Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-18-2013, 01:05 PM   #1
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Spill over

If a person has a relatively high degree of internal development, how would that kind of movement affect conditioning in a "non-internal/aiki" body?

What aspects of internals might spill over "accidentally?"
...Would any?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-18-2013 at 01:10 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 01:44 PM   #2
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Spill over

Matt, I'm not sure I follow.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 02:01 PM   #3
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Spill over

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Matt, I'm not sure I follow.
I'm not sure I led. I've tried to ask this question before but it didn't seem very well formed then either...
I'm curious about the kinds of effects one might get simply by training with people who have a highly developed internal strength process. If O Sensei came up to you and started moving your body around, what, if anything, would be the result as it relates to having IS? I gather from past conversations that many people essentially don't know how they do what they do (w/re: to abilities with IS) and I'm wondering to what exent being able to do something you don't understand might come about simply from having large degrees of exposure to people who do.

How do IS/aiki bodies (highly developed) impact non-IS bodies (not developed) as it relates to making an "aiki body?" Do IS or proto-IS qualities get transmitted simply through interactions?
Another way of asking might be, "what can you get simply from being affected by an aiki body?"

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-18-2013 at 02:09 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 02:13 PM   #4
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Spill over

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I led. I've tried to ask this question before but it didn't seem very well formed then either...
I'm curious about the kinds of effects one might get simply by training with people who have a highly developed internal strength process. If O Sensei came up to you and started moving your body around, what, if anything, would be the result as it relates to having IS? I gather from past conversations that many people essentially don't know how they do what they do and I'm wondering to what exent this might come about simply from having large degrees of exposure to people who do.

How do IS/aiki bodies (highly developed) impact non-IS bodies (not developed) as it relates to making an "aiki body?" Do IS or proto-IS qualities get transmitted simply through interactions?
Well I think that's how the people who got something from him actually got it. When you feel a certain quality from someone enough, it probably clues you in on replicating that quality in yourself, but as we see, that's not a particularly reliable way to get those skills and not a good one when it comes to passing that sliver along to other people. I don't think you can put any hard number on it, but experience tells us it's not much, IMO.

edit: The chinese arts don't seem any different BTW. IMO it takes feeling and good instruction to at least get a foot in the door where you can take more control of your training.

Last edited by chillzATL : 01-18-2013 at 02:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 02:45 PM   #5
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 308
Germany
Offline
Re: Spill over

I am convinced my body understood something by continuously trying to adjust against the subtle attempts of my teacher to take my centre (by which he personally means something that occurs before visible movement). So my body had a some idea of "ground paths" and even an inkling of "stupid jin" before I once went to a seminar with Mike Sigman from whom I take that terminology.

OTOH, much like Jason I do not think its very efficient at all to practice that way, and I do not think it will lead to an "IS body". Well, maybe unless you are amazingly talented.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 09:16 PM   #6
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Spill over

I think mostly not. I've practiced with students of teachers with high-level skills who seemed to have picked up very little from osmosis. Conversely, teachers I know who are successful in passing on skills generally have very explicit ways of describing what they're doing.

Daito-ryu as O-Sensei taught it through the 30's seems to have had explict practices to instill IP skills, solo exercises particularly. After the war, those same exercises seemed to have been treated like warm-ups, optional for aikido practice.

So I'd argue mostly no. If you want to learn them, they have to be taught.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 06:10 PM   #7
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: Spill over

In my perception, what one is learning is how to do things that the teacher is enacting within his own body and transmitting into his uke's body on contact. Uke's body is compelled to move in a mirror set of motions that are amplified versions of what has been created in nage's body, like cogs and gears on a locomotive. If uke is intuitively astute enough, over time and repeated exposure, he will be able to duplicate them.

So, teaching/learning can be by feel, with a minimum of verbal or systematic instruction. In some internal training traditions, some people learned their skills almost wordlessly, by sensation and feel, perhaps in some cases combined with a very cursory and simple set of physical instructions. I wouldn't call it osmosis, but a body intelligence that can sense and parse out complex sensations and positionings, and duplicate them.

However, I do believe that this is why, to learn aiki, one has to have repetitive experience with an adept and willing teacher, at a slow enough rate at first for the student to perceive and parse the sensations. In that respect, it "has to be taught." A person who does not want someone to learn aiki, will not provide the opportunity. They will demonstrate on you, using rapid applications you don't have time to fully sense out and parse where they're coming from, and how.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido Romance? Sara M General 34 06-14-2002 08:27 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:13 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate