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Old 07-17-2002, 01:54 AM   #1
Diablo
Dojo: International Aikido Association
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
Join Date: May 2002
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Have you ever practiced getting stabbed?

Well, actually, trained to prevent getting stabbed. I have read a few posts about dealing with knives, getting stabbed, etc. and I recalled how I used to spar with friends so we would know how to react if this incident occurred. This was before I was in Aikido, so that is why we practiced blocking and then reacting. We would use a fat dry erase marker, the kind made for white-board because they were easy to clean off. We sometimes even used those fat markers used for playing bingo in the bingo halls. (no, I didn't play bingo, but my sister did.)
Anyways, Uke would slash or stab, and nage would block or move and try to keep from getting stabbed or cut while figuring out in his head what he was going to do next. If you got red ink on you, this is where you would have been stabbed or injured. This was good training because after some time, you would learn that the stuff that is on T.V. and the movies wasn't as effective in real life. You never know, your reactions may surprise you and your attacker. Let's just say that on a few occasions, my training was beneficial to me.
I haven't been in Aikido long enough to use it effectively (few months) but now new techniques are in my head, such as move out of the way, blend, or even parry to set them up for a technique. I know that run is an option that someone will add, but I don't want that to be the first option because in reality I need to be prepared for the worse. It has been at least 10 years since I practiced in this manner, but when I did, it was fun and exciting. They make training knives for this, but they are kind of expensive. I was flipping through black belt magazine and ran upon an ad for a training knife called a No Lie Blade.
http://www.nolieblades.com/Products.html but like I had said earlier, it is a little expensive.
Have any of you trained in this manner? In a way that would prepare you for knife attacks to a certain extent? (I know that reality includes getting stabbed in the back, but that is another story)

It's all about connection.
Diablo
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Old 07-17-2002, 08:57 AM   #2
Carl Simard
Location: Quebec City
Join Date: Jan 2002
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For sure, when you're facing an armed opponent when unarmed, you're in big trouble even if you're the living incarnation of O'sensei… The only way to be sure not getting hurt is to prevent the fight or to run… Once you begin to fight, you may get hurt and there's no perfect training for that.

As for training with a marker, it may be somewhat hard to wash. It also don't make the difference between a critical wound and a slight bruise… Why not simply train with a tanto ? Even if it doesn't mark, you know when you have been hit. No need to have a red tag to prove it… If you lie on that, you lie to yourself… You're also able to make the difference between a disabling hit and a bruise… Even if you get cut on the forearm, you may be quite able to apply a technique. As our sensei say, not getting hurt is a "best case scenario". A more realistic one is being hit or cut on the arm when trying to apply a technique, but it's better than being stabbed in the chest at a vital organ…

I don't thing that a costly training aid or knife will make you train better, or worst, than the simple tanto. The "no lie" knife may look good, but, as I said, you know when you have been hit… So, I don't think it's worth the money…
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:46 PM   #3
Diablo
Dojo: International Aikido Association
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
Carl Simard wrote:
(snipped) The only way to be sure not getting hurt is to prevent the fight or to run… Once you begin to fight, you may get hurt and there's no perfect training for that.
This is something that I don't understand. If you read the many posts that are on this forum, even just the last 2 weeks, it is very safe to say that RUNNING from a confrontation is the first and foremost reaction that people recommend. I understand that Aikido basically means "the way of harmony", but when I got into Aikido it was for self-defense. Not to reconcile the good with the evil in this world. Not to put my opponents emotions and physical well being before my own. And certainly not to run like a dog with his tail between his legs from every fight. If your first reaction to physical confrontations is to run everytime, then why pay $60 month after month? In my short exposure to Aikido, nage's have made me tap out to many techniques that cause pain to different joints as well as chokes. I must be a bad Aikidoka because I will make sure that my attacker will think twice about asaulting another victim.

That being said, the reason I wrote this post is give someone an idea on how to defend oneself from a knife using something affordable. The dry-erase markers are easy to wipe off skin. In our dojo, only the black belts practiced with tantos, the lower kyus do not. Also you need to practice without the confines of Aikido. That is, uke needs to attack you in random slashes and jabs. Not in a ritualist movements and motions because the odds are very high that you will not be attacked by a martial artist. Which may also mean that you will need to practice at home or at a park because freeform or freestyle sparring is considered horesplay in our dojo and is frowned upon.

One last thing, a hot topic on Aikido forums is: "can an Aikidoka defend himself from the short, quick jabs of a boxer." Instead of just theorizing on the possibilities, make an effort to find a willing partner and practice. The same holds for this. Instead of pondering or questioning your abbilities in defending oneself from an armed attacker in front of a monitor and keyboard, find a willing partner and have fun.

It's all about connection.

Diablo
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Old 07-17-2002, 03:32 PM   #4
Carl Simard
Location: Quebec City
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Quote:
Sancho Diablo (Diablo) wrote:
... it is very safe to say that RUNNING from a confrontation is the first and foremost reaction that people recommend. ... And certainly not to run like a dog with his tail between his legs from every fight.
Maybe you're taking the "run" a bit too literally. Take "run" in the sense "to evade" the fight, be it by physically running or not. It can be by trying to talk to your opponent and try to lead him to a less agressive stance, it may be by gaining time to let someone call 911...

What I simply means, is that no matter how long, hard, with what or with who you train, if you actually get involved in a real fight, anything can happen and absolutely no MA can assure you that you will not get hurt in the process. It's up to you to evaluate the situation and decide if the fighting is worth what you may gain or lose... And with knives, what you may lose is your life...

To come back to your initial post, we sometime trained with guys from the dojo at the local military base. These guys know very well how to attack with a knife and let me tell you that you have to be a very skilled and experienced aikidoka if you expect to come out without any bruise from a knife fight with one of these guys... And you don't need any special knife to know that you would have been killed or wounded most of the time...

The idea is, no matter how much you train, to not take knife fight as an easy thing or routine technique since even a small mistake may mean severe wounds or even death. The danger is not when you don't know how to handle an opponent when a knife, it's when you think you know how to handle one...

Last edited by Carl Simard : 07-17-2002 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 07-18-2002, 10:21 AM   #5
SeiserL
 
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Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
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My initial training was in Fillipino martial arts (Kali: sticks and knives). When we train (now, in Aikido), I really emphasize being blade conscious. Pay attention to the cutting edge. Keep the attack within the body outline. Use a saber grip. Fancy equipment is fun, but never replaces your conscious awareness.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-18-2002, 09:22 PM   #6
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
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All the time.

Randori Randori Randori

In no way do I think tanto randori teaches you knife fighting but it sure wakes you up to how tough it is to deal with a committed thrust.

Shodokan Honbu visitors will know of whom I speak - but last Saturday Ishibashi-san nearly busted my arms during the tanto dori of Koryu Goshin no Kata. That guy is one hard bastard - never had it so tough.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-18-2002, 10:05 PM   #7
MaylandL
Location: Western Australia
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Quote:
Carl Simard wrote:
...

What I simply means, is that no matter how long, hard, with what or with who you train, if you actually get involved in a real fight, anything can happen and absolutely no MA can assure you that you will not get hurt...

...

The idea is, no matter how much you train, to not take knife fight as an easy thing or routine technique since even a small mistake may mean severe wounds or even death.

...
Yup...I absolutely agree with that. I also like what Mark "The Animal" MacYoung says on his website about knife fighting and facing someone with a knife.
Quote:
PeterR wrote:
...In no way do I think tanto randori teaches you knife fighting but it sure wakes you up to how tough it is to deal with a committed thrust.

...
Yeah, had the same feeling and experience.

Mayland
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Old 07-21-2002, 08:37 PM   #8
Mike Higgins
Dojo: Itai doshin dojo ,Bridgwater,Somerset,U.K
Location: Somerset,England,UK
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Have you ever practised getting stabbed?

Diablo,in answer to your question "has anyone else ever trained this way?",in class today we were taken through two techniques both involving attacks with knives.The 1st attack was uke lunging a forward stab towards nages stomach.Nage would side step the attack holding ukes wrist in his right hand,whilst bring his left elbow down onto the inner elbow joint,this caused ukes arm to bend and point the tip of his blade at himself.Nage would then step forward towards uke and and then push the knife directly into ukes solar plexus,with the pushing power comming directly from the hip turn.This resulted in uke lying on the floor with his own blade stuck in him and without touching the knife yourself,only his finger prints remained on the weapon!!

The second attack was a slashing attack from uke to nages stomach once again.Nage would again side step but this time block in a downward diagonal to ukes outer arm.Nage then stepped in and brought his blocking arm under and over ukes arm and bend it at the inner elbow joint causing his arm to create in a "c" shape.Nage then performed kotegaeshi to ukes wrist whilst simultainiously performing a tenkan,causing uke to end up laying on his back.Nage would then have the option of either pinning ukes arm and releasing the knife from his grip,or as our sensei elequently put it "legging it".

By the way,the knives we were using were rubber bladed traing knives,approx 6" blades,i hope this has been some help to you Diablo.
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Old 07-22-2002, 03:25 PM   #9
Diablo
Dojo: International Aikido Association
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
Join Date: May 2002
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Thanks for your post Mike and Lynn. I am glad to hear someone thinks that I am not totally insane in believing one should train for knife attacks. Is defending yourself against an armed attacker a suicide mission? I don't think so. Chance favors the prepared mind. You stand a better chance of survival if you prepare yourself for the worse. I have been in situations where my attacker pulled out the knife, but didn't have what it takes to use it. His bark was bigger than his bite. I have had 2 charges of assault with a deadly weapon discharged due to self-defense. This was pure streetfighting, way before my Aikido training. But then again, I know people who have NEVER been in a fight, so ALL forms of confrontation are met with fear.

Would I recommend defending yourself to everyone? Most definately not. If you have to question your abilities, then you are not prepared for such extremes.

Back to Akido though, Munetsuki Kotegaeshi or Shomenuchi Ikkyo and others could probably be modified to defend oneself against an armed attacker. Your a lucky man Mike Higgins, because it will be several years before I will be able to do weapons training since only black belts get to do this.

It's all about connection.

Diablo
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Old 07-25-2002, 05:26 PM   #10
Mike Higgins
Dojo: Itai doshin dojo ,Bridgwater,Somerset,U.K
Location: Somerset,England,UK
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RE.has anyone ever practised getting stabbed

Diablo,I totally agree with the statement you made previously,if you are not totally prepared mentally to to perform Tanto-Tori on an attacker then you will inevitably fail and most probably come out of the attack the worse for wear.After only having one Tanto-Tori lesson i would no way feel confident enough yet to try to disarm someone who wanted to stab me to death with a knife/bottle or any other sharp,pointed implement.It will be a long time before i would even contemplate using this type of technique.A slow moving,compliant uke is one thing,a drunk,aggresive person with a knife and the intention to use it is a different ball game altogether.But on the other hand Diablo,Tanto-Tori has taught me to always be aware,that at any given time,an attacker can whip out a blade at any moment,so i have learned to always expect the unexpected,always be prepared for every eventuality,and be positive in your thoughts,once you have commited yourself be sure you can see it through to the end,doubt and a lack of confidence in your abilities will lead you in to far more trouble than being able to walk away from a situation that is more than you can handle

I am hoping that our sensei will provide us soon with some more Tanto-Tori,as i find it one of the most enjoyable techniques

Last edited by Mike Higgins : 07-25-2002 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 07-25-2002, 09:41 PM   #11
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
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If someone whipped out a knife on me, Aikido techniques wouldn't be the first thing that came to mind. I'd try to get hold of an object to use as a weapon/shield or projectile. I'd also think about taking out their knees with kicks... actually, I almost always carry a one-hand-opening folding blade myself, so that would likely come out too. In general, I'd try to keep all my unprotected body parts the hell away from it, not try to finesse the attacker into the air with some kind of irimi, wrist-grabbing fantasy technique.

If you think any amount of tanto-tori as practiced on the mat is sufficient preparation to take on assailants armed with blades in a similar fashion, good luck to you.
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Old 07-25-2002, 10:19 PM   #12
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
If someone whipped out a knife on me, Aikido techniques wouldn't be the first thing that came to mind. I'd try to get hold of an object to use as a weapon/shield or projectile. I'd also think about taking out their knees with kicks... actually, I almost always carry a one-hand-opening folding blade myself, so that would likely come out too. In general, I'd try to keep all my unprotected body parts the hell away from it, not try to finesse the attacker into the air with some kind of irimi, wrist-grabbing fantasy technique.
I agree. Have had a dojomate with some silat experience come after me with a rubber knife...would've been cut to ribbons if I used formal tanto dori techniques. For me, sometimes, if you're very lucky, you get to shoot in for a waki-gatame and take them down like that...otherwise, forget about it. YMMV, of course.

Regards,
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