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Old 08-19-2002, 03:44 PM   #26
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Unhappy

Quote:
Once balance is taken, pain is inflicted, the body follows. If your uke is twisting and wriggling out of your practice technique, I guess it is time to inflict as little pain as possible to reawaken them to the fact that this practice of Aikido is indeed a Martial Art ... not just a squaredance.
I feel a little bad about saying this, but I feel like these ideas are somewhere between dangerous and evil. It is Bruce's perception that some conflict exists, that his uke 'needs' some teaching, that creates his excuse to hurt someone else. I would even say that there is egotism in the idea that the other person will not be able to learn without your 'helping' them through pain.

There is nothing wrong with setting oneself up as a teacher in our own minds. (Well, there is not nothing wrong with it, but it happens a lot and is certainly understandable and easy to identify with.) However, when that illusion excuses hurting other people, we are, as they say, 'no longer doing AiKiDo.' My feeling (and I encounter this a lot and work through a lot of frustration in trying to find answers) is that it is part of my own training to seek other solutions that will communicate the idea.

Of course, sometimes (too often?) I get frustrated and want to make a point and I do end up causing, as Bruce said, 'as little pain as possible' to make a point. I just don't think that is something to glorify or even to justify. It's an excusable mistake, just like when I throw someone wrong because I didn't know how to do the technique and was trying too hard.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-28-2002, 06:00 PM   #27
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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About the failed test, bad uke, and wrestling match?

I would hope that you have trained with enough of the people in the dojo,or where ever you are testing to have them cheer you on in your training, not point you down the dead end road of "your Aikido doesn't work, now go fix it."

I haven't seen this in testing, although it sometimes appears in class with wise acres and visitors ... until they hurt themselves that is.

Be patient. It is just another lesson in training. Use it to be better, not negative to yourself or others.
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Old 09-16-2002, 11:51 AM   #28
Bud
Dojo: Aikido Philippines
Location: Manila
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Re: Re: Re: When someone try to block you

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
Sometimes the uke knows more than you and is trying to make a point, i.e. you're not doing it correctly and they're showing you your weak point.

Other times they stop you for the sake of stopping you.

The hard part is being able to tell the difference...
Yup, I agree. Part of being a good uke is having the ability to show nage his shortcomings by resisting in a constructive manner. The key is really differentiating between the two.

you have roughly 2 kinds of "bad" ukes, the newbie and the idiot. The newbie is more understandable. He or she lacks the experience to realize that his resistance is dangerous to him or herself. Usually a few words with the sensei as well as a few months of "energetic" practice cleans up a lot of their misunderstandings.

The worst of the bunch is the idiot. They're usually a 2nd or 3rd kyu yudansha wannabee, is out to prove something and seriously need attitude adjustment. My response to this is to

A) change technique

B) and / or apply atemi to distract

c) or apply the intended waza at full force

any complaints from such idiots should be disregarded. They're often experienced enough to know that they're screwing w/ you just for the heck of it and IMHO deserve the trashing they usually get. More resistance from them just makes it worse for them as well.

As for deviating from Aikido's "love and peace" ideals, I'd like to think that resistance like this would have been dealt with in a much harsher manner in OSensei's time.

In any case, the sensei should be informed of this behavior and be allowed to handle it on his own terms.
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Old 09-16-2002, 01:35 PM   #29
L. Camejo
 
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Never saw kuzushi (balance breaking) as a distraction. To me it is a necessity... bad kuzushi=even worse technique. Good kuzushi and the technique is just icing on an already well baked cake. To me, atemi is kuzushi using a strike

I take ukes who try to block as a challenge. If the tech does not work, I am probably missing something in my tai sabaki, kuzushi, kake or I'm not relaxed enough.

Viewing it this way it does not matter what uke's motives for blocking you are, if your principles are correct the techniques will work. Of course switching to something else works well too, but it is only something I do when I can't figure out what I missed on the first technique.

Funny how well kuzushi works. It can really make the difference between a real technique and mere motions with the body.

I agree with Peter as well. There is a time for randori and resistance, and a time for kata and minimal or zero resistance, where the intricacies of techniques can be understood and appreciated. The difference must be made explicitly clear.

Oh and about wrestling matches - anything that is forced is not Aikido - (was that Shirata or O-Sensei???) Very sorry to hear that you were failed for that cop's lack of cooperation Edward, but if you guys got into a wrestling match you left your Aikido tactic and went into something else. You would be failed in my dojo for that as well. Whenever we have to "force" or "fight" to apply technique I think we have left the realm of Aikido tactic and gone into another system. We have let the attacker take our centre before physical engagement has even begun.

Hope this helps.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 09-16-2002, 01:42 PM   #30
davoravo
Location: New Zealand
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while I this guy sounds like a prat I would like to point out that ypu said
Quote:
If I do a small pause without applying too much pressure on the lock to let him take the fall without risk, he was instead taking that chance to reposition itself to resist or escape the lock
Even a really willing uke will find it hard not to end up back on balance if you have breaks in your technique. Slow training is great but it has to be flowing or this is what happens.

David McNamara
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Old 10-02-2002, 08:01 AM   #31
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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Response to post #26.

Maybe it is evil to give out pain as a lesson, but within the learning curve of our social society, sometimes that is the only way to get through to people who have made up their minds about the person who stands before them. You can only be nice for so long before the opinions of bigotry, including categorizing someone, become ingrained from constant confirmation due to experience.

Experience proves that nothing is for certain, except that nothing is for certain ... although there are higher percentages for incidents to occur.

Training has to have some pain to validate the causing of movement, neutralizing of opponents capability to retaliate, and having the ability to know when enough is enough.

The very concept of learning to practice a martial art is that there will be a need for physical conflict, and a means to resolve this conflict if words and actions are not enough.

Training will or will not awaken you to the possibilities, such as the minds of those who become terrorists, theives, muggers, killers.

It doesn't mean that it will make you an evil or bad person, but awareness is one of the great training tools for anyones life.

I'll tell you what Opher, see if you can meet me halfway at Okimura' sensei's seminar/ AFOD(That's about halfway to Baltimore), whenever that is, and you can judge for yourself on the value of pain ... I will let you give me pain to see the difference it makes in moving a gorilla, deal?

Last edited by Bruce Baker : 10-02-2002 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 10-02-2002, 09:58 AM   #32
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Hey Bruce,

I've been hoping for a long time that that post of mine would provoke a reponse. I even wondered whether it was an example of exactly what it was supposed to be arguing against.
Quote:
but within the learning curve of our social society, sometimes that is the only way to get through to people who have made up their minds about the person who stands before them.
I certainly agree that it's possible for pain to be the only way of getting a message across. I especially agree if we make it clear that you mean that it's sometimes the only way to get the message across within the limits of my current abilities. That part seems pretty important to me. I've honestly seen that the more proficient I become, the more options I learn for getting my lessons across in other ways.

Still, even if we accept that this may be, in some instances, the only way you can get a particular message across, still there are issues. For instance, it's certainly worth asking how important it is to get that message across. In any situation of conflicting wills, one makes the choice to see it as an opportunity to learn or an opportunity to teach. Just like I would say that a measure of my AiKiDo is my ability to teach without pain, I would also say that another measure is my ability to perceive situations as opportunities to learn rather than opportunities to teach. On this particular measure, my AiKiDo often falls short. I'm often tempted to show the other person what I know in situations and, on later reflection, I realize that what I was really doing was hiding my own ignorance from myself.
Quote:
Bruce wrote:
Training has to have some pain to validate the causing of movement, neutralizing of opponents capability to retaliate, and having the ability to know when enough is enough.

The very concept of learning to practice a martial art is that there will be a need for physical conflict, and a means to resolve this conflict if words and actions are not enough.
Here I think we just have a basic disagreement that words will certainly not resolve and I suspect even a good long session on the mat would not necessarily convince either of us. Still, just to pinpoint the difference, I am going to try rewording what you've said into something that I DO agree with:
Quote:
I wrote:
Many people are unaware of themselves to the point that pain seems to be the only way they can validate moving or understand that they have lost the ability to retaliate. Even if they are being moved or neutralized without pain, they still may not realize it and will have difficulty learning.

The concept of learning AiKiDo is that situations of conflict are seen as an inevitable outgrowth of our failure to harmonize earlier. Because we are all of limited ability, situations of conflict are a fact of our day to day lives. AiKiDo is about learning that however uncomfortable a situation has been created as a result of this disharmony, the most effective and safest answer is one which seeks to restore harmony.
In general, I think there is nothing wrong or evil with feeling that pain has been an important tool in your own process of learning. It may likely have been one. I also think there is no real evil in having caused pain in order to make a particular technique work.

The place where I started to feel strongly enough to throw strong words around is when causing pain to others is justified as an appropriate teaching tool. It may be a common teaching tool, and it may be an effective teaching tool. Still, as a teacher, I think my tendency to cause pain is primarily an indicator of the limits of my abilities rather than an expression of those abilities.
Quote:
I'll tell you what Opher, see if you can meet me halfway at Okimura' sensei's seminar/ AFOD
I'd love to meet you. Can you point me towards the seminar.

No promises that I'll be able to move you, though, or even that I'll try to hurt you if I can't. On the other hand, no promises I won't, either.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 10-02-2002, 04:20 PM   #33
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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I am sure, Opher, that if you cannot move the gorrilla, the very fabric of proper technique will cause me to follow.

When I can't say anymore because the sensei is trying to do it his or her way, I simply relax and force the nage to actually do the classic technique that always works, verses some of the gentle practice that we let beginners get away with.

Maybe you need to be an uke for more demonstrations, and get a few private lessons from shihan to agree with me, but in time, you too will come around to my way of thinking.

By the way, I see they changed the AFOD format at the web site. If you hear about a seminar before I do, send it to me or LBI Aikikai.

Thanks for the verbal skirmish. It was fun.
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Old 10-13-2002, 07:43 PM   #34
Eila Saarni
 
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I've had people resist me during technique, so if they are messing aroung by not letting you move their arm , try to take them off balance, or a pressure point ,below the elbow , well pressing down on that works too, their arm will sort of not be mobiel 'cuz it hurts, so then you do technique,after you take pressure off of course...hmm kind of like working with yong horses..., oh and if you end up really getting into a "sparring" bout wrist control is what should happen, no breaking though.........actually, folowing the technique would be good too ,yeah, you should do the technique....I hope i'm making sense..or not being terribly confusing...
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Old 10-23-2002, 10:36 AM   #35
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Hey folks

just to comment on the pain thang:

last night we were doing hanmi-handachi katatedori shihonage. I was apparently not moving fast enough as uke and Sensei just applied a little more pressure, grinned, and pain shot up my wrist from the nerve bundle.

So there was some pain,applied on purpose, to teach and move...with a grin no less!
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