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Old 01-04-2013, 08:21 AM   #26
sorokod
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm not sure of what your point is - does one true statement mean that other statements must also be true?

Anyway, I've no idea whether or not he was making it up or not - all that I said was to be careful.
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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Tsuruyama had some disputes with other Takumakai members, and some other folks in the Daito-ryu world, none of which is really relevant here.
If irrelevant why did you bring this up?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm not sure of what your point is - does one true statement mean that other statements must also be true?
I am sure that if you take a look you will find more statements in that book that are true. It may include the original statement on the nature of aiki. My point is that you must be as careful not to dismiss information as you are careful to accept information - even if that information doesn't suit your theory.

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:28 AM   #27
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
If irrelevant why did you bring this up?
It was just a casual remark, what's your point?

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
I am sure that if you take a look you will find more statements in that book that are true. It may include the original statement on the nature of aiki. My point is that you must be as careful not to dismiss information as you are careful to accept information - even if that information doesn't suit your theory.
I've read it before. Again, what's your point? Are you saying that Omiya's definition of Aiki is the correct one? What do you base that on? Have you met Omiya? Have you met anybody who's actually met him?

There was a characterization of Omiya as a Daito-ryu "expert". All that I said was, that ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Not all books are entirely accurate.

I haven't talked about his information or his theories, not at all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:48 AM   #28
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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I haven't talked about his information or his theories, not at all.
Very true, you only quoted anonymous sources, and I assumed they reflected your opinion. The only direct comment was "Omiya may be a perfectly nice fellow, once you meet him, but I have my doubts".

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:54 AM   #29
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Very true, you only quoted anonymous sources, and I assumed they reflected your opinion. The only direct comment was "Omiya may be a perfectly nice fellow, once you meet him, but I have my doubts".
Well, I have my doubts because of conversations with people who actually knew and met him. Also, I trained with the Tsuruyama folks, so I can see what he's doing in the photos with relation to what they were doing. That's all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 10:04 AM   #30
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Well, I have my doubts because of conversations with people who actually knew and met him. Also, I trained with the Tsuruyama folks, so I can see what he's doing in the photos with relation to what they were doing. That's all.
For whatever its worth, I think that this is a valid comment to the OP. The one you posted before reads to me like FUD.

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Old 01-04-2013, 10:30 AM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There is much speculation flying around as to what the word "Aiki" may mean. The ideas that seem to pop up the most are:

A) Aiki, is a term that is describing a way to understand, lead, manipulate or physically blend with the mind and intentions of an attacker.

B) A body ability that gives it's practitioner great physical power, making them seem unmovable and strangely forceful.
You can add:
The meaning of aiki in Aikido: Focusing on comments made by Morihei Ueshiba and his pupils
Ryuta Kudo, Fumiaki Shishida
Taiikugaku kenkyu (Japan Journal of Physical Education, Health and Sport Sciences)
Vol. 55 (2010) No. 2
Released: December 28, 2010
[Advance Publication] Released: June 30, 2010 453-469

Abstract:

The main purpose of this study was to verify the process of formation and development of the concept of aiki used by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and his disciples. The main points can be summarized as follows:
1. The term aiki has been used to refer to particular martial arts techniques and to a spiritual state that can be experienced by practicing Aikido. Morihei taught aiki as a technique, as shown in the memorandum of the Japanese Imperial Navy Admiral Isamu Takeshita around 1930. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Morihei Ueshiba's son, also introduced these techniques in his book, "Techniques of Aikido" (1962), etc. However, neither Morehei Ueshiba nor his son explained about aiki in detail. Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda used aiki as a term of technique, but they do not seem to have taught techniques under the name of aiki.
2. Onisaburo Deguchi, the head of Omoto-kyo, used the expressions "the union between a kami and a mortal" in 1921 and "the great love of the kami" in 1935, which Morihei later emphasized in relation to aiki. Omoto-kyo heavily influenced the building of Morihei's thoughts on aiki and Aikido. Aiki was likened to the great love of the Universe, Heaven and Earth, or the kami who nurtures all nature and mortals. In short, a) aiki is the union between the kami as love, and mortals, hence the practice of aiki is the purification of mind and body; b) the practice of Aikido creates a paradise for mortals on earth; c) because the kami does not oppose anyone, a practitioner does not oppose in Aikido. Morihei's thought influenced the policy of the succeeding organization of Aikido through Kisshomaru.
3. Morihei's four main pupils inherited his thoughts through several arrangements. Shioda explained aiki as "a technique for following the laws of nature". Tohei insisted that aiki is "the union between the ki in heaven and earth and a mortal". Sunadomari interpreted aiki as a combative technique and a divine work. Tomiki understood the term in two ways: one is a technique that falls into the category of kuzushi (balance-breaking), and the other is the unity of ki (energy) between nature and man. As to the way that Aikido should develop in the future, we need to study further Morihei's thoughts and their development under his pupils.
Link: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article.../55_09024/_pdf (in Japanese)

Surely someone will provide a translation.

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Old 01-04-2013, 10:39 AM   #32
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There is much speculation flying around as to what the word "Aiki" may mean. The ideas that seem to pop up the most are:

A) Aiki, is a term that is describing a way to understand, lead, manipulate or physically blend with the mind and intentions of an attacker.

B) A body ability that gives it's practitioner great physical power, making them seem unmovable and strangely forceful.
Two sides of the same coin. Aiki is, ultimately, about unification. Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.

Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground. Likewise, technique executed by simply mimicking the movements of the instructor without the application of power that comes from a unified mind and body will result in an honest uke moving through nage like fire through a field of dry wheat.

Both sides in this debate bring added value to the table. Time has come to abandon the dogma that characterizes entrenched positions and approach Aiki in a holistic manner that recognizes its multifaceted nature.

Ron

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Old 01-04-2013, 10:46 AM   #33
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Man, what I'm going to say is going to sound like an attack, and personal, but it's not. If we're going to look at lineage, and teachers, this becomes valid, because we can't have it both ways. If you're going to claim one guy must be wrong because of his credentials, then you'll have to look at everyones credentials.

You reference Dan all the time Chris Li. Dan's credentials are at least as spotty as Omiya's. I know of one high ranking Daito ryu teacher that Dan studied under. If you ask that teacher directly about Dan, he won't give you a reply, he changes the subject. So if you're going to uphold Dan, and say we shouldn't look at his teachers and lineage as a reference, then you can't turn around and attack someone else's credentials, especially if you don't have the whole story.

I'm okay with looking at lineage, if that's what we want to do, I'm okay with not looking at lineage and just looking at some one's work, but we can't play both sides.
Seriously.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:17 AM   #34
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Two sides of the same coin. Aiki is, ultimately, about unification. Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.

Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground. Likewise, technique executed by simply mimicking the movements of the instructor without the application of power that comes from a unified mind and body will result in an honest uke moving through nage like fire through a field of dry wheat.

Both sides in this debate bring added value to the table. Time has come to abandon the dogma that characterizes entrenched positions and approach Aiki in a holistic manner that recognizes its multifaceted nature.

Ron
I'd note that nobody has argued against the validity or utility of moving around, evading, jumping, dodging or any related action as a martial tactic. If you watch Shirata (the source of that "immovable body" quote) you'll notice that he moves about quite a bit.

The difference of opinion comes as to what the definition of "Aiki" is - saying that "Aiki" isn't evasion doesn't mean that evasion is wrong, or even inadvisable. Donuts aren't "Aiki" either, but where would my day be without them?

To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:33 AM   #35
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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I'd note that nobody has argued against the validity or utility of moving around, evading, jumping, dodging or any related action as a martial tactic. If you watch Shirata (the source of that "immovable body" quote) you'll notice that he moves about quite a bit.

The difference of opinion comes as to what the definition of "Aiki" is - saying that "Aiki" isn't evasion doesn't mean that evasion is wrong, or even inadvisable. Donuts aren't "Aiki" either, but where would my day be without them?

To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?

Best,

Chris
Well I would wonder why his arms were dangling between his legs for one.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:37 AM   #36
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.
why end it? the ki war hasn't been ended, then why should the aiki war need to end? it's human nature to be entrenched in our own belief. it has been going on since day one, when Ugg the neanderthal told his budy Arrhhh that mammoth tasted better with steak sauce than with ketchup; wherein Arrhhh promptly clubbed Ugg on the head with a giant smoked turkey leg, that he got at Disney where his kid insisted that he should get one, because it looked cool. if you look back into human history, war and conflict brought about change; otherwise, things would just stagnate. why should it be any different here? it's the same with the war between coffee or tea. and what with the milk stuffs in them?

Quote:
Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.
Ron
I think the statement of "immovable body" needs some clarification. it seemed folks think that "immovable body" meant that one should just stand there to be stabbed. immovable body meant that if you (generic you versus you you versus yu which is a chinese guy selling those white buns of death in china somewhere) are very centered and capable of redirecting forces elsewhere and not moving if he/she/it so choose. and when he/she/it so choose to move, it will be an immovable body on rail, i.e. you moved with very centered. that he/she/it is very difficult being tip over/push over/pull over (unless he/she/it is drunk which will be pull over for DUI), generally not over of some form or fashion. so please folks, when you hear the phrase "immovable body" don't think that i will stand in one place and let you stab me. there is a different between capability and stupidity.

that's my 5 large dongs (dong is money unit in vietnamese) get your mind out of the gutter!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:44 AM   #37
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Donuts aren't "Aiki" either, but where would my day be without them?
blaspheme! donuts are aiki, you heathen! it contains triangle, circle and square! it's holly aiki!

Quote:
To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?
ya, why would you break his arms? what he would he use to hold his nuts while rolling on the ground screaming? nuts and legs are ok, in combo, but not arms! where are your manner?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:01 PM   #38
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?
Personally, I'd say that saying "what wonderful Aiki!" in that situation could very well be considered out of the ordinary, yes. (Unless, of course, you're using your internal training skills to kick the guy in the nuts, heh.)

For the above example, I'd probably also say that I don't think anyone here is saying that 'all definitions of "Aiki" ought to be accepted.' Rather, I think what many are saying is that interpretations of the term "aiki" may have become different than its original meaning(s) and that these (re)interpretations have become commonly and acceptably used. Language (as I know you know, Chris) is constantly evolving, for better or for worse -- like the word "awful" used to mean something more akin to "awesome" (full of awe).

Having said this, I'd like to also also say that I'm not saying that researching the original meaning(s) of "aiki" is unfruitful nor uninteresting, nor am I saying that putting into practice the principles and methods behind the original meaning(s) of "aiki" are such, either. Rather, to keep insisting, seemingly, that people are inherently misguided when they use a different interpretation of "aiki" as they've come to understand it through their aikido training doesn't seem awfully constructive to me.

-- Jun

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Old 01-04-2013, 12:20 PM   #39
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
I think the statement of "immovable body" needs some clarification. it seemed folks think that "immovable body" meant that one should just stand there to be stabbed. immovable body meant that if you (generic you versus you you versus yu which is a chinese guy selling those white buns of death in china somewhere) are very centered and capable of redirecting forces elsewhere and not moving if he/she/it so choose. and when he/she/it so choose to move, it will be an immovable body on rail, i.e. you moved with very centered. that he/she/it is very difficult being tip over/push over/pull over (unless he/she/it is drunk which will be pull over for DUI), generally not over of some form or fashion. so please folks, when you hear the phrase "immovable body" don't think that i will stand in one place and let you stab me. there is a different between capability and stupidity.
It was meant as a metaphor on the limitations of power Phi, not to be taken literally. You will admit that power has its limitations, won't you?

Ron

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Old 01-04-2013, 12:44 PM   #40
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post

For the above example, I'd probably also say that I don't think anyone here is saying that 'all definitions of "Aiki" ought to be accepted.' Rather, I think what many are saying is that interpretations of the term "aiki" may have become different than its original meaning(s) and that these (re)interpretations have become commonly and acceptably used. Language (as I know you know, Chris) is constantly evolving, for better or for worse -- like the word "awful" used to mean something more akin to "awesome" (full of awe).
Very diplomatic. I think that all that you have said about change and evolving is true. However, I think the stickng point is that many people don't want to be told that they way that they are using the term is different from the way that Ueshiba may have used it.

I understand that, you remember how much resistance Stan got when he started saying that modern Aikido was a product of Kisshomaru and Tohei rather than Morihei. That furor, and the memory of it, has died down quite a bit, and it wasn't fueled by online discussion the way that things are now, but people's reactions were quite similar, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:28 PM   #41
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Two sides of the same coin. Aiki is, ultimately, about unification. Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.

Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground. Likewise, technique executed by simply mimicking the movements of the instructor without the application of power that comes from a unified mind and body will result in an honest uke moving through nage like fire through a field of dry wheat.

Both sides in this debate bring added value to the table. Time has come to abandon the dogma that characterizes entrenched positions and approach Aiki in a holistic manner that recognizes its multifaceted nature.

Ron
While I agree with your overall intentions and points I wanted to clarify one thing.
You quoted my tag line of Shirata: PLace the immovable body in an invincible position...you said
Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.
This is not what the immovable body means. It has nothing to do with standing still. Nothing at all. In fact the training that creates the immovable body, is something Ueshiba was deeply immersed in. Push testing constantly. I continue to meet old budo people who verify this as well. But it is the qualities created in that practice that produce a body capable of non-telegraphed, balance movement from center, that is very fast, some say unnaturally so and difficult to track.
Ueshiba knew this and it is why he pursued it. Does anyone care to speculate why he did this so often? Anyone care to at least speculate on the positive side?
Anyone up for the idea that the guy knew what he was doing and talking about?


So Ron. In keeping with your positive spin...and I like your idea..why.....why...can't we meet as brothers instead of fighting over a common goal for Pete's sake

Someone mentioned Heaven/earth/man, how about six direction theory?
Anyone want to speculate ...on the positive side.....why Ueshiba assigned them to aiki and power and 600 years earlier an adept came out of Katori shrine and said the same thing?
Anyone want to ask why the exact same terminology was used in China for the same thing....controlling power?
These things are real teachings. They are body skills that are known. They were NOT UESHIBA'S. He did not create them. He was quoting.
THAT SHOULD BE GOOD NEWS!
Anyone want to speculate...on the positive side.....that maybe....just maybe...there are things in budo that you don't know yet?
Anyone want to speculate...on the positive side....that you might actually enjoy learning something that you actually don't know yet but Ueshiba did, and that it makes your art more effective and fun?
Anyone?
I was so happy...gleeful even...when I was faced with something I simply did not know and all but refused to believe was even possible. So...I was wrong. So what? I was overjoyed that there were in fact secrets that were not widely known and proved to be very effective.
All of us can choose not to fight about these things. We can meet and share information and training. It's already happening
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-04-2013 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #42
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Very diplomatic.
I try.
Quote:
I think that all that you have said about change and evolving is true. However, I think the stickng point is that many people don't want to be told that they way that they are using the term is different from the way that Ueshiba may have used it.
For something like this, what I would personally do is share the research and let it stand on its own rather than, say, using it to seemingly point out how wrong people are with their current (and widely accepted) interpretation.

I have more to say about this, but it'll have to wait, as I really need to look at why my XML feed is not being consumed and parsed correctly by my current XParser handler configuration.

-- Jun

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #43
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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It was meant as a metaphor on the limitations of power Phi, not to be taken literally. You will admit that power has its limitations, won't you?

Ron
sure, the nature of power is limitation. hmmm crap! have no idea why i said that, but it just popped into my head. or was it a quote somewhere. i swear that every good quote has been spoken for. but one needs to explore power to find its limitation and/or one's limitation, does it not?

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:47 PM   #44
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
I try.

For something like this, what I would personally do is share the research and let it stand on its own rather than, say, using it to seemingly point out how wrong people are with their current (and widely accepted) interpretation.
That's something like Stan has done, although I note that he has also posted a number of articles (and lectures) pointing out how wrong people are with their current (and widely accepted) interpretation.

OTOH, times have changed, with the internet things tend to be much more interactive now than they were when Stan first came on the scene - and that means more butting heads. One option would be to remove oneself from the conversation, but I much prefer the current inter-flow, butting heads and all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:54 PM   #45
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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You quoted my tag line of Shirata: PLace the immovable body in an invincible position...you said
Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.This is not what the immovable body means. It has nothing to do with standing still. Nothing at all. In fact the training that creates the immovable body, is something Ueshiba was deeply immersed in. Push testing constantly.
As I posted to Phi, my statement was meant to be taken as a metaphor, not literally. I take no side in this debate. I had the good fortune to learn from an instructor who placed great emphasis on internal work and continue internal training to this day; though via a different training paradigm than you Dan. As a result my Aikido training is a vehicle by which I can study aspects of both A. and B. in the OP.

Ron

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:55 PM   #46
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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sure, the nature of power is limitation. hmmm crap! have no idea why i said that, but it just popped into my head. or was it a quote somewhere. i swear that every good quote has been spoken for. but one needs to explore power to find its limitation and/or one's limitation, does it not?
The power that was discussed by Ueshiba is not the same idea of power we keep talking about. The ability to create *Power* makes aiki. It can make you exquisitely soft and ghosty...as well as be the hammer that projects or hits. They are one and the same thing although being used in a different manner. And it all goes back to a dantian or hara driven body.
Again these things were and are known. It's hard to keep pointing these things out and that most of us (me too) were operating under serious misconceptions about power in budo. We either were too strong (muscular movement) or too soft (noodle arms) or we had to evade. All of which was spoken of as wrong.
Ueshiba's quote of the tora no maki:
Ten units of force being met by 5 and 5 or 7 and 3 and the guest hand/ host hand...all have to do with aspects of the immovable body and heaven/earth/man and they are quoted in the taiji classics as one and the same.
Dan
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:58 PM   #47
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
As I posted to Phi, my statement was meant to be taken as a metaphor, not literally. I take no side in this debate.
Ron
I see. Can you explain what you were trying to say then with this Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.....
Dan
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:37 PM   #48
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I see. Can you explain what you were trying to say then with this Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.....
Dan
Sure. It was a statement regarding the limitations of power showing that B. in the OP may very well be only part of the story. Equally, the statement that came after the one you reference above was intended to point out the same thing about A. in the OP. Both sides of the coin when taken singly have their limitations but when combined together in synergy become applicable to a wider variety of situations and thus expand the tool set of the Aikido practitioner.

Ron

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Old 01-04-2013, 05:45 PM   #49
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You can add:
The meaning of aiki in Aikido: Focusing on comments made by Morihei Ueshiba and his pupils
Ryuta Kudo, Fumiaki Shishida
Taiikugaku kenkyu (Japan Journal of Physical Education, Health and Sport Sciences)
Vol. 55 (2010) No. 2
Released: December 28, 2010
[Advance Publication] Released: June 30, 2010 453-469

Abstract:

The main purpose of this study was to verify the process of formation and development of the concept of aiki used by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and his disciples. The main points can be summarized as follows:
1. The term aiki has been used to refer to particular martial arts techniques and to a spiritual state that can be experienced by practicing Aikido. Morihei taught aiki as a technique, as shown in the memorandum of the Japanese Imperial Navy Admiral Isamu Takeshita around 1930. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Morihei Ueshiba's son, also introduced these techniques in his book, "Techniques of Aikido" (1962), etc. However, neither Morehei Ueshiba nor his son explained about aiki in detail. Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda used aiki as a term of technique, but they do not seem to have taught techniques under the name of aiki.
2. Onisaburo Deguchi, the head of Omoto-kyo, used the expressions "the union between a kami and a mortal" in 1921 and "the great love of the kami" in 1935, which Morihei later emphasized in relation to aiki. Omoto-kyo heavily influenced the building of Morihei's thoughts on aiki and Aikido. Aiki was likened to the great love of the Universe, Heaven and Earth, or the kami who nurtures all nature and mortals. In short, a) aiki is the union between the kami as love, and mortals, hence the practice of aiki is the purification of mind and body; b) the practice of Aikido creates a paradise for mortals on earth; c) because the kami does not oppose anyone, a practitioner does not oppose in Aikido. Morihei's thought influenced the policy of the succeeding organization of Aikido through Kisshomaru.
3. Morihei's four main pupils inherited his thoughts through several arrangements. Shioda explained aiki as "a technique for following the laws of nature". Tohei insisted that aiki is "the union between the ki in heaven and earth and a mortal". Sunadomari interpreted aiki as a combative technique and a divine work. Tomiki understood the term in two ways: one is a technique that falls into the category of kuzushi (balance-breaking), and the other is the unity of ki (energy) between nature and man. As to the way that Aikido should develop in the future, we need to study further Morihei's thoughts and their development under his pupils.
Link: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article.../55_09024/_pdf (in Japanese)

Surely someone will provide a translation.
This is really good.

So I've been reading lot's and lot's on "Aiki" and it's meaning, and found lot's and lot's I didn't expect to find. If I were to make a guess, I would say that Ueshiba used the word "Aiki" in terms of martial arts, almost never, with the exception of referencing "Aiki-do". And that the thing I've called "aiki" for years wasn't really what Ueshiba would have called Aiki, but came to be known through the practice of Aikido (I'm talking about definition A, from the OP). Now Ueshiba does say, in "Budo" that understanding "Aiki" will naturally happen by studying Aikido. So since definition "A" has been learned about through the practice of Aikido, we could make a claim that that is "Aiki" or at least a kind of "Aiki". I think definition "B", and what the "IP" people call "Aiki" would be called, at least in the Iwama system, Kokyu. Which is huge part of Aikido, and you could make the claim that it's so important that you'd call it "Aiki".

The truth is probably that Onisaburo Deguchi came up with the word, and was thinking specifically of spiritual practices. He got Ueshiba and Takeda to adopt the word to their art. The both ran with the word, and so did their students, and we have a dozen, slightly different, legitimate definitions of the word "Aiki".

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Old 01-04-2013, 05:58 PM   #50
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post

The truth is probably that Onisaburo Deguchi came up with the word, and was thinking specifically of spiritual practices. He got Ueshiba and Takeda to adopt the word to their art. The both ran with the word, and so did their students, and we have a dozen, slightly different, legitimate definitions of the word "Aiki".
This discussion happened years ago, didn't it? Pre-Ueshiba use of the word "Aiki" is pretty well documented. Check out the cover of "Budo Hiketsu: Aiki no Jutsu", from 1900, on this page.

Best,

Chris

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