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Old 01-03-2013, 09:08 AM   #126
gregstec
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
If you're implying that Peter didn't think much of Dan...then I suppose that it's best to talk to Peter directly about that. My impression however, based on conversations directly with Peter (not some ni-dan who sees him at seminars) is quite diferent.

Best,

Chris
Ditto to what Chris said - I was there when Peter first met Dan.

Greg
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:35 AM   #127
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Vantage points

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Ditto to what Chris said - I was there when Peter first met Dan.
My reply to Chris stands: Mr. Bernath, although "exposed to this work," does not seem to have adopted it explicitly in the seminar classes he is teaching. Why is that?

Jim

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Old 01-03-2013, 09:38 AM   #128
MM
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Re: Vantage points

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,

I'm not implying anything of the kind. I'm simply reporting that Mr. Bernath, although "exposed to this work," does not seem to have adopted it explicitly in the seminar classes he is teaching. Because you know Mr. Bernath (I do not), you might ask him why that is.

Jim
I know Peter. I have a lot of admiration and respect for Peter. So, from one person attending a recent Summer Camp and taking a few classes there, your point is? It's the official USAF Summer Camp. Had I been attending, I would have expected to train in USAF material. If I go to an ASU Camp, I expect the same thing. These, to me, are where you get to train with other people, shihan, and high muckety-mucks of that organization in that organization's material.

What's your point here? Did you contact Peter directly and ask him about this before you dragged his name out in public? Why not? It's common courtesy and you might get answers directly from the source.

Mark
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:50 AM   #129
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
My reply to Chris stands: Mr. Bernath, although "exposed to this work," does not seem to have adopted it explicitly in the seminar classes he is teaching. Why is that?

Jim
Well, I've spoken to Peter about just this point before - if he wants to talk about it publicly, then he will, if not, then I suggest you contact him directly.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-03-2013, 09:57 AM   #130
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Re: Vantage points

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, I've spoken to Peter about just this point before - if he wants to talk about it publicly, then he will, if not, then I suggest you contact him directly.
I agree with Chris on this.

-- Jun

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Old 01-03-2013, 10:00 AM   #131
Cliff Judge
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Re: Vantage points

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I happen to know (as Howard mentioned) that it is indeed authentic, verifiable, and credible. It's also private - although Dan was never hesitant to discuss it in my hearing.

Notice that nobody's asked for verification of your lineage as qualification to put out your ideas.

Anyway, Dan mentioned that it doesn't matter, and he's absolutely right.

Best,

Chris
I don't believe it should matter, but it is unavoidable. Whenever a claim is made that this material has anything to do with Ueshiba - let alone that it is the true, inner secret of Aikido - and this claim is made and goes unrefuted in public, then there needs to be something to back that up, publicly. Something authentic, verifiable, and credible. I'd be much more comfortable with this being just about Dan.

Nobody needs a lineage to put out ideas. Putting out ideas is different than teaching. Were I to ever teach you can bet your life I would be entirely forthright and open about who I trained with and how I developed my skills. If I had my name and/or blood on a document forbidding me from divulging the source I would not publicly discuss ideas I gained or were seeded by that source. Maybe I am not perfect in this regard but I work on it.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:05 AM   #132
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Re: Pertaining to the seeds of rancor

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
No, I said no such thing. What I said was, "This line of argument that one group is "better" than the other has no place in a discussion forum. Please stop."

Just because you (the generic "you" in this case) might be able to best someone in a physical altercation does not have bearing to a discussion. That is one line of argument that I do not want to see here on AikiWeb.
I think I understand what you meant. Wasn't how I took your post, so my apologies for misreading/misunderstanding you. FWIW, I don't see any "group" as better. I do see IP/aiki as making differences in martial contexts, though. So, in that light, those aiki legends (Ueshiba, etc) did prove better than most. But, that certainly doesn't mean anyone who has the availability to train IP/aiki couldn't replicate what they did.

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Please stop putting things into my mouth, Mark. I have never said any such thing.
I never said you did. One of the downsides to taking a very limited, unseen approach to managing a forum is that people don't know what you want. I can't read your mind. Sometimes, it does seem like you want IP/aiki to go away. Sometimes it doesn't. I really didn't know. I'm still unsure. But, I'd guess it isn't a Modern Aikido only thing. So, again, Jun, my apologies.

Sorry it took so long to reply. December has been a rough month...

Mark
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:06 AM   #133
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Re: Vantage points

I have permission to say some father startling things that Peter has shared with me....but I wont. They are deeply felt and although they would directly benefit my talking points seeing them used and kicked about is ugly to me.
As I said before.
Can anyone -without an agenda- think of any positive reason for him waiting?
I bet not.
Dan
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:08 AM   #134
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Re: Vantage points

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Well, it seems to me that most questions do arise from a lack of knowledge, sir.
Research will get you answers. If I remember correctly, there are posts here on Aikiweb that state Dan's lineage. Have you looked for it?
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:08 AM   #135
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Re: Vantage points

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,

I'm not implying anything of the kind. I'm simply reporting that Mr. Bernath, although "exposed to this work," does not seem to have adopted it explicitly in the seminar classes he is teaching. Because you know Mr. Bernath (I do not), you might ask him why that is.

Jim
Jim
Some more perspective here.....the work is really hard.....not physically tiring..rather mentally and it goes against a lot on what one's current movement/motion is based on. I know that Dan has been doing this practice and his solo work for years, that he does it every day and puts time into it. I know that he has created for himself specialized training methods (see Segawa) that fit him. I know he has several outstanding students with great skills working with him locally.....that have been training with him for years and with each other in a single location.....this is what it takes..... One needs a) introduction to the idea and concepts of IP/IS, b) a set of starter solo practices to get one off the mark, c) the willingness to develop personalized drills and aids, d) people of like mind to practice with to help baseline, e) someone to check back with (like Dan) to make corrections as needed, and f) TIME-TIME-TIME (like years) to develop any level of proficiency.

It is ready hard to just make oneself go out into the garage and work solo. It is really had to find folks to work with. The few times I have included some of the concepts and ideas I got from Dan into my teaching I get blank stares and wrinkled brows. The truth here is this work is self-selecting. The effort I have to make is how do I include some of the ideas into the training to get something across to the folks that improves their Aikido?

So that Peter Bernath didn't exhibit a total change over after visiting with Dan one or two times is understandable to me.

Gary
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:19 AM   #136
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Re: Vantage points

Touche

The vast majority of my aikidoka friends joke with me or look at me like I have two heads when I talk about the exercises and demonstrate them. They're not really interested, but then that's their perogative.

I just put my head down and get on with it. Why would a Shihan start trying to transmit this stuff after one seminar??

Regards

Last edited by Chris Knight : 01-03-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:35 AM   #137
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Re: Vantage points

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
If you're implying that Peter didn't think much of Dan...then I suppose that it's best to talk to Peter directly about that. My impression however, based on conversations directly with Peter (not some ni-dan who sees him at seminars) is quite diferent.
* "Are your standards higher than 17 Shihan, 6 6th dans and 52 go dans and hundreds of others?"
* "but it sure has changed the minds of over a thousand Aikido people from shodan to shihan."
* "Would you be surprised if I listed four shihans and two Koryu sokes who said the same thing in 2012?"

all quotes from this thread. Shame they aren't scrutinized as intensely.

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Old 01-03-2013, 10:44 AM   #138
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Re: Pertaining to the seeds of rancor

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Sometimes, it does seem like you want IP/aiki to go away. Sometimes it doesn't. I really didn't know. I'm still unsure.
Quickly, as I'm pretty busy right now at work, but I'll just say that it is not my intention to push away any sector of aikido practice. To be clear: I am not trying to make internal training discussions to go away.

With that said, I will be succinct (and perhaps blunt) here when I say that the tone employed on AikiWeb by many of those who engage in internal training practices has become unacceptable. Additionally, I believe that many of the lines of arguments brought forth by those who engage in internal training methods do not support civil and respectful discussions but, rather, only lead to creating division and rancor. These, I wish to see changed (ie eliminated), and I will be addressing these points in the near future.

-- Jun

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Old 01-03-2013, 10:46 AM   #139
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
Another thought here is what hard work is involved with the solo training offered by Dan (and others) and how long it may well take to achieve a level of proficiency that provides useful results, results without thinking. Many will not take the time and will drop the practice if they don't see results the following week or so. Some will see the level effort needed to even get started and be underwhelmed..... It is easier to be underwhelmed than do the time.

Gary
Adding on to that thought --

1. When feeling this stuff for the first time, even the first few times, it doesn't register in our brains what we are feeling and where it’s coming from. We look for something familiar to connect it to, and that familiar something usually is physical strength. Some of the underwhelmed are those who just write off what they are feeling as being conventional muscle power and body mass/weight, particularly if the person demonstrating is large and muscular. We are conditioned to equate size with physical power. Of course, that notion is quickly dispelled once smaller, slighter practitioners start demonstrating on the big guys. But if there aren't any present, some individuals may come away less than impressed because they couldn't discern the skills as separate from the physical size and appearance of the individual.

2. Some folks attending a seminar geared toward beginners and newcomers, mistakenly think that the introductory seminar curriculum represents all there is to the method. Furthermore, attending just one or even a few IP seminars, without really doing the work after and in between is not enough to inculcate skills or fully appreciate their value. It takes a couple years of serious effort to start seeing the real effects and to understand what one is doing with his or her body. To be able to apply the skills and maintain the body state under duress takes even longer. Therefore, people who attend one or a couple of IP seminars and then state that they don’t see any benefits, simply don’t have the level of skill and understanding yet and are writing off the training’s value prematurely. As with any discipline, we must be motivated to truly do the work in order to gain the benefits.

3. If the presenter doesn't perform Amazing Feats to awe the crowd, those who come expecting a magic show will be... underwhelmed. Even more so if the teacher parses out the material into bite-sized pieces of information and basic exercises that demystify the subject and the process and lay out the path to development, step-by-step. For a few this may make it seem ordinary and unimpressive, particularly if they get caught up in the component pieces, mistake training exercises for the skills themselves, and fail to see the big picture. For the rest, the vast majority of us, though, the wonder of IP and aiki become even greater once the mystique is dispelled and we begin to understand how it works.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:47 AM   #140
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Vantage points

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Touche

The vast majority of my aikidoka friends joke with me or look at me like I have two heads when I talk about the exercises and demonstrate them. They're not really interested, but then that's their perogative.

I just put my head down and get on with it.
Go old school and clean the mats with them so they open their eyes to Budo.

Joking, of course.

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Old 01-03-2013, 10:58 AM   #141
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Vantage points

Hi,

Sorry to interrupt but earlier in this thread a comment was made concerning koryu and the propriety of allowing individuals to inspect a document like a menkyo kaiden. I cannot speak for all koryu but most individuals I know who hold official licenses in koryu will be more than happy to present theirs for examination. Heck, last year I rolled my menkyo kaiden out on the floor at a seminar in Berlin, Germany and allowed a Japanese Wado ryu shihan to translate it the the attendees. It is true we have other more "restricted" documentation in a school like TSYR but teaching licenses generally do not usually contain restricted information, and when they do, its presented in such an obscure manner that only initiates to the school could interpret it properly. Teaching licenses like menkyo kaiden are intended to be scrutinized.

The net out? Anyone who claims to have a license in a koryu but refuses to allow anyone access to it is...Well....Probably selling ocean front property in Colorado.

Back to your discussion.....

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 01-03-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:01 AM   #142
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post

The vast majority of my aikidoka friends joke with me or look at me like I have two heads when I talk about the exercises and demonstrate them. They're not really interested, but then that's their perogative.

I just put my head down and get on with it. Why would a Shihan start trying to transmit this stuff after one seminar??

Regards
i have the same experience with my aikido folks. most don't have the inclination or the drive/obsession to do this stuffs. most just want to know how to do aikido techniques and in some new ways. i just slided some of these stuffs into the warm-up routines, but not telling them about it. wait a minute, didn't Shirata sensei did just that? yup, i hid the thing in plain sight (sorry for using your phrase Ellis). i wouldn't be surprise that some of the aikido teachers who had exposure to IP/IS do the same thing and not bother to explain it. i am sure they would explain to folks who are persistance in asking. sort of a test. do you have the right aptitude to learn this stuffs? why teach the uninterested? you want it? you have to fight for it and work for it. old school approach.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:24 AM   #143
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Vantage points

Hello Peter,

Happy New Year to you as well! Thank you for your considerate response to my "random questions." I do not wish to derail this thread too much by going further into your observations and comments. Thus, I just send you a PM which you may find interesting as it addresses this passage of yours…

Quote:
I can see someone in future producing The IP Morihei Ueshiba, with a translation specially geared to IP training.
Cheers

Ernesto
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:26 AM   #144
sakumeikan
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Re: Vantage points

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Thank you very much!
I did.
Dear Carsten,
Hope the info helped . Good to chat with you.Cheers, joe
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:39 PM   #145
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Well, it seems to me that most questions do arise from a lack of knowledge, sir.
You are correct, but there is a way to question someone that implies an intentional lack of honesty.

Sometimes, especially when on the internet, it is difficult to read the feeling of intent behind one's statements.

I prefer face to face myself.

Hope this helps

Howard
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:55 PM   #146
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
My reply to Chris stands: Mr. Bernath, although "exposed to this work," does not seem to have adopted it explicitly in the seminar classes he is teaching. Why is that?

Jim
Really ?

You have a 40+ year SHIHAN who studies something else and you expect him to start teaching it at a seminar ?

Case in point, I went to an Aikido seminar in New Jersey.

The woman teaching the seminar was quite skilled at Aikido. I am not. My aikido stinks. I can't move like that, just not trained that way. I looked like a fool, stumbling over my feet.

Why would a Shihan alter what he was doing until he was an expert at the new movement ? ESPECIALLY AT A SEMINAR, IN PUBLIC???? Playing with a few of his own people, maybe.....

Sounds silly to me, but then again, what do I know.

Howard
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:17 PM   #147
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Re: Vantage points

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,

I'm not implying anything of the kind. I'm simply reporting that Mr. Bernath, although "exposed to this work," does not seem to have adopted it explicitly in the seminar classes he is teaching. Because you know Mr. Bernath (I do not), you might ask him why that is.

Jim
An observation,
Maybe as Dan has said , it is not all about Dan, "Its about the work". Exactly the point, does so and so , ranked so high in the whatever organization, down to the last man say I am now enamored with Dan Hardens point of view. Or does he just have to be enamored enough with the IS/IP work to change what he is doing. No one , is trying to blow up the USAF or any other Aikido organization here, and yet that seems to be where the conversation leads....everytime.
As a pretty low ranking so and so in an Aikido organization(notice how i dont have to drop names here)I dont see why there is conflict , unless , someone is not telling the whole truth. So exactly what does the Organization have to hide? What are they protecting? I am able to observe both sides of this argument(being low rank and not caring about title holding) and can tell you Dan is just about preserving the work and incorporating it into Aikido , back where it belongs amongst others

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:24 PM   #148
Cliff Judge
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Re: Vantage points

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
An observation,
Maybe as Dan has said , it is not all about Dan, "Its about the work". Exactly the point, does so and so , ranked so high in the whatever organization, down to the last man say I am now enamored with Dan Hardens point of view. Or does he just have to be enamored enough with the IS/IP work to change what he is doing. No one , is trying to blow up the USAF or any other Aikido organization here, and yet that seems to be where the conversation leads....everytime.
As a pretty low ranking so and so in an Aikido organization(notice how i dont have to drop names here)I dont see why there is conflict , unless , someone is not telling the whole truth. So exactly what does the Organization have to hide? What are they protecting? I am able to observe both sides of this argument(being low rank and not caring about title holding) and can tell you Dan is just about preserving the work and incorporating it into Aikido , back where it belongs amongst others
So if it is just about "the work" where does it come from?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:30 PM   #149
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Re: Vantage points

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
Another thought here is what hard work is involved with the solo training offered by Dan (and others) and how long it may well take to achieve a level of proficiency that provides useful results, results without thinking. Many will not take the time and will drop the practice if they don't see results the following week or so. Some will see the level effort needed to even get started and be underwhelmed..... It is easier to be underwhelmed than do the time.

Gary
There is another perspective. This perspective is simply "would it be worth my investment of time". So let's say, Dan has some ability that no one else has. He's far better at it than anyone else. But no one knows exactly what Dan is doing, even Dan. No one has taken the time to really investigate what is happening, and understand what makes Dan's approach unique and "better". So you spend lot's of time learning what Dan is teaching you to do, but that's not actually what gives Dan his special ability. You end up wasting lot's of time, doing something that wasn't actually what gave Dan his ability.

This is the problem with "IHTBF". So you feel it, and it's impressive, and you want to do it. How do you learn how to do it? From nothing I've read here I Aikiweb can I ascertain what Dan is doing. When asked specific questions, all one gets in reply are references to Ueshiba, quotes from the Taiji classics, and lot's of talk of how it's been done in "open rooms" or how almost 100% of people now think this is best. These things don't tell us anything that about why "IHTBF" and can't be described in a coherent way.

Now I know among the "IP" crowd, there are red flags going up. Because there is this feeling that it has been explained, but it never has been. I would point to Hunter Lonsberry's thread "is aiki clash of forces" (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=318999) in this thread you can see where several attempts were made to get to the bottom of what people mean by the terms they are using. Very little was discovered. For example we never got to the bottom of what people mean when they use the word "dan tien". This is suppose to be a core principle in Dan's body method. Yet what the word is referencing is unknown. There are not standard explanations for any of the things that are suppose to explain what is happening. What are the duel opposing spirals made of, what do they spiral around/in/on? This a question that seems to be at the very heart of the issue, yet is never answered.

So why would anyone take on this practice, especially if it's going to take a long time to learn? If you were blown away by the demonstration of "IP", then maybe you are willing to take it on faith alone. Maybe, if you're a very trusting person, taking it on some "authority's" word, maybe enough. But I have been down the "trust me" road before, and I would like to see some proof that there are results at the end of the road.

When most "IP" people are pressed about what they've learned I hear again and again, something to the effect of, "well I'm not really that good, so I couldn't demonstrate it, but you should see so-and-so". This, in and of it self tells me that the methods to train this body skill are not very effective, even if the body skill is impressive. After all the years of debate we've had, there should be hundreds of people popping up showing this stuff. Yet I only see the same small number of names presented again and again. Why would you devote yourself to a long training period, with so little proof that you are going to get anything from it?

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Old 01-03-2013, 02:42 PM   #150
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Re: Vantage points

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It is a done deal. I think you are basing the reality of what we are doing on some sort of uneducated consensus among the western folk.
We don't need a Sudanese child to know about Algebra in order to make Algebra a "done deal." There is no requirement that Chris Hein know about this in order to make it a done deal. This debate was over a long time before you or I were born.
Which debate are we talking about? There are several going on.

One debate is whether the stuff you are doing has anything to do with what Ueshiba was doing. That debate is still in full swing, and if we diligently pursue this debate, it will probably be going long after you and I are both dead.

Another debate we are having is whether what you are doing is different than anything you can find in modern athletics. This debate is still going on, and will go on until we can get some serious studies done- if it ever makes it that far. So that debate is still raging.

These are only two of the larger debates that we are having, both are far, far from being over.

Quote:

I have been proving what I say for quite a while in rooms filled with dozens of people and I may be on the downward side of that soon. This isn't the wild west where I have to prove it to every gun slinger.
I believe there is a huge difference between "proving" and "showing". If a magician ( I know I'm going to get into trouble with this analogy...) Shows a huge audience of people he that he can "fly", that is not "proving" it. It's simply a demonstration. Demonstrations are all fine and well, but they don't begin to approach a proof.

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