Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-23-2011, 08:52 AM   #1
Siteofthor
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

I am currently studying Tomiki Aikido. We have 17 basic moves and then 10 big throws and then I'm not sure from there. We also do a little bit of hand randori and we do alot of chaining. Chaining, as I'm sure most of you know, is when you combine various aikido movements and use different techniques depending on how the opponent is resisting and how the moves are working at the time. I'm wondering if I move a a dojo that is more Hombu or Aikikai style if they do any of this chaining? I find it incredibly useful. Expecting for things not to work and to have the practice or ability to use different techniques to move with and use the other persons energy and to not go against their resistance I think is quite useful.

Thanks,

Jon
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 10:51 AM   #2
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,121
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

I've not heard the term "chaining" before, but from your description it sounds like what we call "henka waza" or a change of technique. A series of changes is called "renzoku waza", at least in the AAA, an Aikikai style. In most classes we stick with the demonstrated technique and don't do a henka waza. Instead we try to learn where and why the original technique failed. We sometimes will have classes devoted to henka waza and those are always fun to do. Renzoku waza classes are a lot of fun, but are difficult as the instructor will call out how many changes he wants as you start and you may be asked to do three, four, or even more with the same attack. If those are the same as chains, you'll find them in most dojo.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #3
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Once you get to the San Kata, you will see more similarities to Aikikai style Aikido.

The 17 basic techniques, along with the walking and releases, are the building blocks to hundreds of variations.

The 17 I learned are very direct and don't reply on the circular movements you will see in other styles.

Karl Geis or one of his students are the only ones I know of that do chaining.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 02:00 PM   #4
Siteofthor
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Thanks for the info everyone.

Tim, wow you seem to be pretty knowledgable there. Yes I am actually training Kihara Aikido or Karl Geis's form of Tomiki Aikido. So is chaining different from what they were saying on the previous posts and how so? Also I have been told we have the 17 techniques as you mentioned and then we have our releases from wrist grabs and we have 10 throws. Is that all that there are typically or you are saying after you learn those you have katas? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks! Jon
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 02:11 PM   #5
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,121
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

I am not sure how closely related what Karl Geis teaches is to what Nick Lowry teaches but here is Nick Lowry's;

webpage:http://www.kazeutabudokai.com/phpBB3/

with online Aikido lessons,

http://www.kazeutabudokai.com/phpBB3...f696ea10d0ca44

http://www.kazeutabudokai.com/phpBB3...f696ea10d0ca44

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 05:22 PM   #6
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
So is chaining different from what they were saying on the previous posts and how so? Also I have been told we have the 17 techniques as you mentioned and then we have our releases from wrist grabs and we have 10 throws. Is that all that there are typically or you are saying after you learn those you have katas? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks! Jon
There are many kata (6 of them plus Goshin-Jitsu) you will learn if you study long enough. San kata is the first one you learn since you have to learn portions of it to get to Shodan. These 6 kata are called the Koryu no Kata. There are also counters to all the 17.

Chaining is unique to Karl's system although Tomiki Aikido, and I'm sure any other style, has techniques that compliment each other. These are usually due to a push and pull relationship.

In the chaining, you weave back and forth by circling, then going down the line etc. No other style I know of does this. This way you are constantly hitting Uke's off balance.

Karl's Judo background gave him a great understanding of Tomiki Aikido. He modified the system in some areas and dropped the tanto randori. He came up with an alternate randori system that, to me, seems more practical.

Basically the Big 10 (Owaza Ju Pon) are techniques where Uke and Tori's centers separate from each other. In the 17, their centers come together.

Nick Lowery was a student of Karl's and has a youtube channel with a lot of good info.

There's also a book by Dr. Lee Ah Loi called "Tomiki Aikido: Randori 7 Koryu no Kata" which has all the kata listed and is a handy reference.

Hope this helps.

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2011, 12:26 PM   #7
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Chaining is a nice term. However Tomiki Shihan and Hideo Ohba Shihan referred to Chaining as "transitioning" from 1 technique to another without hesitation applying what technique(s) presented themselves. We do a lot of "backhand" randori which requires a person to be able to transition from 1 technique to another without hesitation. Kihon No Kata (17 basic moves) and the 10 counters are a classic to transitioning. The Koryu dai san kata and Koryu dai ni katas are great also for transitioning.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2011, 04:38 PM   #8
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

I think the term is renraku 連絡 waza meaning connected, linked or chain techniques. This term is used in Kodokan Judo practice and many of Tomiki Sensei's students were also judoka so the term was used for linked or "a chain" of techniques. This sort of understanding of connected techniques is used by well-trained judoka everywhere I've trained in the world. The term henka 変化 waza, meaning modified, or a variation is not the same.

The place where renraku waza is really developed is in randori geiko. The practice in most aikido systems that is called randori is not the same as judo randori geiko or the randori of those who have trained in Tomiki Sensei's aiki method.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2011, 08:43 PM   #9
Philip Hornback
Dojo: Gentle Wind Dojo Baton Rouge, La.
Location: livingston, louisiana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 9
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

So renraku waza would be a set of prearranged techniques or counters? For instance, you do #1 and I do #10 and you do #4(of the junana kihon no kata). Almost like a kata within a kata?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2011, 11:48 PM   #10
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

The best answer is renraku waza is a string of waza that fit possible reactions, counters, etc. to a technique. For instance, If shomen ate is countered by an attempted wakigatame, gedan ate is an answer that will counter the wakigatame. How deep you go depends on your skill level. Good kuzushi must be working, of course. If your balance is taken, the recovery should not be back where you were, but recovery of a viable posture and taking the sente back from the other person at the same time. Renraku waza is the ongoing connected changing into whatever waza fits the situation as it evolves. This involves dynamic, intuitive, creative decision making on the go.

There are basic "chains" of waza that can be practiced slowly while staying connected and flowing until one person can't make an answer to a problem. As skill improves, this sort of drill can become very fast and "juicy"... If the chains are preset, then it's a drill. If it's not preset, then it's randori geiko. Of course, the ultimate goal is to slick the aite with the first waza whenever possible... at first touch.

This is one of the main ways that I train and teach along with tandoku undo and sotai kata geiko. Difficult to talk about and more difficult to do without proper training.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 03:09 PM   #11
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

I just noticed in my post above that I meant to write "the best answer that I can give..." and I didn't get all of it entered... :-)

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2011, 11:42 PM   #12
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Sorry to be pedant:

連続 - renzoku - "continuation, continuous"

連絡 - renraku - "make contact, get in touch with"

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 04:07 AM   #13
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Sorry to be pedant:

連続 - renzoku - "continuation, continuous"

連絡 - renraku - "make contact, get in touch with"
Hello Josh,

I thought the same, until I checked 柔道連絡技 on Google co.jp.

http://www.judo-ch.jp/dictionary/terms/renraku/

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 04:37 AM   #14
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

In judo they are both specialist terms for combinations. Renzoku waza are continuous attacks and usually in the same direction, breaking through the defences by hitting them again and again. For example forward techniques - so uke is thrown backwards - starting with o uchi gari and switching to ko uchi gari.

Renraku waza are combinations using the reaction of the uke so usually there is a change in direction. So for example if uke defends against being thrown backwards by o uchi gari if you switch to uchimata uke can be thrown forwards easily using the uke's own reaction.

This question was asked on judoforum.com

Quote:
Kodokan New Japanese-English Dictionary of Judo's definitions.

renraku waza [combination technique] The application of several techniques in rapid succession, moving from one to the next in a smooth, unbroken sequence.

renzoku waza [continuous combination of techniques] The continuous application of combinations of techniques, one leading into the next.

連絡技 技から技へ連絡する技。

連続技 次から次と続けて掛けていく技のこと。

Last edited by niall : 06-28-2011 at 04:40 AM.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 04:24 PM   #15
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Thanks for the interest guys... I'm just going on what I learned from my teachers and seniors. I wish I had become fluent in the language as you have so I wouldn't have to depend on others.

Your input has given me more understanding of what they were trying to teach me. Good lessons.

Best regards,

Chuck

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 09:41 PM   #16
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

I stand corrected! Should have known better than to think Chuck Clark wouldn't know his stuff.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 09:18 PM   #17
JP3
 
JP3's Avatar
Dojo: Wasabi Dojo
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 168
United_States
Offline
Re: Tomiki\Hombu Difference?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
I am currently studying Tomiki Aikido. We have 17 basic moves and then 10 big throws and then I'm not sure from there. We also do a little bit of hand randori and we do alot of chaining. Chaining, as I'm sure most of you know, is when you combine various aikido movements and use different techniques depending on how the opponent is resisting and how the moves are working at the time. I'm wondering if I move a a dojo that is more Hombu or Aikikai style if they do any of this chaining? I find it incredibly useful. Expecting for things not to work and to have the practice or ability to use different techniques to move with and use the other persons energy and to not go against their resistance I think is quite useful.

Thanks,

Jon
Great discussion of the language behind the answer you guys. I've always just described the difference between renzoku-waza & renraku-waza as the difference between attempting ko-uchi gari and failing that throwing uke with o-uchi gari in basically the same direction as originally intended (Renzoku); and trying ippon seoinage and when uke blocks/moves throwing him with osoto gari in the basic opposite direction as originally intended (renraku).

In the "typical" Tomiki pedagogy, we have the walking kata (muscle-memory drills of proper posture and movement), the 8 releases (2 to the third ways to grab the other humahn = 8), and the very distilled 17 basic techniques of the initial kata we teach and learn. The 17 (originally 15 and now up to 23 under Sensei Geis, who isn't my teacher but he's way good mojo) are what are usually called the Randori-no-kata or Junana-Han (if 17).

Then, Riki Kogure (and others) came up with the Owaza Jupon (Big 10) in order to teach lumbering westerners how to move (that's the story I was told, and it makes sense when you hear Yoji Kondo tell it).

After you get the above, which takes you past shodan, then you go backwards in time to the Koryu katas 1-6, and can do the aikido version of Goshin Jitsu, etc. There's PLENTY to learn, trust me.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now? carlo pagal General 50 01-14-2009 05:36 AM
What is the difference in Aikido styles? flamekiller General 24 04-23-2007 11:58 PM
Difference between USAF and AAA redsoxfan General 2 10-30-2004 02:43 PM
Whats the difference? C. Emerson General 34 08-21-2003 06:43 PM
Difference? Dean H. General 4 10-01-2002 04:33 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:32 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate