Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2015, 10:36 AM   #1
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
Singapore
Offline
Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

I refer to my previous thread regarding aikido as a striking art. I was wrong.

Wrong on the basis that while aikido is not a grappling art. It is a striking art. This is because, like most martial artists would say, striking and grappling are concepts for competitive fighting or sport-based combat.

Aikido is a traditional art, or more specifically, has roots to traditional martial arts.

And traditionally, combat involves weaponry of a sort. Either the art utilizes weaponry, or deals with opponent wielding weaponry, or both.

Therefore, aikido is an art of weapons. And to understand Aikido and its effects, one should train with a blade in one hand.

Apologies for my previous misconceptions.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 11:23 AM   #2
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,023
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

The elephant is very like a spear...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 01:15 PM   #3
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,201
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
The elephant is very like a spear...

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 01:48 PM   #4
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Would you care to share what brought you to this change of heart?

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 02:33 PM   #5
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,565
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
And to understand Aikido and its effects, one should train with a blade in one hand.
Most errors in applying aikido are improved or corrected by the student answering two questions:

"Where is your blade?' and "Where are you cutting?"

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 02:41 PM   #6
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 332
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Folks
Most of you are not old enough to remember Felix the Cat and his magic bag of tricks. The bag could be shaped into anything Felix needed to do whatever he needed to do. For each of us our Aikido should be like Felix's bag.....shape it into whatever you need and adapt that bag to the circumstances and environment around you at any given moment.
Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 03:25 PM   #7
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 186
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

While the connection to the tools is important, I am reminded of a book, "Living the Martial Way." The author made the point that learning striking but refusing to learn grappling, or claiming that one could strike so well that they never needed to learn how to grapple - the author said this was like a modern soldier refusing to learn to use a rifle because they knew how to use a hand grenade.

Weapons practice itself is more branded than our empty hand. Saito, Nishio, Chiba, Kanai, many others - weapons are connected to their personal empty hand. The weapons work seems much more codified for different systems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 05:54 PM   #8
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
Singapore
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Would you care to share what brought you to this change of heart?

Katherine
Aikido is still striking, don't misunderstand that. But striking as I previously defined it was striking on a competitive basis. Traditional combat involved heavy armor and weaponry that would have required a different method of striking. One that involves having a heavier weapon in one's hand, rather than a boxing glove. It's still striking in a sense, but I must be strict with myself, if I am to expect the same in others. Therefore, I was wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 05:57 PM   #9
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
Singapore
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Most errors in applying aikido are improved or corrected by the student answering two questions:

"Where is your blade?' and "Where are you cutting?"
Would I be wrong to reply, "Anywhere which can possibly hold a blade," and "anywhere which a blade can cut"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 06:00 PM   #10
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Would I be wrong to reply, "Anywhere which can possibly hold a blade," and "anywhere which a blade can cut"?
Yes. To cut (or strike) effectively, you need to have a specific target in mind. If you can't say what that target is in a specific instance, then you aren't really cutting (or striking).

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 06:44 PM   #11
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
Singapore
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Yes. To cut (or strike) effectively, you need to have a specific target in mind. If you can't say what that target is in a specific instance, then you aren't really cutting (or striking).

Katherine
Firstly. that was a joke.

Secondly, in the midst of pitched battle, against a fully armored warrior and aiming for a target the size of a china cup saucer, and pressed for time because you never know when the next guy is coming to take your head while you are trying to find the saucer. Can you expect to have a specific target in mind?

A duel is even worse. The other guy has the same weapon as you, do you not think that he would know where he could be cut and take precautions? To aim for a specific target then would make you predictable, and shortly dead.

In which case, my serious answer would be;

"where is my blade? It is in the mind."

"Where do I cut? Where the mind is weakest."

In my opinion of course.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 07:06 PM   #12
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Firstly. that was a joke.

Secondly, in the midst of pitched battle, against a fully armored warrior and aiming for a target the size of a china cup saucer, and pressed for time because you never know when the next guy is coming to take your head while you are trying to find the saucer. Can you expect to have a specific target in mind?

A duel is even worse. The other guy has the same weapon as you, do you not think that he would know where he could be cut and take precautions? To aim for a specific target then would make you predictable, and shortly dead.
I'm sorry, but you aren't making any sense.

If the only gap in a suit of armor is a target the size of a saucer, how could you possibly hit it *without* having that specific target in mind?

Yes, of course your opponent knows where his potential openings are and tries to defend them. But trying to cut where there is no opening is pointless.

So sure, "cut where the mind is weakest" is fine as a general principle. But when your teacher asks, in mid-cut, what you thought your target was, I'm guessing that's not the answer he's looking for.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 08:25 PM   #13
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,238
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Aikido is still striking, don't misunderstand that. But striking as I previously defined it was striking on a competitive basis. Traditional combat involved heavy armor and weaponry that would have required a different method of striking. One that involves having a heavier weapon in one's hand, rather than a boxing glove. It's still striking in a sense, but I must be strict with myself, if I am to expect the same in others. Therefore, I was wrong.
You are actually onto something, but you need to get your head around more Japanese history. The oldest koryu were founded in those days, but there were 286-odd years of almost no armored battle during which koryu was always trying to justify itself by harkening back to an obsolete age.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 05:08 AM   #14
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
Singapore
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but you aren't making any sense.

If the only gap in a suit of armor is a target the size of a saucer, how could you possibly hit it *without* having that specific target in mind?

Yes, of course your opponent knows where his potential openings are and tries to defend them. But trying to cut where there is no opening is pointless.

So sure, "cut where the mind is weakest" is fine as a general principle. But when your teacher asks, in mid-cut, what you thought your target was, I'm guessing that's not the answer he's looking for.

Katherine
Pick up a bokken and try and cut your sensei. That's the best way to get the idea I would think.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 05:11 AM   #15
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
Singapore
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You are actually onto something, but you need to get your head around more Japanese history. The oldest koryu were founded in those days, but there were 286-odd years of almost no armored battle during which koryu was always trying to justify itself by harkening back to an obsolete age.
Agreed. The history is sketchy on my part, but one can't deny that weaponry was a big part of historical combat, so when considering a traditional art or koryu, the weaponry should thus be a consideration that takes precedence over bare-hands.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 10:55 AM   #16
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 186
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Aikido is still striking, don't misunderstand that. But striking as I previously defined it was striking on a competitive basis. Traditional combat involved heavy armor and weaponry that would have required a different method of striking. One that involves having a heavier weapon in one's hand, rather than a boxing glove. It's still striking in a sense, but I must be strict with myself, if I am to expect the same in others. Therefore, I was wrong.
There are several ways of using anatomy to generate power. If I understand you correctly, then absolutely a boxing jab is very different from swinging a sword which had more in common with swinging an axe or a hammer. Applied to empty hand, this type of strike can create different opportunities from a jab. Swords can slice, cut, pierce, chop. The weight and length of a sword or jo creates it's own momentum. The sword edge needs to be the contact surface to cut, so we have to be aware of the slightest movement in our wrists.

The Jo doesn't require this awareness of the edge because it is an impact weapon. With rare exceptions, the sword and jo are used with two hands working closely in concert - koryu jo allows for more distance and separation of the hands.

Tanto can allow for complete separation of the hands, and the Tanto doesn't create it's own momentum like a longer weapon. The power comes back from human structure instead of a longer weapon where you need to relax and let it fall into your hands for more power. Timing is different, and more like empty hand timing with a very short weapon. Tanto I think compliments many of the more modern empty hand techniques.

I believe the Chinese martial arts distinguish between 83ish separate forms of martial power. Focus on sword work can inform empty hand, but our three weapons do inform empty hand a little differently and other tools maybe need other understanding.

O Sensei wrote about an unlimited set of responses being the best strategy, so I don't encourage focus on a singular definition. We do have different forms of power generation. Always good to focus on one and learn it well than learn a dozen things shallowly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 10:58 AM   #17
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Pick up a bokken and try and cut your sensei. That's the best way to get the idea I would think.
I have. That's how I know how important it is to have a target.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 12:38 PM   #18
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,238
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

I tend to agree with the theory that Aikido shomenuchi represents a straight cut with a sword.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 03:58 PM   #19
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

I often tell new students and children to imagine they have a bottle in their hand for the shomenuchi and yokomenuchi attacks. This helps give them the understanding that we are simulating weapon attacks. It then makes a lot more sense to avoid the attack with blending movement rather trying to block with your arms, hands or head.

In the children classes that I teach, I spend time every week having them (without doing technique) avoid and enter against a shinai shomenuchi or munetski attack. I think it helps drill into them the concept of getting out of the way, positioning and to treat all attacks as though there might be a weapon - blunt or bladed. If anything, I think that is the most important skill I'm teaching the children.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 04:55 PM   #20
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,183
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
In the children classes that I teach, I spend time every week having them (without doing technique) avoid and enter against a shinai shomenuchi or munetski attack. I think it helps drill into them the concept of getting out of the way, positioning and to treat all attacks as though there might be a weapon - blunt or bladed. If anything, I think that is the most important skill I'm teaching the children.
Those who teach our kids' classes do the same thing

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2015, 06:53 PM   #21
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,238
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

The act of trying to break a bottle on someone's head is an entirely different use of the physical body than the act of making a full-power straight cut, with a sword, on someone. Just wanted to point that out. It's somewhat interesting to think about. It is likely that the differences in the attacks mean that the technique teaches different things to nage. But what does that mean, and how important is it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 08:10 AM   #22
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,891
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
The act of trying to break a bottle on someone's head is an entirely different use of the physical body than the act of making a full-power straight cut, with a sword, on someone. Just wanted to point that out. It's somewhat interesting to think about. It is likely that the differences in the attacks mean that the technique teaches different things to nage. But what does that mean, and how important is it?
not bottle. folding chair! don't any of you watch WWE or WWF or whatever they called themselves these days? years ago, we hung a folding chair on the weapon rack, in front of the shomen. Our sensei bowed in and saw the folding chair and laughed pretty hard. we also hung spatula on the weapon rack too. vicious weapon, the spatula. spatula take away techniques involved lots of flying pancakes and sticky maple syrup.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 08:27 AM   #23
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,891
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Pick up a bokken and try and cut your sensei. That's the best way to get the idea I would think.
if you know who's her sensei, then that statement is hilarious, in so many way.

and yes, i took up my bokken against her sensei many times, and died in more ways than i could count.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 08:56 AM   #24
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,267
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
The weight and length of a sword or jo creates it's own momentum.
Momentum taken from Wikipedia: Momentum: is the product of the mass and velocity of an object.

The sword or jo does not generate its own momentum, the momentum is generated by the person holding the sword or jo.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 09:24 AM   #25
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,565
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Would I be wrong to reply, "Anywhere which can possibly hold a blade," and "anywhere which a blade can cut"?
You would be entirely correct.

The problem usually lies in seeing that there is a way that the blade is being held in the engagement in question -- and a way that it is cutting throughout the engagement.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Hikari Dojo - Kagami Biraki with Pat Hendricks 7th Dan Shihan, AikiNo Mikoto New Year!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido: Striking all along? earnest aikidoka General 95 02-04-2015 07:23 PM
Aikido: Striking all along? earnest aikidoka General 0 01-27-2015 06:56 PM
Toby Threadgill, SoCal July 26 & 27. Internal strength, jujutsu principles, striking Richard Elias Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1 07-17-2014 04:41 PM
Saito sensei's path was wrong? Jorx Teaching 20 08-17-2003 10:05 PM
practice, doing it wrong to get it right. Bruce Baker General 4 12-30-2002 04:13 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:34 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate