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Old 12-11-2012, 09:03 AM   #376
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would add to that, that the manifestion of yin and yang can be shown in a single arm movement. I do this at seminars where I have someone put force into my arm and I move and they move. I then do the exact same movement now deviod of yin and yang and their power comes in or I have to use muscle. Then....apply yin and yang...I move, they move.
I don't know if I would go so far as to say that I'm actually expressing in-yo in a single arm, but something that I got from Ark and Rob was the idea of kaeshi (returning) within the body. Mentioning the arm reminds me of this because one of the ways Ark demonstrated how he was doing was different than Tohei's "extend ki" paradigm was to explain that for every amount of "out" he was expressing, he was expressing an equal amount of "in".

To make that clearer do (or attempt) the following:

*Tohei/Ki society version: you know the drill, do the unbendable arm trick, arm like firehose! Shoot ki out your fingers! Reach for the $100 bill! and bang, your partner can't bend your arm at the elbow. ---but neither can you without making your arm "empty". So, yes you're very "strong" feeling but you've created a direct line into your center and you've given up freedom of movement and sensitivity. Not good.

*Aunkai/Ark/garden hose version: OK, so now the mental image is that you have a a garden hose that runs out to your fingertips but then is looped back on itself, so all of the intent/water/ki/midicloreans you are shooting out to your fingertips are pulled back just as hard as you extend them out. Focus on pulling intent back along the return pipe since you're probably already used to pushing them out. Now have someone do the unbendable arm thing on you. When you're doing this right, most find that you are just as stable resisting/being unmoved by a partner's attempt to collapse the elbow *but* you are now free to open and close their own elbow at will. The arm is now alive because it's basically a closed system of intent.

And just to be clear, while this post is a reply to Dan's, this is actually aimed at other readers since Dan either knows this or has a different paradigm that he's operating under.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:55 AM   #377
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I don't know if I would go so far as to say that I'm actually expressing in-yo in a single arm, but something that I got from Ark and Rob was the idea of kaeshi (returning) within the body. Mentioning the arm reminds me of this because one of the ways Ark demonstrated how he was doing was different than Tohei's "extend ki" paradigm was to explain that for every amount of "out" he was expressing, he was expressing an equal amount of "in".

To make that clearer do (or attempt) the following:

*Tohei/Ki society version: you know the drill, do the unbendable arm trick, arm like firehose! Shoot ki out your fingers! Reach for the $100 bill! and bang, your partner can't bend your arm at the elbow. ---but neither can you without making your arm "empty". So, yes you're very "strong" feeling but you've created a direct line into your center and you've given up freedom of movement and sensitivity. Not good.

*Aunkai/Ark/garden hose version: OK, so now the mental image is that you have a a garden hose that runs out to your fingertips but then is looped back on itself, so all of the intent/water/ki/midicloreans you are shooting out to your fingertips are pulled back just as hard as you extend them out. Focus on pulling intent back along the return pipe since you're probably already used to pushing them out. Now have someone do the unbendable arm thing on you. When you're doing this right, most find that you are just as stable resisting/being unmoved by a partner's attempt to collapse the elbow *but* you are now free to open and close their own elbow at will. The arm is now alive because it's basically a closed system of intent.

And just to be clear, while this post is a reply to Dan's, this is actually aimed at other readers since Dan either knows this or has a different paradigm that he's operating under.
If I remember correctly in my old days of training in the Ki society (mid to late 70s) we used the fire hose metaphor for the ki extension in the unbendable arm demo, but you also needed to extend ki from the one point; and the 'key' here is that as ki is being projected out in any form from the body, you also had new ki coming into your one point to replenish - this gave you a feedback loop of energy that helped to establish stability. I think the real lesson here is the fact that there needs to be an in/yo relationship to establish the internal stability - Ark's example above has in/yo, my example of Tohei has in/yo, and Dan's model of dual opposing spirals has it as well. Now the question is, which model provides for more stability in a static as well as dynamic state.

Greg
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:14 AM   #378
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
The arm is now alive because it's basically a closed system of intent.
And just to be clear, while this post is a reply to Dan's, this is actually aimed at other readers since Dan either knows this or has a different paradigm that he's operating under.
Yes. Different paradigm.
I do not return power out with power back to the zero point. In every sense of meaning you just allowed power a channel back to your center. This works great with the make connect, center to center, make a four legged animal, extend ki crowd. Now its a matter of time and skill before they meet someone good enough to follow that line into their center and they are toast.

The next step in their training is that they have to manipulate ground paths and extending ki in different paths to manipulate forces from a one point returning to a one point. It's all groovy, and the people who show it, are showing it to people who really don't have much of a connection anyway, so the model looks all cool and people want to learn it.
I say it over and over; so...you think making a connection to someones center is a good idea right?
Okay. In theory then...go back in time and "make connect" to Morihei Ueshiba's center...
Hows that working out for ya?
In seminars I tell people..."Okay..come "connect" to my center." It never works out well for them either.

The idea of making a connection to another persons center... who is developed.. is as moronic as it sounds and so is the idea of establishing a path back to your own center. This is low level internal training, used in a tightly controlled martial art box. As I said , it impresses folks who themselves are not really connected. It will never...EVER...be a good idea when touching hands with truly developed people.
Now, martial art boxes are cool, people love them because they are predictable and you know what you get when you open them. But boxes and defined movements lend themselves to all manner of reverse engineering "crutches" based on presumption and pretext. People in fact do not all move the same, and have widely varied reactions to forces- trained fighters/grapplers having the best. They function outside of prescribed movement and reactive force. The inherent limitations of structure of making a kata look like a kata, handicaps people (even world famous teachers) into thinking certain principles apply and are high level. They don't realize they are themselves "caught" in a false feedback loop. Were some of these famous internal teachers to go put their center in touch with people who actually developed their center under severe stresses at extreme speed, they would be in for one...big...hell of a surprise.

Beep...Please leave a message. My center is not available or interested in connecting to yours.
You can utilize ki in such a way that "no-force" becomes a permanent state, and power coming back to one point along the same path is not part of it. By managing forces in a more complete fashion (one blogger called it an overly complicated system-meaning it is simply over his head), things like the unbendable arm become something completely different and is no longer a trick. In fact done correctly it can instantly rise above being yet another...stupid jin trick™...in that it can express some fairly sophisticated IP and aiki all in one in a continuous state of being. A living state of "no-force." This is what most people actually desire to achieve in their Aikido, they just don't know how to do it.

Dan
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:06 PM   #379
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes. Different paradigm.
I do not return power out with power back to the zero point. In every sense of meaning you just allowed power a channel back to your center. This works great with the make connect, center to center, make a four legged animal, extend ki crowd. Now its a matter of time and skill before they meet someone good enough to follow that line into their center and they are toast....I say it over and over; so...you think making a connection to someones center is a good idea right?
Okay. In theory then...go back in time and "make connect" to Morihei Ueshiba's center...
Hows that working out for ya?
In seminars I tell people..."Okay..come "connect" to my center." It never works out well for them either.....
Now, martial art boxes are cool, people love them because they are predictable and you know what you get when you open them. But boxes and defined movements lend themselves to all manner of reverse engineering "crutches" based on presumption and pretext. People in fact do not all move the same, and have widely varied reactions to forces- trained fighters/grapplers having the best. They function outside of prescribed movement and reactive force. The inherent limitations of structure of making a kata look like a kata, handicaps people (even world famous teachers) into thinking certain principles apply and are high level. They don't realize they are themselves "caught" in a false feedback loop. Were some of these famous internal teachers to go put their center in touch with people who actually developed their center under severe stresses at extreme speed, they would be in for one...big...hell of a surprise.

Beep...Please leave a message. My center is not available or interested in connecting to yours.
You can utilize ki in such a way that "no-force" becomes a permanent state, and power coming back to one point along the same path is not part of it. By managing forces in a more complete fashion (one blogger called it an overly complicated system-meaning it is simply over his head), things like the unbendable arm become something completely different and is no longer a trick. In fact done correctly it can instantly rise above being yet another...stupid jin trickô...in that it can express some fairly sophisticated IP and aiki all in one in a continuous state of being. A living state of "no-force." This is what most people actually desire to achieve in their Aikido, they just don't know how to do it.

Dan
Dan, you've developed the ability to write more and more cogently over the many years you've been plugging away on these forums, and I think this is one of the clearest posts yet in terms of "compare and contrast." Really well expressed.
Writing as someone who has been delighted to meet and train with you, but has not pursued further training for reasons entirely within me/who I am and not in any way a reflection of you or who you are or what you do, my two cents is:
I think some folks are happy and will be happy to stay within a lower level of structure/power, because polishing the aikido they are already working on meets their own personal training needs or goals.
Those folks should have no need to argue per se since what you are doing and writing about is not a threat to their daily training and enjoyment.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:33 PM   #380
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
If I had ANY dance ability whatsoever, ANY, I so want to do that dance as I walk back into line after my nidan exam. I dont know if the 6 weeks or so I have left is enough to learn it. I doubt it, time probably better spent elsewhere.
Tips from the master himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZmkU...ailpage#t=120s
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