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Old 12-05-2012, 03:22 PM   #351
yugen
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Since this thread has touched on this subject... Maybe this link has already been posted:

http://med.stanford.edu/mcr/2008/taichi-0507.html

Ryan Schoelerman

I Liq Chuan Seattle
https://www.facebook.com/SeattleILC
Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:21 PM   #352
Mert Gambito
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Marc,

Just to be clear (and I trust it is to you, anyway): I'm talking about Asia vs. Asians, the west vs. westerners.

I don't get why people choose to remain stuck in the sight-unseen analytical infinite loop regarding all this: isn't first-hand observation and experience still a requirement for formulating a valid theory in modern science? Fortunately, Dan and others with the ability to provide the source inputs are easier to encounter then Bigfoot and the Roswell aliens.

Mert
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:26 PM   #353
Mert Gambito
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Ryan Schoelerman wrote: View Post
Since this thread has touched on this subject... Maybe this link has already been posted:

http://med.stanford.edu/mcr/2008/taichi-0507.html
Ryan,

Do you know if there were any follow-ups to this research conducted and published since 2008?

Mert
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:34 PM   #354
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Marc,

Just to be clear (and I trust it is to you, anyway): I'm talking about Asia vs. Asians, the west vs. westerners.

I don't get why people choose to remain stuck in the sight-unseen analytical infinite loop regarding all this: isn't first-hand observation and experience still a requirement for formulating a valid theory in modern science? Fortunately, Dan and others with the ability to provide the source inputs are easier to encounter then Bigfoot and the Roswell aliens.

Mert
What, you have not encountered Tom (Bigfoot) Holz yet? and I swear that Don Soucy guy is an alien; he is just too weird to be from this planet

Greg
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:42 PM   #355
yugen
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Ryan,

Do you know if there were any follow-ups to this research conducted and published since 2008?

Mert
I haven't found anything else.

Ryan Schoelerman

I Liq Chuan Seattle
https://www.facebook.com/SeattleILC
Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:59 PM   #356
Mert Gambito
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
What, you have not encountered Tom (Bigfoot) Holz yet? and I swear that Don Soucy guy is an alien; he is just too weird to be from this planet

Greg
Greg,

Who are these people (checking the MonsterQuest website now . . .)?

Mert
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:18 PM   #357
jeremymcmillan
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Dan Harden: Your original reply stands on its own.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:41 PM   #358
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Jeremy McMillan wrote: View Post
Dan Harden: Your original reply stands on its own.
Hi Jeremy
I think my edited post #93 was better. To be frank I think it was the only substantive post addressing the fuller spectrum of the question on the whole thread. There really is no discussion to be had when folks can't even demonstrate the little I laid out, much less intelligently discuss it. There is no debate to be had either. It is the essence of everything they are trying to do. They just haven't figured that out yet.
Dan
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:35 AM   #359
phitruong
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Hey! I resemble that round-eyed remark....

marc abrams
marc, you can become asian too through adoption. i can adopt you as my brother-in-arm. you would have to answer some tough questions, since we asian have high standard.

have you ever party for more than 24 hrs?
have you knowledge in carousing?
have you spent time with strange men and touching them in strange way while wearing a skirt?
have you look at your big gut and said "my hara is looking good" and ask your significant other to feel it?
have you gone commando or at least zebra thong under your hakama?
have you large stock of ibuprofen, icyhot and similar ointments?
have you consider steak as part of vegetarian diet?
have you weep over kimchi (at least because of it)?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:56 AM   #360
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
marc, you can become asian too through adoption. i can adopt you as my brother-in-arm. you would have to answer some tough questions, since we asian have high standard.

have you ever party for more than 24 hrs?
have you knowledge in carousing?
have you spent time with strange men and touching them in strange way while wearing a skirt?
have you look at your big gut and said "my hara is looking good" and ask your significant other to feel it?
have you gone commando or at least zebra thong under your hakama?
have you large stock of ibuprofen, icyhot and similar ointments?
have you consider steak as part of vegetarian diet?
have you weep over kimchi (at least because of it)?
Phi- my - adopted- brother-in-arms:
1) Yes- We use to have "anti-days" at my old fraternity.....
2) Yes- I can neither confirm nor deny this answer......
3) Yes- And I did not even have to call myself a lumberjack ...( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg )
4) Yes- the result of the touch is further tissue expansion.....
5) Yes.... Just hiding my tanto.....
6) Yes.... Brew my own Chinese liniments..... Two cellars full of muscle relaxing, pain relieving grape extracts....
7) Yes- Is is my standard vegetarian meal!
8) Yes- Tears usually follow "I surrender!"

I can envision our future.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9VSEgV90Y

Brotherly,

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:55 PM   #361
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Ryan Schoelerman wrote: View Post
Since this thread has touched on this subject... Maybe this link has already been posted:

http://med.stanford.edu/mcr/2008/taichi-0507.html
Thanks for the link.

The punch that he gave was 60 mph. That is a good punch. But as far as I know not exceptional. It seems that a speed like that is not uncommon in boxing or TKD, muay thai, etc.?

Tom
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:10 PM   #362
ChrisMoses
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Thanks for the link.

The punch that he gave was 60 mph. That is a good punch. But as far as I know not exceptional. It seems that a speed like that is not uncommon in boxing or TKD, muay thai, etc.?

Tom
Force = mass x acceleration
Power = force x velocity

If you have 20lbs of mass behind a 100 mph strike, you have less power than if you can recruit 34lbs of mass behind a 60 mph punch. (just throwing numbers out to point out that the raw speed of a strike is not the ultimate litmus for how much power (or potential power) there is there)

Chris Moses
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:26 PM   #363
yugen
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Thanks for the link.

The punch that he gave was 60 mph. That is a good punch. But as far as I know not exceptional. It seems that a speed like that is not uncommon in boxing or TKD, muay thai, etc.?

Tom
Whether exceptional or not I don't know. Whether muay thai or TKD produce 14 times the bodyweight in torque, I don't know either. Whether or not he's an exceptional taiji master I don't know.

this link shows some conventional measurements of Karate, olympic boxers, etc.
http://www.connectsavannah.com/news/article/102548/

The link wasn't to make a point one way or the other, just an example of western science being applied to analyze IP/IS. The researchers themselves who study movement, gait, golf swings, etc seemed to be impressed. Most conventional striking in muay thai, TKD, etc doesn't amount to much more than good athletic swinging, so I don't think the link and research would have been made public if there wasn't something more there, but that's an assumption on my part. The IP/IS strikes are typically demonstrated without wind up or reach (i.e. zero inch punch).

If I had to take away anything from the link is that there's been a lot of back and forth in this thread about trying to scientifically analyze and explain this stuff. The sensors and measuring done in the study were sensors placed on the external form. i.e. to feel how to do this stuff and to be taught it is not a straight forward equation that Dan or some other IP/IS could write on the board. If it were we'd all be doing it.

Or hell.. I'd make a home device using the Microsoft kinect camera with body mounting transmitting piezo shock sensors and be selling it... Quick to the patent lawyer's office!

Last edited by yugen : 12-06-2012 at 01:30 PM.

Ryan Schoelerman

I Liq Chuan Seattle
https://www.facebook.com/SeattleILC
Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:26 PM   #364
Keith Larman
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Force = mass x acceleration
Power = force x velocity

If you have 20lbs of mass behind a 100 mph strike, you have less power than if you can recruit 34lbs of mass behind a 60 mph punch. (just throwing numbers out to point out that the raw speed of a strike is not the ultimate litmus for how much power (or potential power) there is there)
I was discussing this very point recently and did a strike on a student (who had a protective foam pad on his chest) from a half inch away. No way to get much speed but I was able to recruit a *lot* of my significant body in the punch. He had to bow off the mat and rest for a while after the strike. He later said it knocked a lot of the wind out of him and he felt it in his toes. And I've been hit by folk who do stuff like Systema and find that they can do a lot of damage with what appears to be a slower, relaxed strike. Same idea, you feel it throughout your body or in a penetrating fashion rather than as a "crush" on the surface. Heck, they even sound different when they land. A deep thud rather than a slap. FWIW.

Just a small tangent...

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Old 12-06-2012, 01:28 PM   #365
Keith Larman
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Oh, and fwiw I was watching some video of Ark last night -- I'd hate to get hit or kicked by that guy. Same sound... He could probably punch you in the belly and loosen your teeth...

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Old 12-06-2012, 03:36 PM   #366
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Thanks for the link.

The punch that he gave was 60 mph. That is a good punch. But as far as I know not exceptional. It seems that a speed like that is not uncommon in boxing or TKD, muay thai, etc.?

Tom
It's about more than velocity, but the nature of the mechanics -- what's behind the punch. I would be curious to see the researchers compare the amount of force created by the taichi punch and a TKD/muay Thai punch traveling at the same velocity and rate of acceleration, by individuals of the same general size and weight/body mass.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:25 AM   #367
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Ryan,

Do you know if there were any follow-ups to this research conducted and published since 2008?

Mert
Ryan and Mert--

While the bajiquan shown in that motion-study clip is exterrnally impressive, Chen Xiang can do things more related to his taiji training that are even more skillful (in my opinion) and not really addressed with what the Stanford students were monitoring. Chen exhibits (I've felt) very strong "pulsing" power with no windup, very heavy connected arms when striking or doing push-hands (and can "turn off" the connection so you can feel the difference), and excellent neutralization. Chen was in Seattle and the Bay Area in October. I think he comes to the Bay Area at least once a year: maybe the Stanford lab could measure the external movement of the more subtle taiji work.

But the real interest in "no-inch power" I think would be in "tissue recruitment," which can also be measured in various ways. Some of the scrawny guys who demonstrate amazing feats of strength are said to recruit more motor units with a higher stimulation frequency. This is a largely neural function that to a certain extent can be trained. There are limits, of course (see, for example, http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4255 ).

This kind of pulsing power is the yang side of the situation. But it's the way that the highly-skilled guys can use their power under pressure that makes it so effective, i.e., more than dumb force-on-force. For example, the angle relative to the line of incoming/attacking force at which they apply the power is important to its effectiveness in fighting (d'oh). Even more critical is the skill of neutralization--that is the yin side of the equation. Balancing forces within you--the "aiki in me" Dan writes about--is very important.

That obviously wasn't addressed by the Stanford motion study of Chen's bajiquan. But tissue recruitment and functioning during neutralization is possible to monitor. It would be expensive--and unlikely to receive a NIH grant anytime soon--and there are a paucity of credible research subjects. I just wanted to mention it because people get distracted by the external impressiveness of outward-directed power when the more subtle but equally critical skills of neutralization (without bracing) get ignored.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:47 PM   #368
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Ledyard Sensei,

I have a question about this. Just because Dan H and Mike Sigman have a common language doesn't mean that they are using the terms to refer to the same things.

Would you say they share a common underlying model and methodology, despite their disagreements? If so, and if they both are at a high level (as some people claim), it seems odd to me that they don't recognize each other's abilities and understanding.

What do you think?

Just curious,

Conrad
Conrad,
The answer to your question is a bit complicated... Even the Chinese themselves argue about the details. Yes, Dan and Mike argue a lot about these things. But their arguments come from a place of mutual understanding of the basic concepts. Like two trained engineers arguing about a design. They at least have the same basic underpinnings about how they talk about.

Then there is the fact that this is never cut and dry. This is an area in which there is simply no limit to how good you can get or the level to which you might aspire. So, the heated debates of the top level folks might seem nit picky to those of us who are more at an entry level to the skills but of critical importance to them since a mistaken idea about how things really work can stop ones progress.

There are a lot of higher level folks around but I think that certain folks stand out both as parctitioners and as teachers. That's my take on it.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:08 PM   #369
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Ryan and Mert--

While the bajiquan shown in that motion-study clip is exterrnally impressive, Chen Xiang can do things more related to his taiji training that are even more skillful (in my opinion) and not really addressed with what the Stanford students were monitoring. Chen exhibits (I've felt) very strong "pulsing" power with no windup, very heavy connected arms when striking or doing push-hands (and can "turn off" the connection so you can feel the difference), and excellent neutralization. Chen was in Seattle and the Bay Area in October. I think he comes to the Bay Area at least once a year: maybe the Stanford lab could measure the external movement of the more subtle taiji work.

But the real interest in "no-inch power" I think would be in "tissue recruitment," which can also be measured in various ways. Some of the scrawny guys who demonstrate amazing feats of strength are said to recruit more motor units with a higher stimulation frequency. This is a largely neural function that to a certain extent can be trained. There are limits, of course (see, for example, http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4255 ).

This kind of pulsing power is the yang side of the situation. But it's the way that the highly-skilled guys can use their power under pressure that makes it so effective, i.e., more than dumb force-on-force. For example, the angle relative to the line of incoming/attacking force at which they apply the power is important to its effectiveness in fighting (d'oh). Even more critical is the skill of neutralization--that is the yin side of the equation. Balancing forces within you--the "aiki in me" Dan writes about--is very important.

That obviously wasn't addressed by the Stanford motion study of Chen's bajiquan. But tissue recruitment and functioning during neutralization is possible to monitor. It would be expensive--and unlikely to receive a NIH grant anytime soon--and there are a paucity of credible research subjects. I just wanted to mention it because people get distracted by the external impressiveness of outward-directed power when the more subtle but equally critical skills of neutralization (without bracing) get ignored.
Hi Tom. Interesting stuff isn't it? That will go nowhere.
There is more to the "generation of power" side of things that cannot be filmed or sourced. It has to do with the level of sustained yin/ yang through the use of intent. Something as simple as manifesting six directions, and how that effects the body tissues can be felt, but it's not going to necessarilly be seen.

I would add to that, that the manifestion of yin and yang can be shown in a single arm movement. I do this at seminars where I have someone put force into my arm and I move and they move. I then do the exact same movement now deviod of yin and yang and their power comes in or I have to use muscle. Then....apply yin and yang...I move, they move.

There are so many things, just like this, that can be shown, and all the "experts" on the internet fail at duplicating, all while claiming understanding. As the twentieth Chapter of the classics explains
"The weight of a feather cannot be added, a fly cannot alight...." As they also state;
"Yin and yang is the comprehension of energy."

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-10-2012 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:56 PM   #370
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Another thing, Tom
As time goes by, there is another form of testing taking place that is more relevant....hands on...and it will remain the standard. I say more relevant, as the level of education in this work improves, more and more teachers are going to be "outed" for the level they are really at. This work is like nothing else in the arts. You can't fake it and it is testable beyond waza and fighting. So when someone claims they do their budo ...moving from center. Or they cut with Sword, Naginata, or yari ...with center, their development can actually be tested. Time will tell, but I think we will find a nice group of teachers who really do know what they are talking about when they say it. Beyond that, there are interesting facets of creating aiki from there while using it.
Dan
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:49 PM   #371
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
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marc, you can become asian too through adoption. i can adopt you as my brother-in-arm. you would have to answer some tough questions, since we asian have high standard.
Standards? High? Really? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:35 PM   #372
James Sawers
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Korea sure has changed since I was stationed there.............They should send this to N. Korea.....they'd build a bigger Fence....
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:41 AM   #373
phitruong
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
deep down, you want to do gangnam style. just admit it!

i went to seminar taught by Howie Popkin. he made us do this ministry of silly walk thing. now i thought of it, it's actually gangnam style!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:02 AM   #374
Krystal Locke
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
deep down, you want to do gangnam style. just admit it!

i went to seminar taught by Howie Popkin. he made us do this ministry of silly walk thing. now i thought of it, it's actually gangnam style!
If I had ANY dance ability whatsoever, ANY, I so want to do that dance as I walk back into line after my nidan exam. I dont know if the 6 weeks or so I have left is enough to learn it. I doubt it, time probably better spent elsewhere.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:02 AM   #375
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
deep down, you want to do gangnam style. just admit it!

i went to seminar taught by Howie Popkin. he made us do this ministry of silly walk thing. now i thought of it, it's actually gangnam style!
Oh My God! It's true, Howie has become a mole for North Korea! What's next....... Long Island Jewish Fan Club for the Sexiest Man of The Year

Marc Abrams
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