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Old 11-08-2012, 07:08 AM   #76
Howard Popkin
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let's put this in perspective, Chris.

David Orange who trained with Mochizuki went.
Bill Gleason, who trained with Saotome and Yamaguchi went.
Marc Abrams who trained with Imaizumi and Ushiro went.
Chris Li who trained with too many to list went.
Allen Beebe who trained with Shirata went.
George Ledyard who trained with Saotome went.
That's just the tip of the iceberg.

So, now that *you* are going to teach "all the secrets", (which, btw, is completely different than what the above mentioned people are teaching), you expect people to show up? And are insincere if they don't?

You keep arguing that your definition of "aiki" is right and ours is wrong, yet we have people who have spent up to 40 years in the aikido world with direct students (and that's just the ones who are known publicly). These people that have gone out and put their skills on the line (and failed) are less sincere than you because they didn't expect the mountain to come to them but went to the mountain? Really?

I like David's, mine, Bill's, Marc's, Chris', Allen's, George's reason better. Their sincerety in their training pushed them to get out and into an unknown, unfamiliar world and lay their reputations on the line. In the end, they learned, they trained, they adapted ... their sincerity allowed them to become better martial artists.

BTW, David traveled all the way to Massachusetts to put his sincerety on the line.
You calling me an iceberg ? I know I'm fat...but iceberg ????

Howard Popkin
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:17 AM   #77
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest. I'm mostly just annoyed. I would go to a Dan Harden seminar, if Dan would let me come.
And you wonder why some people are not interested in having a "discussion" with you? And you wonder why Dan won't let you come into his seminar?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:25 AM   #78
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Is it, now? After I just sent you such a nice PM?



Don't make me be harsher in public than I was in the PM, Chris. Good grief, you complained about what I was saying in public...such statements as these are what get you such harsh answers.

But to be frank, why would I consider your secrets worth coming across town for?

Has anyone written, "I thought Chris Hein was full of it, but when I met him, I couldn't move him, and with a slight touch, he knocked me back several feet!"

....no...I don't recall ever hearing anyone report such experiences with you. Plus, I've seen your videos...and I've read what you have to say...so...even if I had my bicycle back from my ex and I could pedal across town to meet you...I probably wouldn't.

Don't forget, Chris, Ueshiba didn't go to people to prove them wrong. He just did his thing and so many people talked about his great power as well as the things he said, that others ran to Uehsiba to prove that they could beat him. Same with Dan. He made "outrageous" statements on forums and people went to him. I was very impressed by Mark Murray's account of meeting Dan briefly and it was as I wrote above: "I couldn't move him and he could hit me hard with almost no movement!"

And it's as Dan and others have often said: if you understand what they're doing, you will be known for unusual power and the word will get around, and people will come to you. Unfortunately, you're sending quite the opposite message about yourself.

So, not to be mean...but... I'm sure it will come off that way...because you've "explained" what Chen Xiao Wang is doing and simplified his seventy years of tai chi development to "a trick."

But I'm also pretty sure it will continue until you meet somebody who really knows the subject and experience in person what you've tried to analyze through video.

Good luck.

David
I don't think Chris can deny your sincerity in the thought that he has nothing new to offer and isn't worth visiting (which is not all so bad considering that you've trained with Mochizuki himself!).

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:57 AM   #79
gregstec
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the foundation of science is to state "i know not what that is" and then go about find ways to explain it, but first and foremost admitting i know not. that's also, the foundation of shoshin. a few years back, at one of the height of aiki war on aikiweb, i was curious about what all these IP/IS/aiki talk. i thought these guys were smoking something really good, maybe they founded the new LSD. so i went out and seek and experience it first hand. in my mind, all these things are just, as you said, good biomechanics (did i mention i also worked on my biomedical enginering degree?) one of the IP practitioner did something to me, and with all my knowledge i could not explain. so i said "i know not what that is". as an experiment, i took what these IP folks offer and worked with it for about 2 years. i felt certain changes within my body. some i could explain, many i still could not. even with the vault knowledge in sciences today, we still do not know many many things about the human body. to said that we can explain everything we do is extremely arrogant. there are many things the ancient did, we still could not explain or understand.

btw, the term jin meant, using mike sigman terminology, mind directed force. it came from the old statement: heart leads mind, mind leads qi/ki, qi/ki leads physical movement. from science point of view, you have mind and biomechanics. the mind is a vast and sophisticate computer with neural networks running throughout the body, that uses various bio, chemical, and electrical processes, at least those are the three that we know of. threre are those that we can directly control and those that are on "automatic". that is just the mind part which we knew so very little about. then the biomechanics which governs by various mechanical and chemical processes and control or not control by the mind, that we know of. we still don't understand so many of these. the amount of stuffs about our body that we don't know are stagering. if you noticed i didn't mention about qi/ki portion. that there is a gap of knowledge that we can't explain very well. because that discussion will lead us to the various questions such as what is life? what is the soul? what makes us so different even though we all have the same body parts?

there are things i can explain and things i cannot. those that i cannot, i accept the terms used by the ancient, until which times my knowledge catches up with my experience, then i will attempt to explain. to do anything else is crazy talk. then again, i wasn't sane in the first place.
Sometimes you not so funny, which is a good thing too

I like your point that we must admit there are things we just do not know regardless of any level of experience and education - no one has all the answers, and to assume you can explain all things based on your limited knowledge, is not just arrogant, but just plain dumb.

"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing"
Socrates

Greg
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:59 AM   #80
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Hi folks,

Let's keep the tone here respectful and keep from drifting into discussions of a personal nature, please.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 11-08-2012, 10:42 AM   #81
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?
Right up there with the unbendable arm as testimony to the amazing power of aikido.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:02 AM   #82
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Why start threads about things you're not interested in?
Im interested in a martial art I care about not getting muddled in a mess that it's going to take years to shake. I'm not interested in going to some guys seminar and being a jerk.

The only thing the supporters of the IP community continuously offer up is "you have to feel this stuff to get it". Having a feeling about something doesn't make it so. There isn't anything we can objectively look at to show something is happening.

If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why? If you ask one of the supporters, they don't offer any proof, because they say they don't have IT. So the Experts aren't in the business of proving what they do, and the supporters can't do it because they don't know how. No one claiming a positive is showing anything.

So, you don't care if there is anything to "IP", you just like doing it. I get it.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:15 AM   #83
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Im interested in a martial art I care about not getting muddled in a mess that it's going to take years to shake. I'm not interested in going to some guys seminar and being a jerk.
Don't worry, Chris. You wouldn't be a jerk for long.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The only thing the supporters of the IP community continuously offer up is "you have to feel this stuff to get it". Having a feeling about something doesn't make it so. There isn't anything we can objectively look at to show something is happening.
Again, I've said that "feel" is just another term for "experience." You haven't experienced it, so how can you judge it? And make no mistake, the people who have "felt" it have broad bases of experience to compare it to. We've felt all kinds of very powerful people doing "regular" aikido, but what we've experienced from the IP contingent is very different.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why?
Because you don't show up. You expect them to "phone it in"? That will never happen. And the people who "can" do aren't worried about explaining or proving it scientifically or philosophically. They're proving it in action.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If you ask one of the supporters, they don't offer any proof, because they say they don't have IT. So the Experts aren't in the business of proving what they do, and the supporters can't do it because they don't know how. No one claiming a positive is showing anything.

So, you don't care if there is anything to "IP", you just like doing it. I get it.
Chris, the experts are going all over the world proving it to anyone who comes to them. And you just like staying safely away from it and criticizing it. Face it, man. These people aren't going to come to your door and beg you to take what they've earned by serious struggle. You've got to put up to get anything. Keyboard warriors get nothing.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 11-08-2012 at 11:18 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:13 PM   #84
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

I am not an internal power guy. I have worked with several who are stepping into that study and I am impressed. From my experience and observation, to the argument of internal power:
1. External and internal structure are different. The old "New York lock" hanmi and the external structure of bones to receive a unidirectional force is not the same thing as what I feel from the internal guys.
2. You do not have to do it. I know plenty of good aikido people out there who are not going to consider training their internal structure.

I am impressed with the stuff that Choate, Ledyard, Gleason, Messisco, Saotome and others I have grabbed. They are doing aikido with internal foundation and it feels devastating. It represents a direction in which I can go that will expand my aikido.

My opinion is that this training is not for everyone. I think there was a reason it phased out of mainstream aikido. I think we are lucky to have people who know and can explain what is going on so aikidoka can reintegrate the curriculum into aikido. To be fair, I am also thankful for the Daito Ryu people and the karate people who are helping to reintegrate other aspects of aikido back into our training.

However, I think this stuff is revolutionary and the haves will begin to outshine the have nots.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:05 PM   #85
Brett Charvat
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why?
--Um, I'm not sure which IP experts you're referring to, but I've asked several to prove themselves to me, and they all have very handily. But here's the thing; in each case I actually had to pull my fat ass up off the couch, get dressed, and venture to their location. I even had to fly to Japan a couple of times. Not a single one of those IP experts knocked on my door and begged to show me their stuff. I'm not sure why that seems unreasonable to you; could you explain further?
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:17 PM   #86
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Im interested in a martial art I care about not getting muddled in a mess that it's going to take years to shake. I'm not interested in going to some guys seminar and being a jerk.

The only thing the supporters of the IP community continuously offer up is "you have to feel this stuff to get it". Having a feeling about something doesn't make it so. There isn't anything we can objectively look at to show something is happening.

If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why? If you ask one of the supporters, they don't offer any proof, because they say they don't have IT. So the Experts aren't in the business of proving what they do, and the supporters can't do it because they don't know how. No one claiming a positive is showing anything.

So, you don't care if there is anything to "IP", you just like doing it. I get it.
Can you solve a calculus problem without knowing the rules of calculus? Can you describe how it feels to keep your balance while riding a bicycle to someone who has never experienced it? As a newbie to martial arts, can you see what your seniors are doing right or wrong when the move?

Once you have experience, can you see how to solve a calculus problem or when someone is doing it wrong? After riding a bicycle can you discuss with others how to it feels to have that balance in different situations? After some martial arts experience can you see what makes a technique work or not? For all of these, requisite experience is required before you can see, comment or understand. Why would this not be the case when one is discusing a rather esoteric subject like IP, where the knowledge out there is limited?

Now anecdotal evidence is not persuasive, but when you get volumes of it, then it is a point worth considering. Not to rely on argument by authority, but even when experienced people see value in it and have reputations on the line and say the same thing, one may be persauded that there is something to the story.

If you poke around on aikiweb enough through the archives on here and elsewhere, yes you will find studies of IS people being hooked up to machines, yes you will find that some of the guys giving seminars out there have been hooked up to machines, yes you will find stories of kienseology (horrible spelling there) profs attending classes and saying this doesn't conform to our normal understanding of the body, yes you will find various people with MMA/BJJ/Judo/KB competition records feeling these guys and saying its something fundamentally different, and you will find accounts from plenty of naysayers of "oops I was wrong". This has been going on for years and the numbers of links to these discussions in the archives on this board and elsewhere are too large to repeat.
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:12 PM   #87
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Chris Hein,

Sam Chin, head of the family internal martial art of I Liq Chuan, is teaching a two-day workshop in Southern California in January. It would be an excellent opportunity for you to experience IP (and aiki) firsthand. Many of his workshop participants are students of aikido and Daito-ryu. He will give anyone who asks a hands-on opportunity to feel him demonstrate what he is talking about.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/souther...-workshop-2013
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:36 PM   #88
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

I am glad that science doesn't stop with the "OMG, that's weird! I dont know!" but makes an effort to figure out what is actually there. Science chooses a direction, a focus, based on "I dont know", but quickly uses what it does know to explore and evaluate that unknown. Y'all say there's something there, I'll take a look. I'm not going to assume that I will have the same experience as you, and I certainly wouldn't interpret my experience the way others have interpreted theirs. That's why experiments have to be repeatable and results have to be consistent and reproducible for good science to have happened.

I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:21 PM   #89
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.
That's the best attitude to take, Krystal. Don't reject it without experiencing it. And don't try to explain it without direct evidence. And the only way to get that is to go and feel it (experience it).

If you can explain it then, I'll be impressed.

Remember, that not all scientists even accept the existence of "mind". Neurologically speaking, all we know is chemical processes...but read Moby Dick and you have a direct experience of the mind of an artist.

I appreciate science, but the best scientists understand that science is only a process of reaching toward understanding. It doesn't guarantee that full understanding will ever be achieved, though the phenomena in question are accepted as real.

FWIW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:26 PM   #90
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Chris Hein,

Sam Chin, head of the family internal martial art of I Liq Chuan, is teaching a two-day workshop in Southern California in January. It would be an excellent opportunity for you to experience IP (and aiki) firsthand. Many of his workshop participants are students of aikido and Daito-ryu. He will give anyone who asks a hands-on opportunity to feel him demonstrate what he is talking about.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/souther...-workshop-2013
A sooner option is December 8th & 9th in Oakland, I'm making the trip from Seattle. Sifu Chin will be at this seminar.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/san-fra...hop-june-4-5th

Bernie Langan is an ILC instructor and host of the December seminar, his bio of experience is impressive and would be a great person for anyone to discuss IP/IS and play with.

http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/about/bio

Last edited by yugen : 11-08-2012 at 04:31 PM.

Ryan Schoelerman

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:27 PM   #91
James Sawers
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Smile Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
.
I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.
Gee, you must be fun on a date Somewhat more seriously, each "date" is an actual event, but is felt by each participant differently. These differences in experience do not negate the fact that a "date" actually happened. Some things may be difficult to put under the "scientific" microscope, though I guess you could measure the various physiological changes taking place in each participant's body (psychological changes? - take a pre-post test maybe?). Might take some of the fun out of the experience and may affect the results....like measuring "fun"??

'Course, I haver never been to one of these IP seminars, except with a brief session with Ikeda Sensei, some time ago, so I cannot speak from direct experience, though I am certainly willing to attend if one comes into my region.

I look forward to hearing Krystal's report on her experience.

In good practice........Jim
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:10 PM   #92
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I am glad that science doesn't stop with the "OMG, that's weird! I dont know!" but makes an effort to figure out what is actually there. Science chooses a direction, a focus, based on "I dont know", but quickly uses what it does know to explore and evaluate that unknown. Y'all say there's something there, I'll take a look. I'm not going to assume that I will have the same experience as you, and I certainly wouldn't interpret my experience the way others have interpreted theirs. That's why experiments have to be repeatable and results have to be consistent and reproducible for good science to have happened.

I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.
An absolutely great approach to take

Greg
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:21 PM   #93
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Chris Hein,

Sam Chin, head of the family internal martial art of I Liq Chuan, is teaching a two-day workshop in Southern California in January. It would be an excellent opportunity for you to experience IP (and aiki) firsthand. Many of his workshop participants are students of aikido and Daito-ryu. He will give anyone who asks a hands-on opportunity to feel him demonstrate what he is talking about.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/souther...-workshop-2013
I'm still not sure why I can't go and see Dan Harden...

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Old 11-08-2012, 05:34 PM   #94
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'm still not sure why I can't go and see Dan Harden...
That was not the purpose of my post, only to point out that there are opportunities to experience IP and aiki, and there are I Liq Chuan workshops scheduled for your neck of the woods. It shouldn't matter what or who is the source of the skills, but that they and the opportunity to experience IP and aiki are there.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:40 PM   #95
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'm still not sure why I can't go and see Dan Harden...
Maybe because you've been rude...not sure what you can do about that.

I'd suggest going to see Mike Sigman, Howie Popkin, Forrest Chang, Ark or Sam Chinn.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-08-2012, 05:43 PM   #96
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Getting back to the video, check out this post in the other thread. What do people see in the CXW video between what the strong man is doing and what CXW is doing for several of the topics covered?
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:10 PM   #97
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

I really don't see why people get so worked up about this. I have never met any of the "IP experts", but given the chance, why not check them out and see what they have to offer? At worst, you will have wasted a day or so and a bit of money, and at best, you might learn something. From my perspective, I have seen and felt some pretty amazing stuff from some great aikido teachers, and I have a feeling that that may just be the tip of the iceberg. To be honest, if all there is to aikido is just spinning around in circles and twisting wrists, then why do we do it? If there is nothing more to learn, then why train?

I can certainly understand Chris offering a hypothesis on how CXW does what he does, and defending that hypothesis. There is no need for that to get nasty. The crux of the matter is that there is no way for either side to prove their point over the internet, so it just devolves into "he's stupid - no he's stupid".

Personally, comparing what I am seeing to what I have felt from certain teachers, the IP hypothesis makes a lot more sense.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:16 PM   #98
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I can certainly understand Chris offering a hypothesis on how CXW does what he does, and defending that hypothesis. There is no need for that to get nasty. The crux of the matter is that there is no way for either side to prove their point over the internet, so it just devolves into "he's stupid - no he's stupid".
For the record, the keyboard command for internal strength is CTRL+ALT+I+P, then in sequence -up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start (or select start if playing with two players). This command will break any computer that receives it.

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Old 11-08-2012, 09:43 PM   #99
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I can certainly understand Chris offering a hypothesis on how CXW does what he does, and defending that hypothesis. There is no need for that to get nasty. The crux of the matter is that there is no way for either side to prove their point over the internet, so it just devolves into "he's stupid - no he's stupid".

Personally, comparing what I am seeing to what I have felt from certain teachers, the IP hypothesis makes a lot more sense.
Absolutely. There are people openly teaching now what has been kept secret for hundreds if not a thousand or more years. They're not only proving they can do it, they're explaining exactly how it's done. The only requirement is that you go and meet them and feel what they're doing and let them guide you in developing it. And anyone who puts in the work (with a discerning mind) can make tremendous progress. I would have made much more progress if I'd been able to continue meeting with these people. If I were a professional teacher, I would certainly manage it.

It's not really a matter of "he's stupid - no he's stupid." It a question of "Why do you keep saying the same things over and over when everyone who has directly experienced it has told you you don't understand?"

I mean, these teachers are teaching the real stuff, in detail. They're showing exactly how it's done. Why waste time speculating about it when you can find out quickly? And why keep making the same arguments after being corrected scores of times by so many people who have been instructed in detail?

Speaking of annoying....



David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:54 PM   #100
Krystal Locke
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Ok, so here's a question, flat out, straight up. Do the IP folk think Hiroshi Ikeda sensei has it or a part of it? (We'll leave Lee's protestations of having better breathing aside for the moment...) He's visiting in December, he's talked about internal stuff the last few times he's been here, can I save myself a chunk of change by cornering him and getting some of the goods from him?

I'd still find another seminar to go to, but no reason not to take advantage of an opportunity that is right in my lap.

And, yes, I know I am poking at a hornet's nest. PM if you want. The whole point of this thread is that it is really hard to get an honest reliable opinion.....
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