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Old 12-13-2009, 08:42 AM   #1
Aikidonewbie
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Ikkyo

I have a problem when I apply Ikkyo. I am 6'2 so, for instance once I have grabbed my opponent's arm and turned my hips into the motion, my opponent is bent pretty far down, and I am still in a standing position and unable to exert any real force on their arm, I found that I have to lean over to get closer to the arm. So usually this results in a clumsy motion with Uke having to pretend and assist me. Anybody ahve any tips for this problem? I am a beginner by the way...
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:57 AM   #2
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkyo

Why do you need to get closer to the arm? You're holding it.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:05 AM   #3
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Re: Ikkyo

Bend your knees....You don't need a whole lot of force as long as you have Ukes balance.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:09 AM   #4
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Bend your knees....You don't need a whole lot of force as long as you have Ukes balance.
I agree with this comment. Once your weight is over uke, unless uke is shifting his weight backward (not proper ukemi for ikkyo) you should be able to simply bend your knees and bring him down.

If you are having a problem with this still, because you don't quite have uke when you are at the rest position (standing with uke controlled in ikkyo in front of you) then you can step at an angle to uke's body; through the armpit of the arm you are applying ikkyo to. This will bring most down, if they are taking the proper ukemi for ikkyo.

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Old 12-13-2009, 11:24 AM   #5
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I agree with this comment. Once your weight is over uke, unless uke is shifting his weight backward (not proper ukemi for ikkyo) you should be able to simply bend your knees and bring him down.

If you are having a problem with this still, because you don't quite have uke when you are at the rest position (standing with uke controlled in ikkyo in front of you) then you can step at an angle to uke's body; through the armpit of the arm you are applying ikkyo to. This will bring most down, if they are taking the proper ukemi for ikkyo.
The problem I have with bending at the knees (and this is true with other aikido movements as well) as that I can't move forward very well when my knees are bent. I do like the idea of giving Uke a bump at an angle to help get the Uke down.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:40 AM   #6
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Re: Ikkyo

I had and still have that issue too. Trust me you can move forward with your knees bent. You just have to teach your body to do it. It will come all in good time. Be patient and just try not to get in your own way mentally.

Bending my knees and lowering my center is a major issue for me. But one day it occurred to me that I was making excuses and telling myself I can't do it and getting in my own way. I still do it sometimes but less often now. I will make the excuse to sensei that I just can't do what he is showing me. He is so patient. Just smiles and says you need to lower your center and he shows me again...

When I stop saying I cant and start saying I'll try... I tend to discover I can do a lot of things that I really believed were not possible.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:50 AM   #7
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Re: Ikkyo

I am 6 2 as well. I can't tell you how to do this correctly on aikiweb. Yea you have to bend your knees, but there is a little more to it than this as well.

Grabbling the arm. Probably a big clue as to part of the problem. Grabbing the arm means most likely that you are engaging the arm upon contract before you have established connection and kuzushi.

Grabbing the arm can trigger a proprioceptive response from uke, so if you extend, grab the arm, then bend your knees...well uke will feel the grab, then begin to disengage, bend his knees in order to get lower than you. So most likely he will always be slightly ahead of whatever knee bending you are going to do...thus you will never beat uke to get underneath his center.

Play around with ikkyo some with different things happening at different times.

I personally don't like to grab the arm at all, but to recieve, enter first....uke should not get feedback from the contact and thus he should not have a reason proprioceptively to consolidate and pullback, and bend his knees. Then you can try to "get under" his center, kuzushi established, and uke then needs to find a response to get center back...but it is too late and he is "behind" your action with his...and now you are ahead of his action loop.

Again, I can't coach over aikiweb...but maybe this mental picture might help?

This was a big part of my problem being a big guy and stopping the early grabbing was a huge help for me.

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Old 12-13-2009, 01:35 PM   #8
Michael Hackett
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Re: Ikkyo

My biggest failure and challenge with ikkyo omote is to keep the extension of my arms. Like many, I have tended to push down on the upper arm while pulling up on the lower arm. If I simply extend both of my arms fully and move forward from my center, Uke remains unbalanced and goes right down.

I have friends from another school who routinely perform the "bump" into the armpit and slide back out. That works pretty well until Uke decides to use that movement to reverse Nage and "sweep" the legs into a takedown.

Michael
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:49 PM   #9
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Ikkyo

Ikkyo is by far the most difficult technique to do correctly, and by far the easiest to escape out of.
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:38 PM   #10
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Ikkyo is by far the most difficult technique to do correctly, and by far the easiest to escape out of.
Mr Queecker,

Would you please elaborate on your statement?

Mickey
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:53 PM   #11
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Daniel Davis wrote: View Post
I have a problem when I apply Ikkyo. I am 6'2 so, for instance once I have grabbed my opponent's arm and turned my hips into the motion, my opponent is bent pretty far down, and I am still in a standing position and unable to exert any real force on their arm, I found that I have to lean over to get closer to the arm. So usually this results in a clumsy motion with Uke having to pretend and assist me. Anybody ahve any tips for this problem? I am a beginner by the way...
I think this largely depends on how tall your partner is in relation to your 6'2". It would be difficult to diagnose what problems you may be experiencing without seeing how you do this, or to be able to offer any real advice without hands on interaction. Ordinarily, the usual problem is applying ikkyo to a taller person, not the obverse.

BTW, you don't necessarily have to bend your knees to drop your weight or apply force.... but it's hard to explain without doing so in person.

Ignatius
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:15 PM   #12
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
I have friends from another school who routinely perform the "bump" into the armpit and slide back out. That works pretty well until Uke decides to use that movement to reverse Nage and "sweep" the legs into a takedown.
Yes, the bump into the armpit also doesn't work too well in my dojo, where many yudansha have judo training, so stepping in that close before you have control of uke creates an opening for a throw. Tani otoshi or sukui nage are the most common responses we get.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:00 PM   #13
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Re: Ikkyo

After tonight's class Kevin's post makes a ton of sense. We worked on Ikkyo all night. Got lucky and wound up with a semi private class so we really got to explore it.

I tried not grabbing. In fact not raising my arms at all for the Shomenuchi and Yokomenuch attacks until Uke had fully extend himself in his attack. Ikkyo worked much much better than it ever has for me. Also really concentrate on finding that spiral through Ukes body rather then concentrating on the linear direction you eventually want him to go in....

Lots of food for thought and this thread was on my mind as we trained.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:39 PM   #14
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Yes, the bump into the armpit also doesn't work too well in my dojo, where many yudansha have judo training, so stepping in that close before you have control of uke creates an opening for a throw. Tani otoshi or sukui nage are the most common responses we get.
If you push down as you "bump", their attempt to throw ends with them face planting themselves into the mat.

However if you don't first have uke's balance before doing this it won't work. Keeping your inside leg back, and stepping forward until uke loses his balance is key. If you have pushed uke forward until he can't keep his legs under him he will go down easily. Any attempts to throw from this position on the part of uke will end badly for him.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 12-13-2009 at 10:47 PM.

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Old 12-13-2009, 11:11 PM   #15
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkyo

Yes, Chris, that's why I had the caveat "before you have control of uke."
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:18 AM   #16
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkyo

An example of ikkyo without the bump or tori trying to put his weight over uke in any obvious way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8u...eature=channel

Down power is being transmitted through the arms, but it's a subtle thing.
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:01 AM   #17
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Mr Queecker,

Would you please elaborate on your statement?

Mickey
Please, call me by my first name, I start feeling old when people call me sir or mister

Anyway, in my experience, it is not really that difficult for an (strong) uke to resist an ikkyo by sheer force ("I'm not going to bend my elbow or go down"), or just roll out of it the moment it is applied, so when you apply it, it has to be near perfect. Now, achieving this near perfection is easy on a flexible uke who attacks relaxedly (is this a word?) with e.g. shomenuchi, but when you have an uke who comes at you full strenght and speed, you must be really good and fast if you want to a) take uke's centre and not get pushed into the mat and b) keep control of uke. In kaeshi-waza, ikkyo is the easiest to take over.

Most instructors/yudansha I speak with agree that ikkyo is one of the hardest techniques to do if you have an uke who is hellbent on getting out of it.
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Old 12-14-2009, 05:40 AM   #18
Abasan
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
An example of ikkyo without the bump or tori trying to put his weight over uke in any obvious way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8u...eature=channel

Down power is being transmitted through the arms, but it's a subtle thing.
Right.... he's a beginner and you want him to emulate Endo.

Stick to kihon. Hold a bokken and see how ikkyo is done slowly, blade always cutting uke. You'll learn to move softly with the blade just as you should do it empty handed. But if you start to push and pull, where is your blade?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:09 AM   #19
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Stick to kihon.
Well it is.

Greetings,
Carsten
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:15 AM   #20
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Re: Ikkyo

Carsten beat me to linking to the Kihon no Kata video clip. I had the same idea. And I mention Endo not to answer the OP directly, but to address the idea of the bump cited a few posts earlier.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:05 AM   #21
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Re: Ikkyo

ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.

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Old 12-14-2009, 10:33 AM   #22
dps
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Re: Ikkyo

For a beginner I would recommend that in Shomenuchi Ikkyo, as uke raises his arm upward to strike, raise your arms upward at the same time. You use uke's upward momentum to help unbalance him.

If his striking arm is coming down, do Iriminage.

David

Last edited by dps : 12-14-2009 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:44 AM   #23
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Re: Ikkyo

You should not bend over. My sensei always reminds us that we should be like puppets and have our heads suspended from a string from the ceiling. If anything, bending your knees or sinking into your hips should be enough to keep him down.

As far as what David said above me, I agree. My sensei always tells us to imagine both our fingers are linked via a string. When he lifts his arm up to attack, my arm should go up too to catch under the elbow. The reason he tells us to imagine the string is tied at the fingers is to remind us to lead with our fingers.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:55 AM   #24
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:20 PM   #25
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
As far as what David said above me, I agree. My sensei always tells us to imagine both our fingers are linked via a string. When he lifts his arm up to attack, my arm should go up too to catch under the elbow.
That is the Harmony (Ai) in Aikido.

David
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