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Old 10-29-2012, 06:18 AM   #26
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
What is the alternative you suggest if you are a woman or a senior (the bb in aikido is nice but nobody at 83 has the muscle mass and proprioception of a young fit man) at home and afraid because there is an intruder who may/not be armed and whose intent you prudently must assume is malevolent? To huddle under a bed or in a closet and hope for the best? I'll be grabbing something to enhance my personal capabilities, make use of my superior ability to navigate my home in the dark and hope the decision as to where and how to engage is of my choosing .
My suggestion is to get out of the house, if possible. I would also encourage the individual to arm themself with something for defense if the intruder is encountered on the way out. As you said, they have the superior ability to navigate their home in the dark. But certainly I am not saying cower under the bed hoping nothing happens.

As for the 83 year olds muscle mass and proprioception. I doubt the 83 year old could give a 30 year old a run for his money at the gym, either lifting weights or on the treadmill. However, he is a grown man and certainly if he has a blackbelt (and that is all it says in the article so we assume he only has a shodan) that his proprioception is decent. Probably better than someone that doesn't train marital arts.

Beyond that however is the fact that after the intruder jumped off their balcony the article says both seniors were in pursuit. The article doesn't give enough information on this point. Did the seniors jump from the balcony and give chase? (I doubt that.) But if they had to run down a flight of stairs, out the front door, and then after the intruder...again I think proprioception is decent.

Even wounded the intruder was able to out run the old folks but think about this...why did the couple chase after him? The intruder no longer posed a threat to them.

Interestingly enough the article does not mention who called the police and when they were called.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
(there is a reason aikido trains to elicit a specific attack).
I do not understand this statement.

Last edited by Lyle Laizure : 10-29-2012 at 06:24 AM.

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Old 10-29-2012, 06:27 AM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Even wounded the intruder was able to out run the old folks but think about this...why did the couple chase after him? The intruder no longer posed a threat to them.
Because not everybody stays 100% rational "in the moment" and some of us are by personality (or having been raised in Brooklyn ) under stress subject to unwise reactions like "that sucker has my handbag!" (or "who does that young whippersnapper think he is?") which may not be sensible but there you have it...on a rational and legal basis I agree this was foolish but...we are human and yeah I'm guessing they wanted her handbags on principle.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:31 AM   #28
Janet Rosen
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
(there is a reason aikido trains to elicit a specific attack).
I do not understand this statement.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. tactics.
In the dojo, nage offers a shoulder or a straight stance or a wrist, or in some styles may initiate an attack. It implies that nage knows there is going to be an attack and is taking the initiative to define when and how.
In home defense situation, I'd take that option rather than hide or evade, allowing the intruder to be in control of where and how he attacks.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:42 AM   #29
Alex Megann
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

This is a very current issue in the UK. The current "coalition" government, which seems to be listing rightwards day by day, has proposed a loosening of the law covering what is a "reasonable" response to an intruder in one's home:

BBC article

Alex
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:53 AM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Props to Mr Dowdy.

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:22 AM   #31
Janet Rosen
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
This is a very current issue in the UK. The current "coalition" government, which seems to be listing rightwards day by day, has proposed a loosening of the law covering what is a "reasonable" response to an intruder in one's home:

BBC article

Alex
From the article:
"Can the intruder be chased if they run off?

"It all comes down to the fundamental question of what was proportionate in the moment and what the householder genuinely believed. If an intruder flees the scene, then at that moment they might not be presenting a threat to the householder any longer. This means that a householder who chases and attacks could no longer be considered to be acting in self-defence. Reasonable force can still be used to recover property or make a citizen's arrest.

"The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has suggested in the past that "a rugby tackle or a single blow would probably be reasonable" because these are designed to stop the criminal, rather than to inflict grievous harm."

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:11 AM   #32
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
In home defense situation, I'd take that option rather than hide or evade, allowing the intruder to be in control of where and how he attacks.
I would agree and go as far as saying it doesn't matter if it is a home defense situation or otherwise. If you need to defend yourself, as the defender, you should defend yourself on your own terms.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:13 AM   #33
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Because not everybody stays 100% rational "in the moment" and some of us are by personality (or having been raised in Brooklyn ) under stress subject to unwise reactions like "that sucker has my handbag!" (or "who does that young whippersnapper think he is?") which may not be sensible but there you have it...on a rational and legal basis I agree this was foolish but...we are human and yeah I'm guessing they wanted her handbags on principle.
I realize "in the moment" it is difficult to maintain rationality. And I agree with the principle of "how dare this person get away with this if there is something I can do about it." So on this we can agree?

Lyle Laizure
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:19 AM   #34
Marc Abrams
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Tony Mills wrote: View Post
It's when they run into it several time it becomes annoying!
I feel sorry for the blade! Without a good cleaning, it could get rusty !

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:53 AM   #35
Janet Rosen
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I realize "in the moment" it is difficult to maintain rationality. And I agree with the principle of "how dare this person get away with this if there is something I can do about it." So on this we can agree?
Sure...esp. as I readily admit it isn't often the advisable path to take!

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:48 PM   #36
C. David Henderson
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
In line with Mary's comments, I strongly recommend that martial arts students research their own local laws regarding self defense. Some states establish a duty to retreat while others don't. There is no simple explanation that cuts across all jurisdictions. You simply have to know and apply the law in your jurisdiction in a situation like this, or you are in grave danger of running afoul of the law even if you feel your actions are reasonable.
I agree. Here in the "wild west," there is no duty to retreat. Perhaps more importantly, the legal doctrine called "defense of habitation" would have provided fairly broad protection to the Dowdy's, and likely would affect a prosecutor's decision whether to go forward with criminal charges.

Here, "defense of habitation" provides even deadly force may be used to prevent the commission of "a felony" within a defendant's home. The felony being prevented is not limited to felonies that pose an immanent risk of death or great bodily harm to the defendant (or another).

A New Mexico jury in a criminal case brought against someone under the facts related likely would receive the following jury instruction (with blanks filled in based on the facts of the case as provided by the use notes):
14-5170. Justifiable homicide; defense of habitation.1

Evidence has been presented that the defendant killed __________________ (name of victim) while attempting to prevent a __________________2 in the defendant's __________________3.
A killing in defense of __________________3 is justified if:

1. The __________________3 was being used as the defendant's dwelling; and

2. It appeared to the defendant that the commission of __________________2 was immediately at hand and that it was necessary to kill the intruder to prevent the commission of __________________2; and

3. A reasonable person in the same circumstances as the defendant would have acted as the defendant did.

The burden is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not kill in defense of __________________3. If you have a reasonable doubt as to whether the defendant killed in defense of __________________3, you must find the defendant not guilty.

USE NOTE
1. If this instruction is given, add to the essential elements instruction for the offense charged, "The defendant did not kill in defense of __________________3".

2. Describe the felony being committed or attempted.

3. Identify the place where the killing occurred.
So, local laws do differ in important was. Still, to say that a jury might acquit doesn't mean that it will. If the state disproves that a "reasonable person in the same circumstances as the defendant would have acted as the defendant," the jury should convict.

David Henderson
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:54 AM   #37
SteliosPapadakis
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

In Greece, the article's respective grandfather, would have found himself in handcuffs for defending himself, his loved ones and his property. He then would have to go on and defend himself against all sorts of ridiculous accusations of "wanting to harm the innocent intruder" and the sort. And still, even if thousands would gather outside the court shouting on his support, he would get a prison sentence that he would have to buy out in order to avoid the slammer.
Crappy laws and similar sh*t...
Thumbs up for his courage and persistence!
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:48 AM   #38
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Hi folks,

Please keep your tone respectful and please keep your posts explicitly pertinent to aikido in the thread.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 10-30-2012, 06:56 AM   #39
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Are you a lawyer, Stelios? Do you have personal experience in these matters?
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:08 AM   #40
Cliff Judge
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

I just don't think knives are very good home defense tools. There is a brandishing factor, of course, but if that fails and you have to use the thing, its a hell of a mess. Carpets will need to be replaced. I expect there will be a lingering smell of blood for years. The knife handle will be slick with blood and it will be hard to hold onto the thing; the weapon could be turned against you.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:44 PM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Are you a lawyer, Stelios? Do you have personal experience in these matters?
This is a recent example of the greek law regarding self defense:

A 26-year old Greek woman has become an overnight national hero after setting fire to the genitals of a 23-year old drunken Briton who allegedly tried to sexually assault her in a crowded bar.
...
However, the magistrate and prosecutor also unanimously agreed to set the woman free pending trial, an indication that they accepted her argument that she "acted in justified self-defence".


Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-genitals.html

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Old 11-18-2012, 01:09 AM   #42
SteliosPapadakis
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Are you a lawyer, Stelios? Do you have personal experience in these matters?
Not a lawyer Mary, yet two of my friends are, one specializing herself in criminal law.
In a village not far away from where i live, a family relative (age 80something, widower who lives alone, his house broken into twice in the last couple of years) sleeps with a shotgun close to his bed.
He wakes up in the middle of the night after hearing noises. He sees a robber at the other end of the room going through his belongings. He shouts at the man, the man takes out a long knife and walks towards the grandpa asking where the money is. Grandpa reaches for the shotgun and shoots the robber.
He then calls for the police.
He ends up in prison, the robber (without any serious wounds, just superficial mostly to the legs) after a month or so in prison is repatriated to his country (after violating the laws of illegal immigration).
After three trials, our relative is released on bail after suffering a stroke in prison.
Now, the problems here are many and their nature complicated enough...
And it is easy to propose solutions or address these problems philosophically.
But an armed attack in your own home remains an armed attack in your own home. And only unless you (touch wood) find yourself in such a difficult situation, can you understand how superficial laws and philosophy can touch such a matter. I really hope nobody ever, EVER, has to deal with such a constipated situation in their lives.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:58 AM   #43
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Hi Everyone,
I asked Jutta for some follow up after this traumatic event. Its sobering stuff. here is the link
best,
dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:16 AM   #44
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

THANK YOU, Daniel, for the follow up.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:14 AM   #45
Krystal Locke
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Hi Everyone,
I asked Jutta for some follow up after this traumatic event. Its sobering stuff. here is the link
best,
dan
Pretty good read for folks who dont know what a physical altercation or personal assault is like. She has captured the negative side of an adrenaline rush pretty well, and is still clearly feeling some of the psychological effects, jumping from the carpets to the credit cards to the invasiveness of the media to needing the light in the hall on.....

I wonder how her fellow is doing, but she wouldn't be wrong to keep the media off of him. He's got to be dealing with some nasty stuff, too, since he actually injured someone, intentionally or not, self-defense or not.

Sounds like the intruder got caught pretty handily and is where he needs to be....
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:56 AM   #46
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Re: 83 year old aikido black belt repels home invader.

Thank you for the update, Daniel! I've had my home broken into a few times and that was troubling enough without coming face to face. I hope things are settling down for them and return to a sense of normalcy!
Take care,
Matt

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