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Old 10-10-2012, 05:53 PM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Does being thrown seem like losing to you?
Being thrown sounds like fun to me. Extending Ki sounds like basic Aikido principle to me. Advanced or further forward on any page would therefor to me be being better able to do so continuously.

I have never heard of 'making no connection to anybody' in the realms of Aikido before today.

Peace.G.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:02 PM   #27
yugen
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
3. How smart would you be to open your center up to "making a connection" to my center or trying to make a four legged animal, with me?
It is not a very smart idea, and it is not the way. You will always be open to being controlled, to being late and "reactionary or responding to their movement. It is not the way to exert your will on them as Ueshiba outlined as aiki. When you move with a bujutsu body; they are late, they are reacting and they are open to being owned.

Takeda, Sagawa, Horikawa, Hisa, Ueshiba. Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Tohei and Saotome were all known to "feel" different....and be devastatingly effective...sans any technique....and could not be thrown.
Where?
When?
And what dojo(s)?
Was that once considered...good?
Now......
_________________________
We are being taught
To be thrown
And we are convinced it is grand

_________________________

If we do not feel like them......
Why not?
Dan
My answers to your questions:

I would not want to open my center to you - its disconcerting and scary. To the questions where, when and what dojos is that considered good - I don't know. Hence my thoughts and questions on ukemi methodology - was there another practice for the reason behind ukemi? Which I think mirrors Gregory's question of how is ukemi to be reconciled?

"If we do not feel like them, why not?" my answer, the internal practice isn't there or was never shown - from my own felt experience. Secondly - its hard work to get that good, the body work is slow and hard to acquire and requires diligence.

So Dan my question to you. In your seminars you say that the Masters only taught this good stuff to a few. Is it possible they were just singling out the people who showed the desire and required diligence? i.e. why waste time with people who don't want to put in the work?
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:24 PM   #28
Garth
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm not particularly troubled if I am on the same page as someone. I do what I do, they do what they do. Although, I have found it interesting that an incredible array of aikido teachers call what I do Aiki......do.
No matter. This thread is concerning an approach to higher levels of budo. If aikido-ka want to think that their art is unique in all the world and functions on principles never discovered by man....well....good luck with that.
For everyone else.
This model I outlined is not my own. There is much to be discussed on why "making connect" and the "four legged model is not a good path. I made an opening case, can we discuss my questions?
Cheers
Dan
To me , your questions become abundantly and sufficiently answered with "hands on" and no other way/
And also to be put into words here , would sufficiently alienate 90 percent of the "average"(their problem not yours ) (lack of self contemplation maybe?)
Why am I studying this?
what use is it?
ETC, are basics some people never bother to ask themselves.
I think there was direct transmission break when the founder died(as far aikido is concerned) either by choice or misunderstanding as to where he intended "it" to go. As evidenced by lack of people actually doing this type of work.
Prewar guys (some) got it, not so much after the war, why?
Also, I blame the 60's
G out

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:23 PM   #29
yugen
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
To me , your questions become abundantly and sufficiently answered with "hands on" and no other way/
And also to be put into words here , would sufficiently alienate 90 percent of the "average"(their problem not yours ) (lack of self contemplation maybe?)
Gregory,

By "hands on" do you mean always maintaining physical contact?

-Ryan
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:59 PM   #30
hughrbeyer
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
So you know,..... the next question to be asked (i know too wordy to be answered online) but how is the problem of ukemi to reconciled?
Interesting question. O-Sensei learned aiki from Takeda; in his own development of it he created Aikido. Aikido, all the way back to the 1935 Asahi News demonstration, includes lots of the big ukemi we're familiar with. (Finessing here the question of whether in 1935 O-Sensei was doing Daito-ryu, Aikido, or something intermediate. Whatever he was doing, it included the big ukemi.)

Plus, he said that ukemi softens the joints, or knocks the ki loose in the joints. That's another translation I'd love to see Chris Li look at.

So the guy who knew all about aiki and created Aikido as a vehicle for expressing it didn't see a need to get rid of ukemi. He seemed to think ukemi was important to learning what he was trying to teach.

In our dojo, where our sensei is integrating aiki concepts into everything, ukemi is both feedback to nage and a martial response on the part of uke to keep themselves protected throughout the technique. (Ellis Amdur talks about this in Ukemi from the ground up--you keep yourself centered and protected until you can't anymore, at which point you roll out.)

So if I'm working with a kohai, and they're putting a technique on by trying to oppose force with muscle, I don't move. I don't freeze up, but I don't let them move me. If they try to deal with force by moving out of the way, or trying to move the point of contact out of the way, I move in on them to demonstrate that they've just opened themselves up. If they move even the littlest bit correctly, I allow myself to be moved by it, trying to remain open and sensitive to their movement so my response is genuine, not forced. Yes, I could shut them down, but that's not the point. This continues up to the point where I either have to lose balance or step out of the technique we're practicing and do something else. At that point, I take the fall.

This lets them practice and gives me practice feeling exactly what they're doing, so I learn where they're tense, where their weight is, and how they're trying to apply force.

Total agreement that this kind of ukemi is not just giving up and falling. At every point, I'm responding only as much as I need to--there's always the possibility of reversing the technique if nage screws up. And you have to maintain zanshin all through the roll and after. (One of Sensei's favorite tricks is, if you try to stand up from a fall too close to him, he just punches you on the way up.)

But from the outside, it doesn't look that different from anybody else's ukemi. It's all in the feeling.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:36 AM   #31
tombuchanan
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Isn't a center to center connection just a little bit too much like a fair fight?

It's not only giving away the intention, it's also providing an optimal path for resistance. Why study martial arts at all if you're going to do that? Doesn't it just become a different sort of strength contest?

Wouldn't "all of you" against "some of them" be better?

If I can find "the center" of their resistance and attack that, without exposing my foundation, there is less of a "handle" for them to resist me with? Maybe something like that?

Last edited by tombuchanan : 10-11-2012 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:04 AM   #32
Garth
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Ryan Schoelerman wrote: View Post
Gregory,

By "hands on" do you mean always maintaining physical contact?

-Ryan
I meant " hands on" or training in person w/ Dan or other competent IS artist. All the BS ends almost immediately.
The only thing left to say after one of those sessions is "how you do that".
A lot of people are afraid to realize "what they dont know"
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:08 AM   #33
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

"So if I'm working with a kohai, and they're putting a technique on by trying to oppose force with muscle, I don't move. I don't freeze up, but I don't let them move me. If they try to deal with force by moving out of the way, or trying to move the point of contact out of the way, I move in on them to demonstrate that they've just opened themselves up. If they move even the littlest bit correctly, I allow myself to be moved by it, trying to remain open and sensitive to their movement so my response is genuine, not forced. Yes, I could shut them down, but that's not the point. This continues up to the point where I either have to lose balance or step out of the technique we're practicing and do something else. At that point, I take the fall. " Hugh Beyer

I like that, good on you for putting into words.
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:59 AM   #34
yugen
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
I meant " hands on" or training in person w/ Dan or other competent IS artist. All the BS ends almost immediately.
The only thing left to say after one of those sessions is "how you do that".
A lot of people are afraid to realize "what they dont know"
G
ah, yes, true.
-R
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:01 PM   #35
Cliff Judge
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

So seeking connection, making unity, training without competition, these are no longer "real" aikido? Or they at least belong in the "There is nothing WRONG with that, BUT...." bucket.

Okay, great.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:32 PM   #36
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

I think that when someone has a bujutsu body, has done the work there is no competition when you touch them. That produces unity and connection.

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:49 PM   #37
Cliff Judge
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I think that when someone has a bujutsu body, has done the work there is no competition when you touch them. That produces unity and connection.
Sounds from the original post that unity and connection make you a Tom, Dick, and Harry who has wasted your life.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:56 PM   #38
Lee Salzman
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Sounds from the original post that unity and connection make you a Tom, Dick, and Harry who has wasted your life.
I don't think that's what is being articulated here by Jeremy. If your center is so profoundly non-resistant, you don't have to move it - anything anyone puts into you just echos back - mountain echo. So as Jeremy says, there is no competition, they just feel themselves mirrored in you - they never get to tag your center.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:22 PM   #39
Cliff Judge
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I don't think that's what is being articulated here by Jeremy. If your center is so profoundly non-resistant, you don't have to move it - anything anyone puts into you just echos back - mountain echo. So as Jeremy says, there is no competition, they just feel themselves mirrored in you - they never get to tag your center.
I was not responding to what Jeremy was saying.

Though I guess I could ask in what way this type of reflection or mirroring results in connection or unity?
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:27 PM   #40
Lee Salzman
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I was not responding to what Jeremy was saying.

Though I guess I could ask in what way this type of reflection or mirroring results in connection or unity?
They are not fighting you, you are not fighting them. They are one with you, not the other way around. They are connected to you, not the other way around. You, you're just being the happy old mountain. What do you care if some rabble wants to push on you?
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:38 PM   #41
yugen
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I was not responding to what Jeremy was saying.

Though I guess I could ask in what way this type of reflection or mirroring results in connection or unity?
The connection or unity in my experience is that if you are the aggressor and launch an attack you quickly find you have no opening for your attack and quickly find yourself reacting and defending to protect yourself.

The uncanny and disconcerting thing is you don't feel overwhelmed by strength or power or timing, its a feeling that the guy with the bujutsu body is suddenly always one step ahead of you. So you start reacting to make your exit, but its blocked because you're one step behind. You feel like you're stuck or glued and only can exit until its allowed (i.e. your thrown, struck or joint lock) that's the unity and the connection.

It's like if you're running down hill with no control and the bujutsu body guy is controlling the slope of the hill.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:54 PM   #42
Cliff Judge
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
They are not fighting you, you are not fighting them. They are one with you, not the other way around. They are connected to you, not the other way around. You, you're just being the happy old mountain. What do you care if some rabble wants to push on you?
This is a little pacifistic of an image for me, and it sounds very different than what Dan was originally talking about. But that's fine, except you are still toast if your opponent happens to be a river, a glacier, or dynamite.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:44 PM   #43
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Gary
Your comments about people not being on the same page is truly appropriate. Particularly your recognition that like it or not, get it or not....we are in fact reading the same playbook. This is a major sticking point for many in budo who still erroneously believe that their master teachers were somehow unique in all the world.
We keep pointing out that "the work" we are discussing (Internal strength that produces aiki) is ages old and was taught in several cultures and was the source material for many of the greats. I am intrigued -and continuing to research- to find mounting evidence that it was the source material for a significant number of the giants in budo .
It makes all the more sense considering the effects it is having on modern budo people doing the work. In an of itself the evidence is irrefutable for most budo practitioners of all types, but Aikido in particular becomes troubling- for those who continue to believe their master teacher was unique.
Why?
Because he himself kept pointing to the fact that it wasn't his. He cited Takeda and kept quoting Chinese sources and terminology. Terminology that in and of itself was revealing in that it consistently pointed to work that predated Ueshiba. So at a point all people are really saying is "I didn't get educated in this in my budo career."

Two centers or one?
Since the main thrust of the work was in solo training it begs...positively begs the question
"Why develop the center in solo training in the first place?"
what was so important in developing center of yourself?
Why would Sagawa say that AIki was in developing the body through solo training...and only a fool thinks you can get it through techniques?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1.Being thrown sounds like fun to me.
2. Extending Ki sounds like basic Aikido principle to me.
3. I have never heard of 'making no connection to anybody' in the realms of Aikido before today.
Peace.G.
1. That's fine. Have fun. But, being thrown and liking to be thrown pretty much promises that- as an end result. Even when...you... don't want to be thrown-when up against those training NOT to be thrown.
2. Extending ki as an age old model is not the same as is often described here. From what I have seen and read; Tohei meant and actually did -one thing- and just about everyone I have met is doing something different. From what I see and feel, most understand the "model" but can't pull off the balance of yin and yang in one center, therefore they are hopelessly outclassed against someone who trains their center in a more sophisticated manner to retain itself.
3. I know you have never heard of not making a connection with two centers. That's fine too. Have fun with it. It has escaped your attention and education that virtually all of the higher level arts have solo training (including your Master teacher) just for that reason. Exposing your center by connecting will forever leave you vulnerable and reactive. Doing it with people who train UEshiba's way will guarantee...absolutely guarantee that you will lose. This is why Ueshiba stated ...his... way of aiki was to exert your will on others.
I know you do not understand that, that is why he did not cooperate and all of the tales about him were of him doing what??????
Winning
He was after all a budo man. Budo men tend to be like that. THat's why their famous and no one else is. No one wants or cares..what the loser...had.
Dan
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:42 PM   #44
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
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No one wants or cares..what the loser...had.
Dan
I know not all of us consider ourselves as praciticing Japanese martial arts, but some people mentioned in this thread do. So I figure it might be appropriate to point out that nothing makes the Japanese more misty-eyed than a good loser. In point of fact, traditions that derive gravitas from the Kashima shrine often hearken back to Yoshitsune himself, perhaps the hunkiest, most awesome loser in all of Japanese history. He is said to have been trained by a Tengu on mount Kurama. This was before he was so instrumental in helping his brother win the big war between the Minamoto and the Taira that his brother had him dealt with. So he was definitely a loser and yet is considered one of the patron saints of martial arts.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:22 PM   #45
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I know not all of us consider ourselves as praciticing Japanese martial arts, but some people mentioned in this thread do. So I figure it might be appropriate to point out that nothing makes the Japanese more misty-eyed than a good loser. In point of fact, traditions that derive gravitas from the Kashima shrine often hearken back to Yoshitsune himself, perhaps the hunkiest, most awesome loser in all of Japanese history. He is said to have been trained by a Tengu on mount Kurama. This was before he was so instrumental in helping his brother win the big war between the Minamoto and the Taira that his brother had him dealt with. So he was definitely a loser and yet is considered one of the patron saints of martial arts.
Yoshitsune WHO????..............exactly!!!!

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:31 PM   #46
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Didnt mean to be glib.
Exactly the difference is that Yoshi is relegated to a shrine in Japan, that only a Japanophile would know of , and Ueshiba amongst others(see Chinese, Indian martial masters) have something that has reached around the world several times. Whatever Yoshi had is in that shrine with him.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:17 PM   #47
Cliff Judge
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Didnt mean to be glib.
Exactly the difference is that Yoshi is relegated to a shrine in Japan, that only a Japanophile would know of , and Ueshiba amongst others(see Chinese, Indian martial masters) have something that has reached around the world several times. Whatever Yoshi had is in that shrine with him.
It is also in anybody who trains a Kashima-oriented tradition. Who might that list inlude? Hmm...
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:08 PM   #48
DH
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Good grief Cliff, don't be so- over the top-with it!! It's not conducive to the conversation and makes it travel off topic.
Dan
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:55 PM   #49
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

This whole question of NOT connecting center to center, but preventing your opponent from connecting to your center, was THE first big revelation for me when picking up this IS stuff. And it was apparently also significant for my teacher, who has a few more years on the mat than I do. But in practice, it creates the experience of kuzushi-on-contact and in fact makes aikido techniques work without collusion, and without depending particularly on momentum or timing.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:54 AM   #50
Ellis Amdur
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The four-legged animal metaphor

In the interest of precision, there is frequent reference to the "four-legged animal" metaphor, a term pioneered, as I understand it, by Tohei Koichi, who stated his disagreement with Ueshiba K. was that, if I have it corrrectly, that he believed that aiki was something that was developed within one whereas Ueshiba K. believed it happened between two individuals (awase). Whether he was fair to Ueshiba K. is not germane, at the moment.

So my question is, when there is a reference to the "four legged animal," and criticism of the utility of this image, is the critic speaking about which of the two attached images, that of Tohei Koichi or that of Dr. Doolittle?

Ellis Amdur
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Four-legged animal - Dr. Doolittle.pdf (181.6 KB, 166 views)
File Type: pdf Four-legged animal - Tohei.pdf (303.0 KB, 206 views)

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