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Old 10-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #276
Tengu859
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Chris Western wrote: View Post
Hey Carl,

This quote from your last post seems to describe the solo body training that these IP/Aiki guys are talking about...So when Osensei described his training as "A forging (tanren) of one's own mind (kokoro), the body and the ki that connects them, bringing all three simultaneously into harmony with the workings of the universe and all things" Sounds like standing on the floating bridge. :0) That would be the principal of aiki...!!!

Take Care,

ChrisW
PS Awase not included... :0)!!!
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:01 PM   #277
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
2. What is the principle of the broad term "awase" that David Alexander is talking about? Has any been made attempt to find out?

So when Osensei described his training as "A forging (tanren) of one's own mind (kokoro), the body and the ki that connects them, bringing all three simultaneously into harmony with the workings of the universe and all things" what principle was involved? Bear in mind that the original Japanese uses "musubu" 結ぶ for "connect" and I took no liberties in translating "chowa" 調和 as "harmony". Awase 合わせ is a broader term and, for example, could even include the reigi in the dojo. Why spend all that time on tanren, forging the body if the principle is just pre-emptive movement?

So what are you saying Alexander Sensei meant by awase? Are you just using Mark's "modern aikido" version? Being faster than the other guy, leading etc while using conventional forces?

Regards

Carl
Well, I suppose we must take Mr. Alexander at his word when he defines the following:

Quote:
iwamaki wrote: View Post
The concept of AWASE is to merge into an opponent's attacking movement and take control. During the initial engagement the defender maintains perfect balance and perfect stance, whereas the technique is designed such that the balance and stance of the attacker are destroyed. The attacker is thereby brought under control immediately. The technique is completed by continuing the movement into a joint lock, pin, throw, etc.

A general conception of AIKIDO is that the principle is to use an attacker's own power against him. Although this is true to some extent, AWASE is more dynamic. The defender uses his own body movement to merge into the attacker's power. It is also possible to initiate a movement that will create an attack into the defender's sphere of control. After the initial engagement, the attacker's power is irrelevant because his balance is gone and he cannot bring his power to bear.
Note the specific point there - "... AWASE is more dynamic. The defender uses his own body movement to merge into the attacker's power. ..."

Whereas, the concept of aiki being espoused here does not require movement. It does not require merging into the attacker's power. With aiki, you are merely being you - you were being you before the encounter, you are being you during the encounter, you are being you after the encounter. It is just that, through tanren, you have changed what "being you" means so that anyone who encounters you is encountering a body infused with aiki. Perhaps closer to what Mr. Alexander calls above a "perfect balance", except it does not require a stance or a holding a static position or hanmi, nor does it require moving - whatever you do, it is infused with aiki.

Even taking balance, while a potential side-effect of aiki, is not required - the attacker cannot bring his power to bear because you are aiki - not because he has no balance. In a tautological sort of way, with aiki, the attacker's power is irrelevant simply because the attacker's power is irrelevant.

The concept of awase, such as he is describing it, is not the point of contention. The contention is he equates awase with aiki:

Quote:
iwamaki wrote: View Post
Also associated with the particular focus of every martial art is some aspect which makes it unique in relation to the others. In AIKIDO this is AWASE, which can also be called the principle of AIKI. AWASE literally means "come together", and AIKIDO is generally the "way of uniting with KI (spirit)".

Saito-sensei stressed the principle of Awase every day in our training in Iwama.
So, yes, awase is important to his execution of aikido. But it is not, as defined by Mr. Alexander previously, the principle of aiki. It is sort of like the nitpicking about "extend ki" vs. "ki is extended", you don't merge into the attacker, he merges into you, where aiki is concerned.

You are taken out of the equation in a sense - transparent power. How can one harmonize with an attacker if they have to exert their will on the attacker's will with the attacker's permission - subvert, covert, or any other way? That is discord.

You exert your will - and the attacker follows your will - that is harmony - everything in its right place. There was no physical blending, no timing tricks - they touched you and became part of you without you doing anything to them or reading them. Why forge the mind and body if in the end you are just assimilating to the attacker's will? You forge the mind and body to not fight the attacker's will - no discord, you simply don't even consider it - so that you can do what you want, and the attacker's coming along for the ride because he can't resist.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 10-23-2012 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:31 AM   #278
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
One of the really really really freeing aspects of not DOING Aikido anymore, is not needing to worry about whether or not what I'm doing is Aikido. I can just train and enjoy getting better. Someone can tell me, "you're not doing Aikido!" and I can say, "Yes! You're right! Gold stars and cupcakes all around! It's pretty cool though, wanna play?"

PERSONALLY (and this is NOT from Dan, so don't claim he's saying it on or off-line) I don't think there's actually that much of OSensei in Aikido™, but agree with Stan Pranin that it's largely the legacy of Tohei and Kisshomaru. But since I no longer DO Aikido regularly, I don't need to convince anyone else of that. Aikido uses the word AIKI differently than I do, so while it may sound like we're talking about the same thing, we're not.
LOL. Exactly my sentiments. Saves me all the time from telling people that what they are doing is not "true AIKIdo". They can believe whatever they want to believe.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:43 AM   #279
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Well, I suppose we must take Mr. Alexander at his word when he defines the following:

Note the specific point there - "... AWASE is more dynamic. The defender uses his own body movement to merge into the attacker's power. ..."

Whereas, the concept of aiki being espoused here does not require movement. It does not require merging into the attacker's power. With aiki, you are merely being you - you were being you before the encounter, you are being you during the encounter, you are being you after the encounter. It is just that, through tanren, you have changed what "being you" means so that anyone who encounters you is encountering a body infused with aiki. Perhaps closer to what Mr. Alexander calls above a "perfect balance", except it does not require a stance or a holding a static position or hanmi, nor does it require moving - whatever you do, it is infused with aiki.

Even taking balance, while a potential side-effect of aiki, is not required - the attacker cannot bring his power to bear because you are aiki - not because he has no balance. In a tautological sort of way, with aiki, the attacker's power is irrelevant simply because the attacker's power is irrelevant.

The concept of awase, such as he is describing it, is not the point of contention. The contention is he equates awase with aiki:

So, yes, awase is important to his execution of aikido. But it is not, as defined by Mr. Alexander previously, the principle of aiki. It is sort of like the nitpicking about "extend ki" vs. "ki is extended", you don't merge into the attacker, he merges into you, where aiki is concerned.

You are taken out of the equation in a sense - transparent power. How can one harmonize with an attacker if they have to exert their will on the attacker's will with the attacker's permission - subvert, covert, or any other way? That is discord.

You exert your will - and the attacker follows your will - that is harmony - everything in its right place. There was no physical blending, no timing tricks - they touched you and became part of you without you doing anything to them or reading them. Why forge the mind and body if in the end you are just assimilating to the attacker's will? You forge the mind and body to not fight the attacker's will - no discord, you simply don't even consider it - so that you can do what you want, and the attacker's coming along for the ride because he can't resist.
Well said Lee!

Greg
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:48 AM   #280
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You actually believe he was involved in "precisely" transmitting 118+ paired kata?
No, the opposite.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:03 AM   #281
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Actually, yeah, some of it is. Did you miss my posts where I stated that some of the stuff I trained from Dan was exactly the same as what Ueshiba handed down ... outside Tokyo hombu. No, I won't say who or where. If you do the research, you find the trails.
I'm sorry Mark, I don't have any confidence in your ability to tell whether two things are actually the same, or whether you are overexcited by some fractional degree of similarity.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:24 AM   #282
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Depends on the person, I guess, but even standing absolutely still can get into an enormous amount of detail.

Besides, the post-war students never learned the 118.

Best,

Chris
Right, that was Stan's point when he initially wrote that article. Pre-war, students spent about 5-6 years with Osensei. Postwar, he was in and out of hombu. So Stan's arguing that, because that's not enough time to correctly teach all the intricate details of his Aikido, the lesser-known prewar and postwar Hombu students developed in different directions.

Let's look at the Hombu people. How much time did Osensei spend at Hombu? I'm thinking he spent a couple of weeks a year there? So, probably a bit longer than AikIP students spend with Dan each year, right? People are training with Dan, going home with stuff to work on, working on it diligently, and everybody is saying they are making progress, it is opening doors, blowing minds, etc.

Now...given that the Hombu had uchi-deshi who were there to train 60 hours a week, as well as a lot of really dedicated soto deshi, it seems to me that if Ueshiba had a system anything like Dan's, the fact that he was not there very often would not detract from the quality of the Aikido there.

Osensei would roll into town, come onto the mat, and talk about the kojiki. He'd define what he meant in the context of solo training. he'd explain it as a physical process, and display power. Then everyone would do their solo training in their spare time, then next time Osensei came to town he would test everyone.

But he didn't. He didn't transmit this, it is not a part of his teachings.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:51 AM   #283
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Now...given that the Hombu had uchi-deshi who were there to train 60 hours a week, as well as a lot of really dedicated soto deshi, it seems to me that if Ueshiba had a system anything like Dan's, the fact that he was not there very often would not detract from the quality of the Aikido there.

Osensei would roll into town, come onto the mat, and talk about the kojiki. He'd define what he meant in the context of solo training. he'd explain it as a physical process, and display power. Then everyone would do their solo training in their spare time, then next time Osensei came to town he would test everyone.

But he didn't. He didn't transmit this, it is not a part of his teachings.
Yes ...he did to prewar students. We only know of some who talked about it but they had power and they had solo training. Shirata had a series. It would be interesting to read expanded versions of why virtually all of them went to hombu -run by Kisshomaru- and all stated that what they saw....was not the aikido they knew.
Couple that with Osensei showing up and booming "This is not my Aikido!" and it is pretty clear that none of the people involved in prewar Aikido recognized what Kisshomaru was doing as....aikido.

That said....
Why did all the pre-war guys -we know of- exhibit power and yet very few of the post war guys had it?

And, can we leave "Dan" out of this please. Sure I am arguing for a method but it isn't my method. All I can do is ask nicely but gees....

Dan
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:01 AM   #284
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Note the specific point there - "... AWASE is more dynamic. The defender uses his own body movement to merge into the attacker's power. ..."

Whereas, the concept of aiki being espoused here does not require movement. It does not require merging into the attacker's power. With aiki, you are merely being you - you were being you before the encounter, you are being you during the encounter, you are being you after the encounter. It is just that, through tanren, you have changed what "being you" means so that anyone who encounters you is encountering a body infused with aiki. Perhaps closer to what Mr. Alexander calls above a "perfect balance", except it does not require a stance or a holding a static position or hanmi, nor does it require moving - whatever you do, it is infused with aiki.
Thanks for taking the time to examine the article and I appreciate the attempt to cross-reference it with a good account of IP/Aiki. I've never trained with Alexander Sensei or his main teacher, but from other teachers associated with him, I get the impression that the "using his own body movement to merge" part is the deployment of a forged aikido body, and that in itself is done according to the principle called awase (aka: musubi). I think the connected training for the deployment of kokyu-power, along with it's tanren is the issue some IP/Aiki practitioner have .

If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions about the body you described (that does not require moving because everything is infused with the AIKI). If someone throws a punch at you, do you move? If someone cuts at you with a bladed weapon, do you move? If you do move, how disconnected can your movement be from the body, minds and intent of the attacker(s)?

Regards

Carl
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:05 AM   #285
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Christopher Li wrote:
Depends on the person, I guess, but even standing absolutely still can get into an enormous amount of detail.

Besides, the post-war students never learned the 118.

Best,

Chris
Even talking about the 118 is indicative of the lack of form. they are not all the same school to school. But since it is supposed to be uniform...how'd that happen?
Aiki is formless. Takeda, like Ueshiba did not like to repeat anything. They were free wheeling it and making stuff up-including Takeda making up more scrolls-as he went along.
I suppose if you are deeply invested in learning a set form through waza, testing on it and achieving rank for knowing them and then being a teacher and such, and then finding out that virtually no one in the founding of the art gave a rats ass about waza as opposed to internal power to make aiki and *you* have no idea what that is, why it is and how to do it, it can be a bit of surprise. Seems like it was to Chiba, when he talked about Ueshiba shouting "This is not my Aikido" and start to lecture them.

Interestingly, one of those post war deshi...apparently also "victimized" by Ueshiba's speeches, notes that Ueshiba ran in one day with an anatomy chart he had found and started telling them "See, this is what I've been talking about!!"
Makes the lecture you just couldn't stand listening to; lets say on the cosmology of heaven/earth/man have some teeth to it, when you see the body parts involved in the methodology and then you are knocked on your ass by it.
Dan
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:15 AM   #286
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Chris Western wrote: View Post
Hey Carl,

This quote from your last post seems to describe the solo body training that these IP/Aiki guys are talking about...So when Osensei described his training as "A forging (tanren) of one's own mind (kokoro), the body and the ki that connects them, bringing all three simultaneously into harmony with the workings of the universe and all things" Sounds like standing on the floating bridge. :0) That would be the principal of aiki...!!!

Take Care,

ChrisW
Thanks Chris

I think Takemusu Aiki is the intended result of training with the founder's principles, including awase/musubi. To an extent, at this stage I think TA has similarities with other kokyu-tanren methods at least, in that first you're building a body. That's where my interest comes from regarding the IP/Aiki situation.

Regards

Carl
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:17 AM   #287
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Carl
I never addressed Alexanders thoughts at all.
Well that's what this thread is supposed to be discussing.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was addressing other folks discussing timing and placement and hanmi of all things. I addressed my thoughts on the both the difference and the joining of the two in several places.I have answered your question on Ueshiba's model of connection within the body in different ways as well, some in more detail than others just a few posts or a page back. Did you miss them?
Here is a recent one a few posts back.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aiki and awase
Aiki as a concept prior to awase is for building a bujutsu body. Noted by Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo, Tokimune, Tohei, Shirata, And many ICMA masters as well.
The dynamic balance of forces within you creates the immovable body that is placed in a -theoretically- invincible position, which is aided *by* that immovable body in motion. This is accomplished partly through other causal effects; like lack of slack leaving no telegraphing, and neutralization of forces creating movement and cancellation of resistance in an opponent not otherwise capable of being achieved through normal motion and a normal body type... which leads to a more fully realized concept of.... awase.
I am preparing for a weekend trip to Europe, so won't be around too much longer. I think there is enough expressed in the posts to clarify my views.
Dan
Of course I noticed that quote. I actually quoted it myself! It sounds like a good description of kokyu-power. I'm not doubting what you can do and I appreciate your views. I hope it goes well for you in Europe.

Carl
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:29 AM   #288
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Edit:
Oops you posted while I was typing. Lets leave it for discussion then


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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks for taking the time to examine the article and I appreciate the attempt to cross-reference it with a good account of IP/Aiki. I've never trained with Alexander Sensei or his main teacher, but from other teachers associated with him, I get the impression that the "using his own body movement to merge" part is the deployment of a forged aikido body, and that in itself is done according to the principle called awase (aka: musubi). I think the connected training for the deployment of kokyu-power, along with it's tanren is the issue some IP/Aiki practitioner have .
It would help if
1. Those supposedly forging an aikido body could display a body quality that was unusual and dynamically stable, instead of being so easy to take apart by...
2. Those studying tanran to make a bujutsu body like Ueshiba did.

Then there would be no debate would there? Why is there a debate? Very simple answer that no one wants to talk about. The first group can't hold up under testing and prove their own statements. The second group can.

Quote:
If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions about the body you described (that does not require moving because everything is infused with the AIKI). If someone throws a punch at you, do you move? If someone cuts at you with a bladed weapon, do you move? If you do move, how disconnected can your movement be from the body, minds and intent of the attacker(s)?

Regards

Carl
My repeated answer below

Quote:
Aiki and awase
Aiki as a concept prior to awase is for building a bujutsu body. Noted by Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo, Tokimune, Tohei, Shirata, And many ICMA masters as well.
The dynamic balance of forces within you creates the immovable body that is placed in a -theoretically- invincible position, which is aided *by* that immovable body in motion. This is accomplished partly through other causal effects; like lack of slack leaving no telegraphing, and neutralization of forces creating movement and cancellation of resistance in an opponent not otherwise capable of being achieved through normal motion and a normal body type... which leads to a more fully realized concept of.... awase.
I simply don't know how many times it has to be repeated that we are also talking about movement.
I'll try
"We are also talking about movement."
"We are also talking about movement."
"We are also talking about movement."

The continuing refrain is that aiki happens in you BEFORE you make awase. Awase can involve aiki but also can just be "fitting in" like most every other martial arts does. AIki in you first changes the interaction between two people at many levels, and cause them to be more reactive to the person with aiki. This is partly done through the person exhibiting a connected body, and partly done through using it to make aiki happen at every contact point (even before the contact point happens) by using that connected body in such a way that there is a "no force" effect happening every time they touch. No force, applied....even when they land on their ass with what looks and feel like a direct throw. No force...begins within you and is carried with you in movement without your needing to connect to him, that happens after or not at all, and you can be the aggressor, or meet or be defensive. Hence the three degrees of sen.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-24-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:36 AM   #289
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Well that's what this thread is supposed to be discussing.
Of course I noticed that quote. I actually quoted it myself! It sounds like a good description of kokyu-power. I'm not doubting what you can do and I appreciate your views. I hope it goes well for you in Europe.

Carl
It is and it isn't. Kokyu is but one element. It can bring power to a degree if done correctly but will never attain even what Ueshiba was doing.

Dan
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:56 AM   #290
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Well that's what this thread is supposed to be discussing.
Carl
I just don't consider awase to be a principle of "aiki" at all. As I laid out, I think the idea...is a corruption (mistaken understanding) of a deeper teaching. This reinvention was picked up and carried into modern aikido.
Ueshiba and his peer Sagawa, discussed and displayed body training as the means to make aiki. Not waza, not fitting in.

Interestingly enough this idea, that what you attain in body training is carried and has an effect in movement, is stated as a standard in internal training.
"Motion stillness, before stillness in motion."
Done correctly
"When move thing moves-everything moves."

All easy to say, yet takes a lifetime to pursue.
Dan
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #291
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Right, that was Stan's point when he initially wrote that article. Pre-war, students spent about 5-6 years with Osensei. Postwar, he was in and out of hombu. So Stan's arguing that, because that's not enough time to correctly teach all the intricate details of his Aikido, the lesser-known prewar and postwar Hombu students developed in different directions.

Let's look at the Hombu people. How much time did Osensei spend at Hombu? I'm thinking he spent a couple of weeks a year there? So, probably a bit longer than AikIP students spend with Dan each year, right? People are training with Dan, going home with stuff to work on, working on it diligently, and everybody is saying they are making progress, it is opening doors, blowing minds, etc.

Now...given that the Hombu had uchi-deshi who were there to train 60 hours a week, as well as a lot of really dedicated soto deshi, it seems to me that if Ueshiba had a system anything like Dan's, the fact that he was not there very often would not detract from the quality of the Aikido there.

Osensei would roll into town, come onto the mat, and talk about the kojiki. He'd define what he meant in the context of solo training. he'd explain it as a physical process, and display power. Then everyone would do their solo training in their spare time, then next time Osensei came to town he would test everyone.

But he didn't. He didn't transmit this, it is not a part of his teachings.
I think that you're confusing the teaching method wtih the material being taught. Five different people can teach the English language in five different ways - are they teaching different material?

He outlined the method quite clearly to the post-war students - they just didn't get it, and admitted that themselves. When you look back at the material in context things become quite a bit clearer.

In any case, it's not just the amount of time that he was there - but that's another (and equally complex) discussion.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2012, 10:55 AM   #292
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I'm sorry Mark, I don't have any confidence in your ability to tell whether two things are actually the same, or whether you are overexcited by some fractional degree of similarity.
So, you haven't done the research like I have, haven't gotten hands on training with many of the IP/IS crowd, haven't talked to Gleason, haven't trained with other shihan in other organizations who trained w IP/IS people ... How about other people in aikido who have trained either with the founder or been there for his training sessions? And you are saying you lack confidence in my abilities? I'm sure the readers can see what's wrong here.

Mark
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:19 AM   #293
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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks Chris

I think Takemusu Aiki is the intended result of training with the founder's principles, including awase/musubi. To an extent, at this stage I think TA has similarities with other kokyu-tanren methods at least, in that first you're building a body. That's where my interest comes from regarding the IP/Aiki situation.

Regards

Carl
Hey Carl,

Yes, I think Takemusu aiki is what Ueshiba Sensei was doing in his later years. By his training of aiki within himself he could do as he wished with uke whether moving or just standing there. This is what I strive for by conditioning myself...Maybe one day!!! :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS It would seem to me at that level kata/waza/form are not necessary anymore. You just do...

Last edited by akiy : 10-25-2012 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:35 PM   #294
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
He outlined the method quite clearly to the post-war students - they just didn't get it, and admitted that themselves. When you look back at the material in context things become quite a bit clearer.
You mean if you look back on the material in the context of developing internal strength?

If a teacher were to explain his methods for developing internal strength to his students, but did not present these methods within the context of developing internal strength, is it really fair to say he "outlined his method quite clearly?"

That's part of the HIPS narrative as it has evolved on these forums that I have not really been able to swallow. We seem to take as given that:

- Osensei had found methods for generating internal power
- He was fully aware that they were methods for generating internal power
- He earnestly attempted to transmit them to his students
- His students were completely ignorant of the preceding three items

I just cannot see how these add up. Even if all the Tokyo students were totally incompetent, and actually didn't think much of the man, I would expect to see quite a bit of empty, devitalized internal power drills in Aikido, more than just rowing and shaking your fists. Because they would all be like "The old man wanted us to do this, so we'll do it."

I am unsure if this points to internal power practice as being in any way similar to what Osensei was doing. if it really helped you be more like Osensei, for one I would think it would make you more of a shaman. That would change your mind as well. You'd develop a mind that was less critical, more open to seeing patterns in the chaos, less able to discern the difference between your own beliefs and objective reality....

Wait.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:46 PM   #295
chillzATL
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

This thread has crossed into pointless territory now.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:48 PM   #296
Chris Li
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You mean if you look back on the material in the context of developing internal strength?

If a teacher were to explain his methods for developing internal strength to his students, but did not present these methods within the context of developing internal strength, is it really fair to say he "outlined his method quite clearly?"

That's part of the HIPS narrative as it has evolved on these forums that I have not really been able to swallow. We seem to take as given that:

- Osensei had found methods for generating internal power
- He was fully aware that they were methods for generating internal power
- He earnestly attempted to transmit them to his students
- His students were completely ignorant of the preceding three items

I just cannot see how these add up. Even if all the Tokyo students were totally incompetent, and actually didn't think much of the man, I would expect to see quite a bit of empty, devitalized internal power drills in Aikido, more than just rowing and shaking your fists. Because they would all be like "The old man wanted us to do this, so we'll do it."

I am unsure if this points to internal power practice as being in any way similar to what Osensei was doing. if it really helped you be more like Osensei, for one I would think it would make you more of a shaman. That would change your mind as well. You'd develop a mind that was less critical, more open to seeing patterns in the chaos, less able to discern the difference between your own beliefs and objective reality....

Wait.
There are specific, devitalized internal power drills - "rowing" is one of them. In any case, I still think that you're getting too caught up in the specific drills.

And yes, whether or not it was clear or not is an interesting discussion - but if you look through the original Japanese it's definitely there.

As I said, before, the question of why and how the transmission broke down involves a lot of factors, and is really merits a separate discussion.

Anyway, I'm off to Korea.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2012, 09:25 PM   #297
HL1978
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You mean if you look back on the material in the context of developing internal strength?

If a teacher were to explain his methods for developing internal strength to his students, but did not present these methods within the context of developing internal strength, is it really fair to say he "outlined his method quite clearly?"

That's part of the HIPS narrative as it has evolved on these forums that I have not really been able to swallow. We seem to take as given that:

- Osensei had found methods for generating internal power
- He was fully aware that they were methods for generating internal power
- He earnestly attempted to transmit them to his students
- His students were completely ignorant of the preceding three items
You can have weekly access to someone with IS and still not pick it up for a variety of reasons, from dense students, not putting in the solo time, or a poor teaching model. They might pick up some aspects, but not the whole deal (developing "muscle jin"?). There's also the whole hidden in plain sight thing too. I'm sure others can chime on this since you fundamentally have to rework how you move which requires you to work on this all the time rather than just in the dojo.

Quote:
I just cannot see how these add up. Even if all the Tokyo students were totally incompetent, and actually didn't think much of the man, I would expect to see quite a bit of empty, devitalized internal power drills in Aikido, more than just rowing and shaking your fists. Because they would all be like "The old man wanted us to do this, so we'll do it."
Not all exercises have to be "strange" looking to be "IS" development exercises though clearly some that don't appear to be immediately applicable to waza are... Some of the exercises are pretty clear that they should be preformed an open and close motion rather than just the arms. Others you want to do by bending from the hip not the waist. Others, aren't warming up the shoulders, but you want to do by maintaining a range of motion by not disconnecting the shoulder. Others you want to commit your weight down and not forwards. Others you want to stay under yourself throughout the range of motion. (Clearly you want to combine all the above in general) Some of the self slaps (where you slap yourself all over the upper and lower body) look like fascia/suit warmups. Akuzawa Sensei shows in his seminars how you do breakfalls/rolls etc while maintaining connection too. You have to know what to look for....

I'm not suggesting that you look to this video for proper movement, but I think more than a few people here could probably figure out how you are supposed to by doing these warmup movements as well as some of the basic warmup stretches and range of motion movements.

I'm not going to point out how one should be doing various warmups as its silly without the requisite experience.

Last edited by HL1978 : 10-24-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:44 AM   #298
phitruong
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

methink the argument of the aiki that IP/IS folks is really Ueshiba (sr) aiki and the other side of the argument that's not. it's really a black box kind of argument.

you have a black box of electronics circuitry, i.e. you don't have any idea what in it. you can feed it various inputs: dc, ac, different wave frequency, and so on. for every input, you have some output in various forms. so you try to build another black box that can do the same at the original black box, i.e. same input generates same output. sort of reverse engineering the thing. so you said that your black box is the same as the original. but this isn't the truth. the truth is your black box takes the same input and produces the same output as the other black box. that's the fact, i.e. truth. but unless you can crack the original black box open, compare component for component, circuit layout for circuit layout, manufacture for manufacture, you can't claim that your black box is the same as the original black box.

*ok, i am getting off my black box now and hopefully there might be the last donut hidden in it*

carry on with the various arguments!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:30 AM   #299
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Dan, thanks for your continued responses.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It is and it isn't. Kokyu is but one element. It can bring power to a degree if done correctly but will never attain even what Ueshiba was doing.

Dan
I've asked you about your view on kokyu-ryoku before and thought it might be worth re-posting here:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Dan

I got the impression that kokyu-ryoku didn't just refer to "breath power". One translation I saw was "abdominal breath power". In any case, do you think "kokyu" (not just breath) could be seen as IP while "connection" and the associated application of kokyu could be called "Aiki"?

Carl
Carl
1. Abdominal breath power
Is the pressurized breath that I referred to.
2. Connection as kokyu
Connection has to be trained-in you- prior to it having any appreciable effect on anyone outside of you.

3. To answer your other question
Breath training is part of Internal strength. Connection is part of Aiki
The qualities that you are training to connect tissue crosses over in everything. It gets much more sophisticated. In any event, there is a reason that aiki takes place in you first.
One other thing...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hence the three degrees of sen.
Is this referring to go no sen, sen no sen and sensen no sen? I mentioned this earlier as one of many possible concepts of awase. This isn't the concept of awase I think was meant in the OP. It certainly isn't Osensei's.

Quote:
O Sensei: In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in Aikido. The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu; since you win over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven, you possess absolute strength.

B: Does that mean o no sen? (a.k.a.: go no sen)

O Sensei: Absolutely not. It is not a question of either sensen no sen or sen no sen. If I were to try to verbalize it I would say that you control your opponent without trying to control him. That is, the state of continuous victory. There isn't any question of winning over or losing to an opponent. In this sense, there is no opponent in Aikido. Even if you have an opponent, he becomes a part of you, a partner you control only.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:47 AM   #300
DH
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Dan, thanks for your continued responses.

Is this referring to go no sen, sen no sen and sensen no sen? I mentioned this earlier as one of many possible concepts of awase. This isn't the concept of awase I think was meant in the OP. It certainly isn't Osensei's.
From my phone at 36,000'
1. I was describing how these are used in martial application. Hence the three sen. O'sensei's ...use...of sen is in a self defense mode similar to his teacher and peers in DR. It doesn't have to be, it's a choice in the DR lineage.

2. Ueshiba's model is defensive but more importantly...here we have him...yet again...agreeing with me that it is in managing oneself, moving oneself that creates aiki and compels the opponent. and controls him. Thus, there is theoretically..."no enemy" Hence his comment that ...he controls the enemy, without trying to control him"....by changing himself. It is my view that it was this point where the students parted ways with him. They...resorted to external movement only...thus missing the key aspects of his aiki.
Again he embodied my saying
Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me..
Its all so simple.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-25-2012 at 09:58 AM.
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