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Old 09-24-2012, 06:30 PM   #51
Chris Li
 
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.
The numbers game is tricky, because it keeps on changing.

At one time, most of the Aikido world believed that Morihei Ueshiba created all the techniques himself - until Stan Pranin showed differently.

Japanese Aikido shihan told people straight out that Daito-ryu was a dead art - but now we know that wasn't true.

Maybe we should take a vote.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-24-2012, 07:37 PM   #52
Marc Abrams
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Maybe it's just me..... I kind of find it ludicrous that we are entertaining people who are trying to define a very hard to define, Japanese term who DO NOT speak Japanese. I do not speak Japanese, nor pretend to have some deep understanding of words and terms that I do not know the history, context, etc. behind the words or terms. I may put forth my limited understanding with the caveat of my lack of understanding of the language and I will then defer to those who are in a better position to understand the words and terms....

Correct me if I am wrong, but Chris Li was NOT a fan of Dan Harden's in the beginning. Chris Li is someone who I think is a professional interpreter. He not only interprets Japanese into English (and the other way around), is an accomplished Aikidoka, and has researched the history and context behind the words and terms that we are attempting to portray that we think that we know. It is my understanding that Chris explored O'Sensei's original writings because he wanted to see if Dan was full of B.S. or not.

We can continue to display our arrogance wrapped in ignorance, or we can step back and acknowledge the limitations of our assumed knowledge and seek out people who may be better informed than us. This discussion has NOTHING to do with Dan Harden. This discussion evolved/devolved into a discussion of what "Aiki" means (one of too many threads). It is beyond absurd that we have people who insist that they know what this term means in absence of a deep understanding of the language and a deep understanding of the history and context of the term.

For my 2 cents, I currently defer to Chris Li, in absence of a more educated opinion.....

Marc Abrams

ps- Great Post Hunter!!!!
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:59 PM   #53
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but Chris Li was NOT a fan of Dan Harden's in the beginning.
Dan came onto the old Aikido-L mailing list years (10, 15?) and immediately started causing trouble.

We went back and forth over the years (with some interesting consequences), but always stayed more or less friendly, even though I thought that he was mostly full of it.

Eventually, Dan learned to spell a little better and I started to get some idea what he was talking about after hooking up with some folks who had experience with Sagawa Dojo and the Kodokai in Japan.

A while later I moved back to Hawaii for the second time, and a friend and I ended up getting Dan to come out to Hawaii (didn't take much coaxing).

After screwing the top of my head back on I started looking back more at what Ueshiba wrote - which I had read before, but was much more interesting, and actually understandable, when considered in the correct context.

That's the quick version.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:09 PM   #54
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post

Eventually, Dan learned to spell a little better........

Best,

Chris
not true! he just learned how to use a spell checker

Greg
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:13 PM   #55
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Chris Western wrote: View Post
Hello All,

Here we go around the mullberry bush, the mullberry bush...or shoud I say ring around the rosy, a pocket fill of poseys...!!! I can't get enough of this. At times it's hard to understand!!! Many have said it before(I'm along for the train wreck)!!!

TakeCareEnjoy,

CW

PS TRAINHARDTRAINSMART
I don't think anyone will be convinced through argument alone, as it has gone around and around for years. It is worth saying though, that once you have a little bit of experience with what the IS guys talk about (even if you can't do it yourself), the many rather abstract, flowery and/or esoteric phrases one hears in martial arts suddenly have life breathed into them and may in some ways seem obvious in hindsight.

-------

My previous post was really intended to be in response to post 32's 3rd paragraph. None the less, Ark's comments about shin tai gi and tai gi shin, probably should go off in their own thread, but are pertinent to any sort of spiritual discussion or the more conventional connotations of "aiki" as understood by most martial artists.
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:33 AM   #56
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Concepts that have proven useful in ordering things easily achieve such authority over us that we forget their earthly origins and accept them as unalterable givens.
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:12 AM   #57
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post

Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do.
The same "Aikido world" whose top teachers said they "did not know what O Sensei was talking about" (and went on to spread his art anyway), cannot do what O Sensei did, and who got told by O Sensei they were not doing his aikido and did not understand core principles like in-yo. Here the status quo doesn't exactly provide a very convincing argument of understanding aiki as the founder did (we keep bowing to a picture of the founder so I assume it is the aiki he did we're interested in, not some number of made-up definitions of aiki).
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:01 PM   #58
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Hi Chris

Source material
All due respect, this isn't my material-nor my case and I have never said it was. In fact I think the first step in holding people back is to reduce it to individuals. Sadly, it is what the martial arts community has done for generations.

This material has spanned cultures and generations and I believe it is the source material for many individual "epiphanies." We have Chinese, quoting India and Japan quoting the Chinese material; all using the same terminology. We have Ueshiba being asked to explain himself. "Tell us what aiki is" And here we now see him quoting material -ages old.
Ueshiba flatly stating that "Heaven/earth/ man releases the mountain echo." You must stand with six direction awareness before during and after each technique.

Then we have the founder of shinto ryu coming out of esoteric studies at the Katori shrine in 1451 and stating that once he understood heaven/earth/man and six direction theory....his ken was unstoppable!
That is a 500 year span of two great martial artists quoting the same source material-not as strictly concept-but as the same use of terminology as other great budo men in China. Secondly, assigning the concept taught...as martial strength or power.

Questions worth consideration
When I read your argument, Chris for Harden Aiki-being different from the majority of those in aikido- one has to ask oneself:
Shouldn't your argument for two different types of IP or aiki be supported by the founders words...and his abilities-and then displayed in those making such claims?
  • Shouldn't the majority claiming Ueshiba's aiki- display the attributes of power of the arts founder they claim to understand, and be able to explain what he said? How come they didn't know where his words came from -so they thought it was his individual genius and personal creation?
  • Shouldn't the majority making the argument that they understand what Ueshiba's aiki is, display unusual power, and not feel like average people? Their claims of understanding a founder who did display unusual power should mean they have unusual power, right?
  • If they were right...couldn't they just step on a mat and show it around the world-against people who doubted them?
  • What does it mean when someone shows up pointing to the sources Ueshiba was pointing to, can explain them, do them...and displays unusual power that the arts teachers cannot stop, cannot do and cannot explain?

1. How does that then qualify their opinion on the words and work of the founder________________?

This work, this treasure of the Asian arts was not Ueshiba's in the first place-it was given to him as well. It never was an individual epiphany. THis work has produced budo people with unusual power for eons, and it will continue to do so today if we...like those before us...do the work.
We have a chance to embrace the legacy of the real power in budo with men who are teaching how to do it.

We have to get off of individuals and onto the real knowledge and work. Where do we go?
Here is a telling point:
Every...single...one... of those claiming to understand these things? They should display unusual power...
Maybe that is a good place to begin.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-25-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:30 PM   #59
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Dan came onto the old Aikido-L mailing list years (10, 15?) and immediately started causing trouble.
And....many friends.

Quote:
We went back and forth over the years (with some interesting consequences), but always stayed more or less friendly, even though I thought that he was mostly full of it.
I started to get some idea what he was talking about after hooking up with some folks who had experience with Sagawa Dojo and the Kodokai in Japan.
Again pointing to the fact that.... this is NOT my material...or any individuals for that matter.

Quote:
A while later I moved back to Hawaii for the second time, and a friend and I ended up getting Dan to come out to Hawaii (didn't take much coaxing).
After screwing the top of my head back on.... I started looking back more at what Ueshiba wrote - which I had read before, but was much more interesting, and actually understandable, when considered in the correct context.
Best,

Chris
I think most people didn't get the fact that your drive to re-read Ueshiba came only AFTER your encounter with the realities of this work which you previously wrote off as me being full of it!!
It's certainly been fun seeing you awaken as a new source,
Dan
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:35 PM   #60
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Back on topic
Unlike the sumo video; here is a guy who actually does have IS... unusual power!
If you watch he exhibits little movement to control or make power, and no...no cooperation is needed.
Yes I have felt him.
Dan
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #61
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Nice to see some visual at last. Mmmm. So that's what you call unusual power. Seen much similar.

Taiji, bagua etc. As I thought.

Peace.G.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:34 PM   #62
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Hi Graham
It might look the same but it is not
you need to experience this level sometmes
more then once to understand.

stan
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:15 PM   #63
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Back on topic
Unlike the sumo video; here is a guy who actually does have IS... unusual power!
If you watch he exhibits little movement to control or make power, and no...no cooperation is needed.
Yes I have felt him.
Dan
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.

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Old 09-25-2012, 11:54 PM   #64
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.
Chris,

Yes, yes, yes!!! There is still hope for the MA's. I applaud the fact that you are willing to go and demonstrate what you mean. I respect that. That's more than others are willing to do... You have just inspired me to get off my butt(and Internet)and train. Yes, yes, yes!!! :0)

All the Best,
ChrisW
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:51 AM   #65
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.
funny, i was reading a post from "2007" last night on www.shengwu.com?, in which you said you'd meet up with him when he came to the area then
cant wait to hear about it
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:42 AM   #66
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

Dan is the guy who's out there promoting this idea, he gave it to the people you are saying are it's promoters, like you Mark. The other people help Dan promote this idea.
Chris,

That might apply if all of the people involved had no common sense, low IQs, and couldn't tell their rear from a hole in the ground. However, if anyone takes a look at the people involved, anyone would find that this is most definitely not the case. In fact, it's just the opposite. The people involved are very intelligent and very experienced in the martial arts world. Just look up Bill Gleason's training history. To say that these people are only there to promote Dan is to, pretty much, tell them all that they don't have the intelligence to think on their own. It is a very safe bet that most of the people who went to train with any of the IP exponents, did so to discount what was being said. Some to test. So, how about we drop this "promoter" idea, this "salesman" thing, this "individual" thing and start focusing on aiki.

(Just as an aside about the individual, promoter, thing being wrong ... This isn't about a singular person. There were three people out and about at one time. There was one more who wasn't as well known. There was one who became more popular after the Aiki Expos. There was one who was relatively unknown until a few years ago. There were two who were known but had trouble explaining. Etc, etc, etc.)

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's simpler to call Dan's (and those who support Dan) variation of Aiki something different then what most people in the Aikido world calls Aiki. Because it is different...
It is different than Modern Aikido, yes. It is Ueshiba's aiki. It is what made Ueshiba martially famous. It is what is missing in most Modern Aikido.

Now, for everyone ... don't take that to mean that Modern Aikido's vision of "aiki" is worthless. I know quite a few people who have become better people from it. In reality, Kisshomaru did a grand thing when he took his father's singular spiritual ideology and transformed it into something the world could share. That, IMO, was something Kisshomaru did which surpassed his father. Personally, I think his father approved of what he had done in this area. What Kisshomaru did has changed many people's lives for the better. I think most Modern Aikido dojos should also have a picture of Kisshomaru on the shomen. I'm sure he had tough decisions to make regarding Tokyo hombu because there were other major changes made, as well. Ueshiba's aiki was removed, which has contributed to the downgrade of aikido being martially outstanding as all the aikido greats had proven.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:08 AM   #67
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

I think people are getting hung up on the sumo video as if someone's saying that's an excellent use of internal strength. I don't know anyone that's saying that - but I will say it's interesting, beyond bracing how the smaller sumo dude is able to get heavy and change weight without a lot of movement (though not unusual in grapplers of a high level, either, master class bjj guys on the ground can feel like there's nothing there, or like they are as immovable as a mountain -- there's also some clips of a more recent judo guy showing the same kinds of things from judo grips).

Obviously LCD is showing a much higher level of skill (against a much less resisting opponent, I might add - which only is to say there's a difference in how these things look against progressive levels of resistance, sparring, fighting, etc. for example, look at Chen Bing's demo, still demo, against the muscley grappler in Florida). If I had to break it down in more detail, I'd say the sumo guy has a leg up on the guys he's working against in that he's better able to manipulate the solidity of ground, weight of gravity aspects (beyond just having good structure) that are really entry level things to IS.

LCD is obviously a different animal, he's demonstrating much more sophisticated management of ground/gravity, plus better whole body connection and the ability to issue power through that connected body as driven by the middle (and some other things as well).

I find it a bit annoying how ready everyone is to go to one extreme of "Yeah, I fully understand that, we do that, too" or to the other end of "Yeah, I totally get it and that is nothing at all like what I'm doing". I think we'd be better serviced if there was a bit more education and consensus around what some of the entry-points are into the spectrum of Internal Strength skills are and how different levels of conditioning, skill and sophistication play into training, demonstrations, competitions and combat -- without the conversation denigrating quickly into "I know more because I'm in the club" or "I know more IS because I can beat you up" or "My teacher said" or .... <insert trite-ism here>.

/OffSoapbox

For the record, Dan, you already know I agree with you that this stuff is different.

Chris, I think people have been telling you to for years to go feel somebody that is acknowledged as having some skill. So, yeah, I encourage you again to go do so.

Last edited by Budd : 09-26-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:14 AM   #68
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.
Hi Chris
Like I Said to Graham looks the same but
You have not felt anybody
on his level.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:35 AM   #69
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

I have a few questions I'd like to put out there, and I'm sincerely interested in hearing anyone's answers as the questions arise whenever this discussion about "what is aiki" comes around.

Here is my premise: One of the things about O Sensei that his students seemed to find remarkable was his ability to "disappear" from where they thought he was and "reappear" suddenly, often right beside them, as when surrounded by a group of armed or unarmed attackers.

1. Are these accounts creditable? They seem to me to be, as reflected in films I've seen.

2. Is it appropriate to consider this an aspect of "aiki" in your view?
A. If not, is it fair to talk about it as a "higher level" skill at least as he manifested it?
And
B. If the answer to that second question is "yes," then how did he train it and why did he seem to regard it as a significant element of his budo?
3. Is this kind of ability connected, in your view, to internal training -- that is, is this something that internal training either helps to impart or otherwise enhances?

Disclaimer: I'm quite interested in the whole IP/IS paradigm, although I'm still working at what has been referred to as "baseline skills." I'm not trying to score points or get into a debate with people who are more skilled or knowledgeable. Still, I keep wondering whether this aspect of training explains everything that I, with my limited experience, find remarkable about Ueshiba's budo.

David Henderson
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:03 AM   #70
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.
GT
This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.
I am unaware of you learning IS in your studies of ICMA. I don't want to get into teachers and what they can and cannot do.
What is your exposure to several other CHINESE ICMA Master class teachers....not related to your teacher?
Lets just say that some teachers...Master level teachers from China... bounced themselves off of me when trying the things in the video I posted. Now...since that happened in public in an open room at his own seminar-and this after separating me from his lineage holding student...telling him that "I was too much for him"... How then do we think that any of this Master Class Chinese teacher's own students...ended up with IS? How would that happen?

Martial arts are filled with many excellent technicians who would not know internal power if it fell on them. THAT....is why I test for IS outside of waza or fighting ability. For example- Jujutsu both traditional and modern has some excellent players; There are some MA experts out teaching internal power, who really have no business doing so. They are very, very good at what they do and that is enough to vet them for anything they wish to market themselves as to almost everyone who has no real exposure to what IS really is.
Budd was spot on with talking about good grapplers doing some things close to internal movement. And high level jujutsu -including really good Greco Roman and BJJ can be very ghosty and fluid. For most Ma'ers when they meet and feel these guys and if they watch them win a fight...it vets...all of their rhetoric about anything they want to say.

And yet....
I continue to meet men who spent 8-15 years in China training under Masters-who are good jujutsu guys...and they have no IS.
I continue to meet men who spent 5-35 years in Japan-who are good jujutsu and weapons guys with no IS.
How do I know? Outside of their waza, they have no unusual power of any kind. They feel like any other Tom, Dick, or Harry.
Same with the Sumo video in the OP. There are "tells" that show he is not connected fully. The same can be said for Menkyo' in JMA and SHihan in various arts.
I have gotten into trouble for pointing it out, only to find out upon feel that I was spot on, or when others felt them after feeling people who really were connected THEY reported that our analysis was true.

Personally, I think everyone would have to go feel a series of ICMA master class teachers who are known to have IS before they should seriously consider that they know what it even feels like, much less do.
That leaves me with the fact that you continue to bring up your mimicing or copying what you see on film and thinking you are duplicating it. We have seen it before. LCD is not Doing "a thing" it is a quality of movement. and if you had it? You would be famous. It really that simple. It is inescapable and obvious. anyone who touched you would want to be a student as you would feel different.
I think for most people that is one area in discussing IS like this on these threads. There is no escape from one obvious fact.
If everyone has IS and it is the aiki you describe...why do they feel normal and can be tossed around?
How then do you explain those who feel different and cannot be tossed around?
Usually it is explained through their ability with "Waza."
Yet all of the famous guys who were unusual said it had nothing to do with waza
When someone tells me they can do these things I simply ask
Why are you not famous?

I agree on Ueshiba's comments. However, his body displayed a power that impressed people. All of the interviews and stories we fawn over....over and over again, talk of men NOT being impressed by his waza...but of touching and feeling his body movement.
Again...and to repeat, just as I said "I test bodies and not letting someone hide behind jujutsu"....the Majority of the interviews we see focus on people commenting on Ueshiba's "unusual power" His internal strength...not his jujutsu.
Didn't he say...Aiki had nothing to do with waza.
Didn't he quote Chinese IP methods?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-26-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:22 AM   #71
DH
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

EDIT:
Just to note, I am only addressing this idea that all movement and all arts contain IS when do not. Not that they have to either. They are fine on their own with no requirement to have IS at all....except when people say they do and they provably do not!
Everyone should care about honest evaluation of something we invest so much time in.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-26-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:49 AM   #72
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Dan, I would love to come to your next California seminar and "feel". Could I come?

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Old 09-26-2012, 01:50 PM   #73
DH
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Hi Chris
Meeting me is not the point.
I....am not any of my points.
With your history here and on Shen Wu, I would rather you went to see Sam Chin or Ark or some of the ICMA who are vetted as having power. The work is the point, not any individual.
BTW, I really appreciated the friendly exchange.
Dan
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:52 PM   #74
David Orange
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Moving in an "Aiki way" as you mention begins with no movement at all. In fact it is the hardest part. Next is moving solo...still very difficult. The last is connecting to someone. By then it should be almost automatic. Oddly enough most of the greats were all known for following that model.
Right. I've been trying to phrase that. And you can also see that the big teachers explain the same idea in the opposite directions: as you get better, the big movements become smaller and smaller until you're almost not moving. It's not an equivalent statement, though. Instead of approaching the infinitely small through large outer direction and movement, it has to be better to begin with inner direction and no outward movement.

A big shift began for me when I studied Feldenkrais and he (his Method and writings) directed my attention toward smaller and smaller movements until I noticed a place between thought and movement where everything begins.

You have to find that first in yourself before you can start to apply it to others and you have to learn to keep it all inside rather than sending out toward, if not to someone else.

So it has to begin at non-moving internal work.

So then the specifics of the non-moving internal work...

What are they and what are the effects?

They are the six-directional tuning of the nervous system.

The effect is to make the practitioner very hard to move, very hard to prevent from moving, very difficult to let go of, once grabbed.

With these skills, the outer forms of aikido can be employed easily, though this stage should really be takemusu aiki, from which techniques are generated spontaneously according to the situation.

It's in the body of the practitioner--not in the forms.

Thanks for the help.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 09-26-2012, 02:08 PM   #75
David Orange
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
not true! he just learned how to use a spell checker

Greg
No easy feat, even on aikiweb. Every time I type aiki, it gets turned into wiki!

Before correcting the spell-checker:

Every time I type wiki, it gets turned into wiki!

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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