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Old 08-14-2012, 08:03 PM   #51
DH
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

State a history that is untrue
Support it with rhetoric
Misstate dates and facts
Invent thing's out of whole cloth
Mistranslate known sayings
Come back later as if it never happened and use the correct terminology of those who corrected you.......
With no acknowledgment of preceding events.
Its called dialogue on the internet.
Dan
 
Old 08-14-2012, 08:05 PM   #52
JW
 
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Hi all, good to see aikiweb is keeping lively! Does anyone know what the "Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido Competition" was/is?

It was created by Tohei (see below). I got the impression that it was NOT the "taigi" competition (where techniques are shown), but rather more of a "competitive ki testing" event. Is that true? At any rate, as you can see from the quote, Tohei did indeed think that competition could motivate improvement. Why would someone who knows the downside of competitions (as shown in the quote) want to create such an event? My bet is he recognized that one's development would always be limited if training was entirely restricted to cooperative training.

In other words, to help make his students stronger and improve their mind-body coordination, Tohei thought it would be good to do things involving competition.

Quote:
Aikido prohibits matches because matches are concerned with the issue of winning or losing. There would be no problem if matches were not about victory and defeat, but rather about how much we can unify the mind that we have been given by heaven and earth to discover our fullest potential as human beings. With this in mind I established what we call the Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido Competition, an event not for displays of circus-like techniques or other curiosities, but rather an opportunity to test this mind-body unification that anyone has the potential to attain. This event is not limited to Ki Society members; anyone can participate. But those unable to unify their mind and body won’t get very far in the competition
source:
http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...oichi-tohei-2/
 
Old 08-15-2012, 04:33 AM   #53
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Perhaps we should just call this site DanWeb.
Dear Mary, even if I don't know you and your aikidō in person I appreciate very much your thoughts, insights, ideas about aikidō! When reading your statements I understand that you have gone a long way, that you have lived aikidō for a long time and with great intensity. You speaking seriously and humble makes me listening. Although what you think aikidō to be and how you think aikidō to work often sounds completely strange in my ears.

The above statement makes me just sad.

I sometimes tried to point out, that in my aikidō context the views of Dan are quite more "normal" than yours are. And I sometimes described here how happy I was to finally find a forum where people discuss on such a high level what I / we try to learn.
Having people like Chris who gives translations of Ueshibas words which reflect more his (Ueshibas) thinking than those of the translators before who did not understand what they tried to translate. Or people like Dan who are able to make this words alive, workable.
So aikiweb became an important place to me, long before I met Dan in person. Simply because what was discussed here matched perfectly the practice of aikidō that is common in my surrounding. But on a level of quality that is seldom found.

So I would beg you to be aware that this is not about a single person with some entourage conquering a website and force through his personal view. But about someone who's work is part of the work and practice of a very large part of the aikidō community. In your eyes it may be a suspect approach to aikidō. But in the eyes of a whole lot of practioners it is what they are looking and aiming for in their practice.

So as long as this is called "AikiWeb", it should be a good place for people who work on aiki to share their knowledge.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 08-15-2012 at 04:45 AM.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:11 AM   #54
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not true
Only in Bud can you suck at teaching and get away with it. If you claim to teach swimming...and your students drown in a pool...you suck at teaching.
Internals and Aili are a great model. A singularly great model. Demonstrably great model.
We need to step up and admit...we suck...so we can fix it, and not claim the model is flawed.

Mary brought up testing. Fine by me.
We can be tested for martial ability
We can be tested for Ki/aiki under pressure
The real problem is that people.... can.....be tested. and THAT is what is pissing people off. They fail over and over, time and time again and they are mad to be thirty years in and it is obvious.
As one ICMA grandmaster said:
"You cannot pretent dantian, you will be found out!"

The "real true martial artist" you mentioned? They don't mind failing, they see it as an opportuniy for growth!
I think you are deliberately misunderstanding this. You know we have different criteria and motives for testing. You are using this as platform to market yourself. Which is fine by me. It seems like a really good way to do seminars. (no sarcasm intended)

I don't know how you appeal to so many Aikido people when you disparage their art...maybe you are just speaking what they really fear in their own minds.

Carston...don't be sad...it is all good. By the way, do you wear a Hakama?

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 08-15-2012 at 10:12 AM. Reason: spacing

 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:13 AM   #55
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Mary, just a minor request - when you reference Maruyama sensei, could you please also state that it is Shuji Maruyama of the Kokikai you are talking about and not Koretoshi Maruyama, who was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society ( one of my first Aikido teachers) granted, both were students of Ueshiba and Tohei, but two very different people that have taken different paths since their severed connection to Tohei.

Thank you

Greg
Hi greg: Just a minor answer, NO. If people really care in the least they can look it up.

 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:24 AM   #56
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I think you are deliberately misunderstanding this. You know we have different criteria and motives for testing. You are using this as platform to market yourself. Which is fine by me. It seems like a really good way to do seminars. (no sarcasm intended)

I don't know how you appeal to so many Aikido people when you disparage their art...maybe you are just speaking what they really fear in their own minds.

Carston...don't be sad...it is all good. By the way, do you wear a Hakama?
Does it make any difference what somebody's wearing?

Anyway, Dan doesn't disparage the art - he does disparage many of the assertions made by folks practicing that art. So do I - and most Aikido instructors that I know.

He's more upfront about it than most, though...

If you meet him in person he'll show you exactly what he's talking about, technically, very clearly - and very convincingly. If you can show him something as good or better - he'll love it.

I'm not sure why the marketing stuff keeps coming up. Teaching isn't his day job and he doesn't make any real money at it - if he's lucky he breaks even or little bit better just to come out and play with us every four months.

We have a good time though.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:28 AM   #57
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Case in point your thread wanted to talk about making people stronger. Okay.
Running around in circles chasing someone's hand while people twirl with their own arms dangling as if they are scared to death to use them lest they "muscle up" is more akin to what I see from the people who talk about ki.
In a discussion of ki (which was known to be powerful) where does the above make sense?
Power how?
How much?
Against what?
When does the pressure increase?
Why?
Against who?
Against what?
No need to talk about you or me is there?

Dan
FWIW, when I asked the question of what people do as ki testing, I meant it as an all inclusive title for any internal paired exercise, not just the ki society things. For simplicity sake, it's all ki testing, isn't it? It just makes it easier to discuss on an aikido forum, not that it really matters...

If you wanted people to answer the above questions or if you had something constructive to say on the importance of pressure testing in "ki testing", why didn't you make that post? While I feel that's kind of what you were shooting for, that's really not the post you made. When you go into these diatribes about fighting, you almost always get threads that turn to dross.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:35 AM   #58
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Thank you Carsten
I don't think anyyone who has stood in a room with me has heard me claim this is my work. Instead I make a very strong argument for a pedogogy from India to China to Japan. It is the quality and consistency of this work, that has produced a never ending stream of "giants" who got it. And I don't consider myself..... a giant.

Sadly, the other "constent" are those in the martial arts who are convinced they get it and don't. They are just going through the motions doing waza thingies and kidding themselves that they are "soft." It can't be helped. The truth has never made a cross section of people either comfortable or happy.In the martial arts it is worse as the vast majority of people in the martial arts really have no idea about the higher level work.
Dan
 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:39 AM   #59
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
FWIW, when I asked the question of what people do as ki testing, I meant it as an all inclusive title for any internal paired exercise, not just the ki society things. For simplicity sake, it's all ki testing, isn't it? It just makes it easier to discuss on an aikido forum, not that it really matters...

If you wanted people to answer the above questions or if you had something constructive to say on the importance of pressure testing in "ki testing", why didn't you make that post? While I feel that's kind of what you were shooting for, that's really not the post you made. When you go into these diatribes about fighting, you almost always get threads that turn to dross.
Jason
That was directed at Mary and Graham. Those questions are aimed at their assertions. It's very simple really. Mary started a thread about getting strong with an uke/nage model.
Where
When
How
with whom
At what levels
No one need talk about fighting. In fact I said IT DID NOT NEED TO BE FIGHTING.
No one need talk about me.
You guys.....make it about fighting and about me.

Mary, continues to violate the rules and talk about the people behind the posts. Whatever....
I asked simply questions on a generic theme about ki.
Dan
 
Old 08-15-2012, 10:57 AM   #60
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

So here I am reading self admitted digs at me, and now this...that I am disingenuous and only marketing myself. Er...thanks!

Why can't we talk about the subject and we share views? Simple.

Individualizing this work-while it makes no sense whatsoever-allows people to shoot and disparage the messenger. Much like Mary does continuously.

Having to admit it is a body of work spanning cultures and eras leaves Budo teachers (in this case Aikido teachers) to answer very...very..damning questions.
Why the hell don't you know about this
Why can't you do it?
Why were you incapable of correctly translating phrases that were well known and established.

So we have professors who are inept at their own field of study. Is this news? It's a twice told tale.

Dan
 
Old 08-15-2012, 11:12 AM   #61
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

All I have to say is that last week a newer student came to one of my classes. Big guy, very strong, very stable. Not a lot of experience and of skeptical nature. He grabbed on during one of my ki tests I was working on for the class and I could feel myself tighten up and react (poorly). I smiled, thanked him, corrected myself, and got on with it. That sort of honesty in attack is hard to find. And a god-send for me. Students quickly fall in to the trap of "taking ukemi" even with ki tests. It becomes part of the collusion, part of the game, and even when you try hard to avoid it, well, it can still creep back in. I am thankful as hell that our late founder of the style I study felt the Tohei Ki tests were indispensable and something to be done regularly. And that we were trained to push each other right up to failure and sometimes even past it. How else do you find the limits? How else do you find what you can improve? And my teachers always expected us to work on them, to grow them, to try new things, to explore. But the starting point was always the same. Shoshin ni kaeru. Return to the basics.

FWIW I think that what guys like Dan are teaching *are* the basics. The very foundation. The basics of the most basic. That doesn't make it easy. That doesn't make it simple to explain. But it is profound when faced with it directly. And undeniably powerful. And soft. And everything in between.

It doesn't mean I can do it well. Too much work left to do still. But... What a wonderful way of expanding the horizon in front of you.

Yeah, I love the ki tests. And while I get what the OP is saying, I'm not sure competitive is the right word anyway. Obviously we're trying to learn, not just destroy our students. Not "show up" the students or "show off" for the students. But in another way I do think of competition. With myself. Getting better. Sometimes it's also about pushing the student. Or maybe giving the student a reality check. So sometimes you do shut them down. Sometimes you push them past failure. It's not always going to be warm fuzzies if you are really trying to help people improve. For some, sure, they're motivated enough internally to get where they need to go. Others, not so much.

Shrug. Tis the reason I didn't post in this thread until now. It's a warm sentiment and a lovely thought, but not so much practical or workable for many. No, of course it's not about competition in some sense of the word. But it often needs a lot more "umph" and slapping around than it currently tends to receive, especially if we're going to continue to claim that this is a martial art with some degree of application.

So I shrug again. Carry on and have a lovely day...

 
Old 08-15-2012, 11:35 AM   #62
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Jason
That was directed at Mary and Graham. Those questions are aimed at their assertions. It's very simple really. Mary started a thread about getting strong with an uke/nage model.
Where
When
How
with whom
At what levels
No one need talk about fighting. In fact I said IT DID NOT NEED TO BE FIGHTING.
No one need talk about me.
You guys.....make it about fighting and about me.

Mary, continues to violate the rules and talk about the people behind the posts. Whatever....
I asked simply questions on a generic theme about ki.
Dan
Dan,

First off, I didn't make it about anyone, so don't lump me in there.

Second, you make it about you when you make posts vaguely reference the need for non-cooperative testing, but don't offer any followup on that idea other than talking about how Shihans fall apart against it, how everyone runs from it and nobody wants to do "REAL" testing. Considering your background, I think people draw a fairly clear picture about what you mean by "REAL" testing, whether you intended that or not. If it weren't about fighting, why take it in a direction that at the very least, strongly alludes to that?

You could have talked about the sort of progression you try to get people to follow when you show them paired exercises, aka ki testing. You don't have to talk about the exercises themselves, just the progression and use of resistance and pressure and honesty (taking ownership) that goes into that "ki testing" and such. I'm pretty sure we'd have a much different thread at this point. A spoonful of sugar... you know the saying..
 
Old 08-15-2012, 11:50 AM   #63
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
For example:

There's more, of course, like the reasons why Sagawa decided turn down an invitation to teach at Aikikai Hombu Dojo that are public - and a lot more that are private.

Best,

Chris
Nice twist, disparaging remarks?

Once again missing the point. How he behaved. It's a martial thing. He didn't go around continuously nattering about others. Unlike some modern folk.

Being so far advanced and disciplined he had more opportunity to yet rarely did.

Thus those who commonly do shows me merely lack of advancement.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 12:08 PM   #64
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Being so far advanced and disciplined he had more opportunity to yet rarely did.
Good point. However...

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

Thus those who commonly do shows me merely lack of advancement.

Peace.G.
Passive aggressive comment added as a contrast? How can you say things like that so closely together without your head exploding? The feedback and dissonance must be horrendous...

Must be a translation error. You know, British English to American English...

Must get back to my cave and enjoy the shadow puppet show. Much happier there. Carry on.

 
Old 08-15-2012, 12:26 PM   #65
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Watch your tone in your discussion, folks.

-- Jun

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:32 PM   #66
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Watch your tone in your discussion, folks.

-- Jun
Hai, Akiyama-sama!

Seriously, do we have a deep-bow smilie? I thought I saw one here once... Or am I just missing it.

 
Old 08-15-2012, 12:51 PM   #67
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Hi Mary
i think you are mistaken regarding ki testing
Your motives are not that much different from
Dan. Even though i have trained with you only once
Your path and dan share more then you realize

Stan
 
Old 08-15-2012, 01:20 PM   #68
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nice twist, disparaging remarks?

Once again missing the point. How he behaved. It's a martial thing. He didn't go around continuously nattering about others. Unlike some modern folk.

Being so far advanced and disciplined he had more opportunity to yet rarely did.

Thus those who commonly do shows me merely lack of advancement.

Peace.G.
Did you miss the part where Koichi Tohei said that Ueshiba was continuously nattering ill about him? Tohei wrote it himself and published it in Japanese, feel free to confirm it for yourself.

Tohei himself, of course, has a fairly public record of nattering about other people in public.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 01:29 PM   #69
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not everyone gets an "A" Graham.
Negative reviews breed excellence.
Failure is the mother of success.
Mediocrity is.....?

Again testing for what?
Stronger for what?
Martial....? How?

These questions were answered in the form of challenges by men who created the arts we follow.

No Takeda who got challenged
No Ueshiba
No Ueshiba?
No Tohei
No Tohei?
You...wouldn't be here.
They all stepped up in real pressured fight testing.
We...are...many times just cowards who run from the very testing we brag on them for.
Dan
Let's answer your questions for you.

Testing for what? Testing for ability to harmonize with the universe.

Stronger for what? Stronger in the sense of ability to face and handle life and people by remaining in harmonyy with the universe.

Martial? How? ...By learning how to remain in such a condition in the face of ignorant fighting and beyond that, due to being in continuous harmony to thus bring an end to violence and disharmony which means actually making the other better.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 01:41 PM   #70
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Did you miss the part where Koichi Tohei said that Ueshiba was continuously nattering ill about him? Tohei wrote it himself and published it in Japanese, feel free to confirm it for yourself.

Tohei himself, of course, has a fairly public record of nattering about other people in public.

Best,

Chris
No, he didn't say that. That's your twist on it.

Nattering is going around criticising and finding fault and blaming etc. without being asked to. Disparaging remarks made through being asked, usually continually asked, are not the same thing. Reporters and trouble makers love doing this. They know there is some kind of rift and so prod to get a reaction. Childish.

Tohei promoted his way, Osensei promoted his way. Both 99% of the time. 1% they may be found to protest something. Nothing like nattering.

As I said, putting others down in order to promote self or own way was the point made. Deplorable.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 01:48 PM   #71
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
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No, he didn't say that. That's your twist on it.

Peace.G.
What was O-Sensei's attitude when you started basing your teaching around the principles of ki?

He was jealous and told people not to listen to me. He would say, "Aikido is mine, not Tohei's. Don't listen to what Tohei says." He would peer into the dojo and say things like that, especially when I was teaching a group of women. In that respect he was quite child-like in his directness and lack of sophistication—very spontaneous and innocent.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 01:52 PM   #72
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
No, he didn't say that. That's your twist on it.

Nattering is going around criticising and finding fault and blaming etc. without being asked to. Disparaging remarks made through being asked, usually continually asked, are not the same thing. Reporters and trouble makers love doing this. They know there is some kind of rift and so prod to get a reaction. Childish.

Tohei promoted his way, Osensei promoted his way. Both 99% of the time. 1% they may be found to protest something. Nothing like nattering.

As I said, putting others down in order to promote self or own way was the point made. Deplorable.

Peace.G.
As Jason noted in his quote from Tohei - the record of nattering is public, and quite clear.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 02:07 PM   #73
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
What was O-Sensei's attitude when you started basing your teaching around the principles of ki?

He was jealous and told people not to listen to me. He would say, "Aikido is mine, not Tohei's. Don't listen to what Tohei says." He would peer into the dojo and say things like that, especially when I was teaching a group of women. In that respect he was quite child-like in his directness and lack of sophistication—very spontaneous and innocent.
Interesting. 'Very spontaneous and innocent'

So we have a comment made by Tohei in answer to a question. A question to a man who was the subject of a rift.

Now I doubt jealousy was the reason. Probably another lesson for Tohei, looks to me like one he never quite recognized. ie: Not to show off and try to impress the women. That's more in charachter and fits how O'Sensei was.

Not nattering as it was directly to him, about him, teacher to student. As with most people O'Sensei could see through them which some found a bit un nerving.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 02:18 PM   #74
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
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Interesting. 'Very spontaneous and innocent'

So we have a comment made by Tohei in answer to a question. A question to a man who was the subject of a rift.

Now I doubt jealousy was the reason. Probably another lesson for Tohei, looks to me like one he never quite recognized. ie: Not to show off and try to impress the women. That's more in charachter and fits how O'Sensei was.

Not nattering as it was directly to him, about him, teacher to student. As with most people O'Sensei could see through them which some found a bit un nerving.

Peace.G.
Quote:
He was jealous and told people not to listen to me. He would say, "Aikido is mine, not Tohei's. Don't listen to what Tohei says." He would peer into the dojo and say things like that, especially when I was teaching a group of women. In that respect he was quite child-like in his directness and lack of sophistication-very spontaneous and innocent.
Sounds to me like Tohei said that Ueshiba was talking to other people.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 02:27 PM   #75
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
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Sounds to me like Tohei said that Ueshiba was talking to other people.

Best,

Chris
As I said, a lesson. Spontaneous and innocent. The sword of Aikido.

Peace.G.
 

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