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Old 07-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #26
Tommo
 
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

I have trained with Tissier Shihan at his dojo Cercle Tissier in Paris, I find him an honest and sincere person, congrats on his decission over this matter.

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Old 07-18-2012, 01:45 AM   #27
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

wow... 70.000 aikido practitioners out of a population of roughly 65 mill. That is about 0,1 procent which is quite good.

Here in DK I estimate that we have maybe - at best - on fifth of that. We have cheap access to facilities and to a certain extend help covering some expenses - although teachers are always working for free. However I do wonder what they have done in France to get such a huge number of people on the mat.

One might think Christian Tissier has a big part in this matter. Even the more sad that he is not able to be given the recognition that some obviously think he deserves.

I hope they will find a better way of doing things soon. The only good thing about being a small country with a small aikido-organisation is that we are still able to avoid most of the hassle, politics and internal discrepancies that too often follow in the wake of large organisations.

JJ

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:34 AM   #28
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
So what happens if I received my Dan grade from Japan or some other country where the state is not involved and move to France.

.
I know of at least one person in this precise situation.

He is graded 5th Dan by Aikikai but French only recognise him as 4th dan - and he s not allowed to use his 5th Dan status on any official communication.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:33 AM   #29
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Jųrgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
wow... 70.000 aikido practitioners out of a population of roughly 65 mill. That is about 0,1 procent which is quite good.

Here in DK I estimate that we have maybe - at best - on fifth of that. We have cheap access to facilities and to a certain extend help covering some expenses - although teachers are always working for free. However I do wonder what they have done in France to get such a huge number of people on the mat.

One might think Christian Tissier has a big part in this matter. Even the more sad that he is not able to be given the recognition that some obviously think he deserves.

I hope they will find a better way of doing things soon. The only good thing about being a small country with a small aikido-organisation is that we are still able to avoid most of the hassle, politics and internal discrepancies that too often follow in the wake of large organisations.

JJ
Indeed, 0,1% of the Danish population would be around 5574 people.
There's around 28 dojos in the Danish Aikido Federation (Dansk Aikido Forbund), and then maybe lets say 5 more than are other styles than Aikikai, so lets say 33 dojos in Denmark. That means that to reach a 0,1% of the population mark, each dojo would need 169 active students... I don't quite think they have that many, hah. I would venture a guess, and say the average dojo has somewhere around 40 active members? That's around 1320 members in total, in Denmark, around 0,023% of the population :S

In general, I don't think Denmark has a history of doing a lot of Martial Arts, and general knowledge of Aikido seems to be very very low.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:39 AM   #30
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
Indeed, 0,1% of the Danish population would be around 5574 people.
There's around 28 dojos in the Danish Aikido Federation (Dansk Aikido Forbund), and then maybe lets say 5 more than are other styles than Aikikai, so lets say 33 dojos in Denmark. That means that to reach a 0,1% of the population mark, each dojo would need 169 active students... I don't quite think they have that many, hah. I would venture a guess, and say the average dojo has somewhere around 40 active members? That's around 1320 members in total, in Denmark, around 0,023% of the population :S

In general, I don't think Denmark has a history of doing a lot of Martial Arts, and general knowledge of Aikido seems to be very very low.
Hmmm.. after reflecting on the matter... Actually I would think It's more like an average of about 20 person - depending on whether you count the kids-classes as well.

There is a few more dojo's though. At least four Tendoryu, one or two Yuishinkai and four ki-aikido. Probably more exist - and then some daito-ryu/Aiki-jutsu dojo's but let's leave them out of the equation.

Let's just say 10 of different style than what is gathered under Danish Aikido Federation (the aforementioned 28). In all maybe 38 dojo's with an average of 20 active students.. around 760 in all... so we are down in the vicinity of 0,014 percent. So it's closer to one tenth of what they have in France.

To the rest of you: Sorry to get so far off topic. I still wish I knew how they have managed to get such a relative good grip of the population. We might be able to learn something up here.

Now.. back to topic... It is really something for a person outside of Japan to get 8th dan. Does anybody else know of someone else? From this page:
http://www.aiki.rs/sensei_e.htm

I can see that Patrick Auge is an 8th dan, but that is Yoseikan aikido. Is it affiliated with the Aikikai?

JJ

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Old 07-18-2012, 05:56 AM   #31
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That's interesting, does that mean that Dan grades in France come from the CSDGE rather than from hombu? Or do people get separate grades from both entities?
Indeed there exists something special that we call here joking the "french-dan". This graduation is part of the public teaching system in France, which includes some budō like aikidō and jūdō.

Concerning shodan - yondan: When having passed your examination in France (and having got your "french-dan") - as a rule - your papers are immediately send to hombu, your examination is approved and dōshu gives out your aikikai grade.
(My federation with Endo and Tissier as shihan first copied this. But we soon realized that there is no need in Germany having an special rank of our German federation an then getting approved. So now the papers are sent to hombu directly. )

Conerning godan ... I don't know how this is done. But imagine Tamura sensei and Tissier sensei as leading figures: There is no doubt about their loyalty towards hombu/aikikai/doshu. And I think that you did not hear about such special thing called "french-dan" even existed, shows, that up to now they managed to give out the rank only in total aggreement with hombu. Both, Tamura and Tissier where, and Tissier is, very close with hombu. They allways managed to not split up the system they had to live in in France from the system they come from in Japan. It worked!

(But: Does this mean, that hombu would grade Christian hachidan?! ....
This to me is the real question in all this.)

The "french-dan" is due to the public education system in France. You simply need a certain licence to teach: The "Brevet d'Etat d'éducateur sportif (BEES)" (State Certified Sports Instructor). Only holders of this certificate may be paid for sports coaching. If you want to teach in dōjō, you need the first degree, if you want to conduct or represent a club you need the second degree and so on ... .

And another step back is needed to see the whole picture: In France aikidō can be taught in school. You can have aikidō just like maths or chemistry or English ... . So a certified aikidō teacher in france has to meet certain standards. And so the ministry of sports whatches aikidō teachers overall.

Please correct me!!! I'm not sure with every detail!
But I hope even with some errors this helps to better understand the situation?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 07-18-2012 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:43 AM   #32
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Concerning shodan - yondan: When having passed your examination in France (and having got your "french-dan") - as a rule - your papers are immediately send to hombu, your examination is approved and dōshu gives out your aikikai grade.
I am afraid I have to disagree on that point. there is nothing automatic about it since both Tissier and Tamura Sensei conducted Aikikai Dan gradings on the condition of the French grades being obtained. This was totally facilitative, left to the examining Shihan's judgement, and did not necessarily entitle the practitioners to their Aikikai equivalent grade (some got awarded lower Aikikai grades than their French grade). In fact, I would say that most French practitioners do not have their Aikikai equivalent grade.

I have tried to summarize a bit the current situation in this blog post with a reproduction of Mr Tissier's letter. If anyone has additional information on this system (which I have left over ten years ago ad therefore feel a bit out of touch with), please do not hesitate to let me know.

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Old 07-18-2012, 09:18 AM   #33
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Thank you for clarifying!

We where connected to FFAAA via Jean Luc Subileau. He was the teacher of my sempai and my teacher. They had to do their examinations in France in front of the usual jury. This is "the surrounding" where my experiences come from.
Merci.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:04 AM   #34
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Jųrgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
The only good thing about being a small country with a small aikido-organisation is that we are still able to avoid most of the hassle, politics and internal discrepancies that too often follow in the wake of large organisations.

JJ
Here is the heart of the issue really, large organizations, be it governmental, private, or what not. Big organizations bring politics to the forefront. You have to take the bad with the good.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:20 AM   #35
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Marc Carlstrom wrote: View Post
Here is the heart of the issue really, large organizations, be it governmental, private, or what not. Big organizations bring politics to the forefront. You have to take the bad with the good.
In my experience, small organizations have just as many problems (Hawaii is a good example).

I wonder if the value received is really worth the price paid...

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:03 AM   #36
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
In my experience, small organizations have just as many problems (Hawaii is a good example).

I wonder if the value received is really worth the price paid...

Best,

Chris
Yeah, I agree, I'll try to edit my post. It's the being part of an "organization", big or relatively small that brings in all the political, ego, etc nonsense.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:29 PM   #37
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Just wondering out loud if this requirement also applies to other aikido organizations or just the Aikikai?
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #38
Chris Li
 
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
Just wondering out loud if this requirement also applies to other aikido organizations or just the Aikikai?
From what Tamura said in this interview - I would guess so...

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-18-2012, 04:07 PM   #39
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

I believe that the situation in French Aikido will be solved in the most harmonious way.

Last edited by Giorgos Sardelis : 07-18-2012 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #40
Graham Farquhar
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

In my experience, small organizations have just as many problems (Hawaii is a good example).

Interesting comment given that both france and Hawaii were probably the first two countries outside of Japan to establish Aikido with Mochizuki and Tohei respectively.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:18 PM   #41
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Graham Farquhar wrote: View Post
In my experience, small organizations have just as many problems (Hawaii is a good example).

Interesting comment given that both france and Hawaii were probably the first two countries outside of Japan to establish Aikido with Mochizuki and Tohei respectively.
The core of the problem has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido - anytime you get more than two people together, politics raises its nasty head to some extent - just the way things are, unfortunately

Greg
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:33 PM   #42
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Greg I couldn't agree more. Especially if something is to be gained or lost. In this situation and from an outsider's point of view it would seem that the FFAB would go from having had the senior practioner and therefore perhaps connsidered itself the prominent organisation to being subservient to Tissiers organisation due to his ranking.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:16 PM   #43
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Giorgos Sardelis wrote: View Post
I believe that the situation in French Aikido will be solved in the most harmonious way.
Where's the smiley on this? It's got to be snark, right? A country where the two branches insist on only grading candidates from the two organizations in pairs, and insist on passing both or neither? They might as well pass regulations controlling the angle and volume with which they may piss on each others' shoes.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:24 PM   #44
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
They might as well pass regulations controlling the angle and volume with which they may piss on each others' shoes.
I am going to steal this and use it at every opportunity.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:58 PM   #45
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Probably just need the English to provide an 8th dan promotion or two and the French will sort themselves out real quick
I get the impression that the UK has the opposite extreme: Plenty of high-ranking people with little regulation. I imagine an English 7th dan going up a grade would just highlight the dichotomy.

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
I know of at least one person in this precise situation.

He is graded 5th Dan by Aikikai but French only recognise him as 4th dan - and he s not allowed to use his 5th Dan status on any official communication.
If I followed the rest of the thread correctly, it seems that the French dan grade is effectively a separate qualification, connected more to the education system, public funding and privileges regarding public facilities.

I suggest addressing the French yudansha grade differently to show this. We could condense the "French Dan" into a "fran".

Your friend could be 5th dan internationally and 4th fran in France.

Carl
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:45 PM   #46
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
I know of at least one person in this precise situation.
He is graded 5th Dan by Aikikai but French only recognise him as 4th dan - and he s not allowed to use his 5th Dan status on any official communication.
That is pretty common indeed and it is particularly sad considering the "derogations" that exist in order to invite high-ranking foreign instructors to legally teach seminars in France...

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:21 AM   #47
Alex Megann
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Probably just need the English to provide an 8th dan promotion or two and the French will sort themselves out real quick
There are a quite a few already - a quick Google reveals that Terence Bayliss, Pat Stratford, Gwynne Jones and Michael Narey are all advertised as 8th Dans...

Alex
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:18 AM   #48
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

I find Shihan Tissier a wonderful Person and Teacher. It would be very interesting a public, formal response by the FFAB.

By the way… by “harmonious” solution, I didn’t necessarily meant “friendly” solution. Harmony in reality has many versions.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:51 PM   #49
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
There are a quite a few already - a quick Google reveals that Terence Bayliss, Pat Stratford, Gwynne Jones and Michael Narey are all advertised as 8th Dans...

Alex
Rather like in France in the UK there is (at least) a dual system.

The British Aikido Board (Government backed National Governing Body) will recognise your grade/rank providing your national association agrees; with no reference to any other body.

So if someone wishes to hold a certain rank and can persuade his association (of which they are often the head) to agree to it the BAB will endorse it and issue a certificate to that effect!

At least in France there is some formal regulation - even if it can be over the top sometimes.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:43 PM   #50
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Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)

In every martial art the organization gets to a point where the top dogs argue about technique, pedagogy, the “system”, pecking order, what are the ranking systems, “no the foot must be turned 17 degrees to the left or it’s improper form!”, and all that. Above a certain level it’s all politics and that is why we have a bazillion different styles of martial arts. Those that lose the political battle split off and do their own thing. Been happening for centuries, and Aikido is no different from the others in this case, and why should it be.

Tissier has taken the high road and should be commended. Two divergent associations must agree, for the French government to agree, so that everybody recognizes Hombu’s assessment (more or less). Whoa nothing political there.

Mastery of the art is about skill and knowledge, above a certain level, rank is about organizational structure and control. Meh.

Last edited by Hilary : 07-19-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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