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Old 07-14-2012, 06:19 PM   #51
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
weren't those uchideshi of Ueshiba sort of apprenticeship? since he passed away, there haven't been that many good ones shown up. there's something to say about apprenticeship.
There is certainly something to be said for it, but the original assertion was that if you don't train exclusively with the one teacher, then you are wasting your time. I don't think I have wasted my time at all...
 
Old 07-14-2012, 07:34 PM   #52
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

There is a lot to be said for the apprenticeship. I hesitate to toss around terms like deshi, soto and uchi since they tend to be misused by Japanese and non-Japanese alike.

I have seen the products of full time study under top teachers and compared it with the part timers such as myself and the difference is real. In the cases I know there is a selection based on talent but I know there is a synergistic effect that goes beyond the number of training hours, one on one time with teacher (on and off the mat) and just the idea that you have totally dedicated your self to this for a period of time.

This is the value of the Yonshinka Senshu course - not the accumulative hours so much as the mind set. The period can vary but of course is proportional.

That said there are very few of the big teachers (past and present) that can claim to be true uchideshi to Ueshiba. Some of those part-timers did pretty well for themselves but in every case they did commit themselves to study for a period of time.

Szczepan Janczuk is right - if you say I will do Aikido for a short time before you even start - the most you will get out of it is the ability to make a pretty forward role.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 07-14-2012, 08:35 PM   #53
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
There is certainly something to be said for it, but the original assertion was that if you don't train exclusively with the one teacher, then you are wasting your time. I don't think I have wasted my time at all...
i think folks put too much emotion into the "wasting time" thing. not important. the right way needs too many factors: the right teacher, the right student and the right opportunity. now a day, you can count on been pretty lucky if you can get one of the three. now wasting time would be spending 10 minutes looking at a donut and debating whether you should eat it or not.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 07-14-2012, 09:45 PM   #54
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i think folks put too much emotion into the "wasting time" thing. not important. the right way needs too many factors: the right teacher, the right student and the right opportunity. now a day, you can count on been pretty lucky if you can get one of the three. now wasting time would be spending 10 minutes looking at a donut and debating whether you should eat it or not.
Really depends on the donut.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 07-14-2012, 11:55 PM   #55
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i think folks put too much emotion into the "wasting time" thing. not important. the right way needs too many factors: the right teacher, the right student and the right opportunity. now a day, you can count on been pretty lucky if you can get one of the three. now wasting time would be spending 10 minutes looking at a donut and debating whether you should eat it or not.
I've done that. You are right.
 
Old 07-16-2012, 08:08 AM   #56
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
weren't those uchideshi of Ueshiba sort of apprenticeship? since he passed away, there haven't been that many good ones shown up.
I am not so pessimistic as you about the quality of available aikido instructors..

Quote:
there's something to say about apprenticeship.
Perhaps, but I think it's silly to claim that it's the only "real" way to train aikido.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-16-2012 at 08:13 AM.

 
Old 07-16-2012, 08:14 AM   #57
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Szczepan Janczuk is right - if you say I will do Aikido for a short time before you even start - the most you will get out of it is the ability to make a pretty forward role.
I agree with this, but I don't think that's what OP is saying here.

 
Old 07-17-2012, 07:41 AM   #58
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I am not so pessimistic as you about the quality of available aikido instructors..
i have not traveled and meet many of the current aikido teachers. i only used those that i had taken ukemi: Saotome, Ikeda and Endo sensei. currently, they represented gold standard from my point of view. those other teachers, that i have encountered, are nowhere near their level. just look at ASU alone, anyone has remotely approached Ikeda level where he was 5 years ago? don't think so. not pessimistic, but kinda depressing. however, i do have some hope from the small ground swell of folks who have been pursuing the aiki/IS recent years from outside of aikido. and before folks start another of those aiki/IS war, i am not talking about spiritual stuffs, because i am a descendant of Barb and the only spiritual stuffs we care about is to send folks to the spirit world to seek whatever spiritual they need while we steal their donuts and screw their lawyers.

Quote:
Perhaps, but I think it's silly to claim that it's the only "real" way to train aikido
.

never mentioned that it's the only way. however, it's a pretty good way for transmission of body knowledge. this isn't a new idea. it's still valid in some areas such as wood working, metal smithy, underwater basket weaving, donut appreciation, ...

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:42 AM   #59
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I agree with this, but I don't think that's what OP is saying here.
...........
Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post

To be honest, I don't know if I'd train for much more than 2'ish years. Chances are that once I reach something up around Shodan, I'd want to change to another martial arts, something like Judo/Krav Maga/Aiki-jutsu/BJJ or such, something very different again.

Nagababa

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Old 07-17-2012, 09:54 AM   #60
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Doesn't it depend what his expectations are, though?

If all he really wants is to learn the basic forms of some new joint locks and throws, some new ways to fall, etc... he may be perfectly satisfied with what he gets.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 10:16 AM   #61
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Doesn't it depend what his expectations are, though?

If all he really wants is to learn the basic forms of some new joint locks and throws, some new ways to fall, etc... he may be perfectly satisfied with what he gets.
Aikido is not some 2 dollar hooker that you just use to get what you want. Aikido is a commitment. A dogi is not a costume it's a way of life. I believe that is what makes aikido different than other arts. It is not something you do, or practice. It is something you are or become.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 11:04 AM   #62
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

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Shane Bournival wrote: View Post
Aikido is not some 2 dollar hooker that you just use to get what you want. Aikido is a commitment. A dogi is not a costume it's a way of life. I believe that is what makes aikido different than other arts. It is not something you do, or practice. It is something you are or become.
That can be said about anything...depending on YOUR attitude towards it
There are many reasons for investigating or starting into ANY possible human activity be it aikido, hatmaking, swimming or car repair...the newbie who is curious is in no position to accurately gauge his or her reaction upon actually starting to learn it and may quickly leave, may dabble a bit and say "not really for me", may become a dedicated but hobbyist level person, or may end up devoting his life to it to the exclusion of other things.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:10 AM   #63
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Shane Bournival wrote: View Post
Aikido is not some 2 dollar hooker that you just use to get what you want.
certainly costs more than 2 dollar. being pimping out aikido for awhile now. definitely costs more than 2 bucks. sometimes it sucks, other times, blows, but folks tend to be happy with what they get.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 07-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #64
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
It is not something you do, or practice. It is something you are or become.
Speak for yourself. For me, if I'm looking for some kind of religious experience, I go to church. I go to Aikido to practice.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 11:56 AM   #65
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

And agree with Janet -- the introductory level of most activities are fundamentally different experiences than what more advanced practitioners have, and someone just starting something just does not have the real life experience yet to know how far they want to go in it.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 02:13 PM   #66
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Not to mention...how many of us can remember the "newbie enthusiast" who was so certain that [fill in the blank, maybe aikido, maybe something else] was the be-all and the end-all, the key to absolutely everything, the Way, the Truth...who had to train every day, twice a day if possible, who swallowed everything whole in the biggest gulps possible on the theory that more is always better, more extreme is always better, with nine women pregnant you can get a baby in a month...

...and who were nowhere to be seen a year later.

Don't get snooty at a newbie who is just sticking a toe in the water. Look at who actually lasts. IME, it's not the most gung ho types.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #67
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

I suggest you go for it. But when you get a horrible shock, and don't reach shodan in two-ish years, what will you do then?
 
Old 07-17-2012, 04:47 PM   #68
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
That can be said about anything...depending on YOUR attitude towards it
There are many reasons for investigating or starting into ANY possible human activity be it aikido, hatmaking, swimming or car repair...the newbie who is curious is in no position to accurately gauge his or her reaction upon actually starting to learn it and may quickly leave, may dabble a bit and say "not really for me", may become a dedicated but hobbyist level person, or may end up devoting his life to it to the exclusion of other things.
I see your point but I feel Aikido has a "code" if you will (maybe code is the wrong word) that we practice off the mat in our daily lives or at least that's what I was told and try to practice wait....didn't I say It's not something you practice? LOL. Seriously though I think a person just trying to get shodan is not right for Aikido just my thought.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 04:50 PM   #69
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
certainly costs more than 2 dollar. being pimping out aikido for awhile now. definitely costs more than 2 bucks. sometimes it sucks, other times, blows, but folks tend to be happy with what they get.
LOL! Nice!
 
Old 07-17-2012, 06:39 PM   #70
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

So, some might have noticed (and some might not!) that I haven't replied to this for a long time now. This is finally my reply! The reason for this long delay, while I have been posting in other threads, is this:
Several people started becoming quite hostile in their attitude and replies. I didn't want to make a heated reply, so I waited. While I waited, more replies were added. As time went by, this thread completely derailed, people are discussing things completely off-topic, are assuming things I never said, have by now taken every post I've made out of context, and really, it just became a giant hassle to reply to. So in advance, excuse me for this super-long-ass-reply that I will now post.

Firstly, I want to say thank you, to those of you who were kind enough to give a sincere, thought-out, non-biased reply to my questions. To those that read my original post, and didn't jump to weird conclusions. To those that didn't act high and mighty. I might not have liked what I read every time, but I still say a big resounding "THANK YOU" to you, good Sirs and Madams, for your replies.

To the rest, I am thoroughly disappointed. Long has it been, since I've read replies that have been posted with such a "I worthier than thou" attitude attached to them. Just, wow. From some people posting outright flames / trolling, to others demanding respect. So many have, in short, posted "my Aikido way, or the highway" - which is ironic, since it's been made perfectly clear, that people on these forums themselves, cannot agree what is "correct" Aikido. When replying to "newbies" such as myself, making my thoughts on training Aikido be "man, I hope I never have to train with these people", is not the advisable way to represent your Martial Art. Never have I encountered such negativism, from enquiring about a Martial Art that people practice, nor have I ever seen such uproar from people basically saying "DON'T TRAIN THIS!". If you are indeed grown men and women, seriously training a MA that is supposed to give you inner strength and calm, then please, start acting like it.

Now, onto some more specific points. Since so many have jumped the bandwagon on some points, completely disregarding what I originally posted, I will be grouping the replies.
Before, I again quickly want to thank those, that took their time and read my actual replies, and replied in a sensible, mutually respectful, and clear manner. Much interesting insight was learned from your replies.




On the topic of "Shodan":
From your writing so far, you seem to be more interesting in what "club" you are joining and what rank you will get in a certain amount of time. In that case find the dojo with the most authoritarian instructors, with the coolest uniforms and the highest membership fees. - Hilary Heinmets

So if I understood well you want to study aikido max 2 years and get a black belt in 'combat' oriented style? - Szczepan Janczuk

If rank is the only thing you are worried about then perhaps Aikido is not for you. - Dave Gallagher

But when you get a horrible shock, and don't reach shodan in two-ish years, what will you do then? - Geoff Byers

Why are you so concerned with making shodan? Be concerned with learning Aikido. - Shane Bournival

I'm not entirely sure where people have got this weird idea from, that my only aim is "Shodan". First off, in my original post mentioning this, I say "Chances are that once I reach something up around Shodan, I'd want to change to another martial arts". After that one remark, people seems to have jumped on a bandwagon that said "You just want Shodan". First off, I say "something up around", so I'd say maybe Sankyu to Shodan... Shodan itself is not important. What I'm saying is, that after reaching a certain level of proficiency, chances are that I would move on. But you never know, I might get addicted to Aikido, and I might not. How in the world could I decide that now? Nonetheless, point stands, I have no clue why you are bringing up this "Shodan" thing as much as you are, stop jumping on bandwagons.




On the topic of "Not putting in the time":
You seem to go for quick fix rather than the benefits of the long haul. - Jørgen Jakob Friis

Szczepan Janczuk is right - if you say I will do Aikido for a short time before you even start - the most you will get out of it is the ability to make a pretty forward role. - Peter Rehse

if you're unwilling to spend the time to visit all the schools you might train at, maybe you should reconsider the whole endeavor. - Mary Malmros

from what I've read, you don't plan to put much time into the study. - Jerome Cervantes

So, apparently, not saying "I'll commit myself to this for the rest of my life", means that everything is worthless. Lets completely ignore the fact, that I, in my opening post, said that I planned on later studying 5-6 days a week, 2 lessons a day. But sure, f' that, the fact that I dared to say, and I quote, "To be honest, I don't know if I'd train for much more than 2'ish years.", clearly means that I am an unworthy fool.
I would say, that anyone committing to a lifetime of training, without having trained in the art before, is a complete idiot. How would anyone know if it is the correct MA for them, without having trained it? In fact, how many here, started out by saying, while walking to the dojo before the first times training, "I promise to the Holy Mother (or whatever deity you worship) that I will never quit this Holy Martial Art"? I'm guessing, zero.
And apparently, not spending hours after hours searching through every single random dojo, means I'm not putting any effort into it. Good to know there.
I'm guessing all of you either have a PhD, or are completely uneducated. Why? Because why go for a Bachelors or a Masters? That's not putting effort into your studies. You either take a PhD, OR IT MEANS NOTHING, am I right? Because that's what you're saying.




On the topic of "Shopping Around" and "Dojo Hopping":
you want to 'shop around' then I think you should start on something else - Jørgen Jakob Friis

(I don't want to be tied down to a dojo/teacher) Then you don't really want to learn aikido. - Robert M Watson Jr

Well excuse me horribly for having an interest in Martial Arts in general. Apparently, if I'm not a purist, then I am not deserving of the all-mighty powerful Aikido. I apologize. Now, if instead you had read my opening post, you would see that I would move to Tokyo (where I have lived in the past). That would, quite naturally, FORCE me to change dojos. By all means, if you are willing to pay for a flight from Japan to Denmark 4 times a week, please, I'd be happy to take the money.




On the topic of "Miscellaneous":
You won´t get anyone to say publicly which style is better than the other - Lars Beyer

I didn't ask which style is better than the other. I asked a general question, regarding the differences between the styles, so I might better find one that suited me.


He knows what he's talking about (as do the others here). Notice how he hasn't written another word since you blew him off? - Michael Hackett

I'm terribly sorry, that I don't spend the time checking up on the background information on every single member here, that replies to a thread. At the same time, I didn't realize that politely disagreeing, and to some extend misunderstanding (though to be honest, the answer wasn't really worded well for a newbie like me either), was "blowing someone off".


Don't waste the two years you've planned on studying aikido - it takes much longer to become really competent. - Michael Hackett

If it takes more than 2 years of intensive training, to get any kind of competency in Aikido, then I must say that Aikido is officially the least efficient, most non-userfriendly, over-complicated Martial Art in history. Luckily, the Senshusei course disagrees with you.


Aikido is not some 2 dollar hooker that you just use to get what you want. Aikido is a commitment. A dogi is not a costume it's a way of life. - Shane Bournival

I'm happy to hear that you have found, what sounds like, religious fulfillment in Aikido. However, perhaps it would be a good idea to ever so lightly discuss this with others, as that by far doesn't seem to be the general case for everyone. It would be nice if you could avoid such sweeping generalizing statements, posted in such an authoritarian manner, when replying.



Ending on a light note:

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
certainly costs more than 2 dollar. being pimping out aikido for awhile now. definitely costs more than 2 bucks. sometimes it sucks, other times, blows, but folks tend to be happy with what they get.
I C WUT U DID THAR! ;D

Last edited by TokyoZeplin : 07-17-2012 at 06:45 PM.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 09:02 PM   #71
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
To the rest, I am thoroughly disappointed.
The last time someone said something like that to me, it was followed by, "This is going down on your permanent record."

I'm still giggling.
 
Old 07-17-2012, 09:13 PM   #72
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Dude, you keep bringing up the senshusei course as your measuring stick, but then you say you wouldn't do it because of how hard it is. So bsically, you're saying you want to accomplish as much as the senshusei course, but you don't want to be pushed as hard as the senshusei.

I say go for it. Do your thing. Whatever it is. Then check back with us in 2 years.

practice hard
 
Old 07-18-2012, 04:07 AM   #73
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
The last time someone said something like that to me, it was followed by, "This is going down on your permanent record."

I'm still giggling.
That's what you get for speeding on the AikiHighway!

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
Dude, you keep bringing up the senshusei course as your measuring stick, but then you say you wouldn't do it because of how hard it is. So bsically, you're saying you want to accomplish as much as the senshusei course, but you don't want to be pushed as hard as the senshusei.

I say go for it. Do your thing. Whatever it is. Then check back with us in 2 years.
I... what... I don't even...
The main reason I don't want to do the Senshusei course, is because from all I can see, I focuses on overly hard and painful physical exercise for no real apparent reason. Well, I've seen it called "character building". From the instructors I've seen (there's luckily quite a bit of footage), it looks like a playground for sadism. It's a typical "drill it a million times and you'll be an expert" mentality (reminds me of a guy I once met, a Japanese English teacher, who told his students to read an English book 100 times over, and "then you'll know English").

I have no issue with the actual time spent in it, but greatly dislike (if others do like, I have no issue with them, go for it!) the teaching methodology of it.

With that said... yet another reply putting so much focus on "two years" and "shodan". After my long ass post there, I'd have hoped some of that would have stopped
 
Old 07-18-2012, 06:02 AM   #74
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
So, apparently, not saying "I'll commit myself to this for the rest of my life", means that everything is worthless.
Melodrama, and a straw man.

Quote:
I am not deserving of the all-mighty powerful Aikido.
Probably not. Still, try it and make sure you're not worthy first.

Quote:
If it takes more than 2 years of intensive training, to get any kind of competency in Aikido, then I must say that Aikido is officially the least efficient, most non-userfriendly, over-complicated Martial Art in history.
Because you know all about it? Seriously, give the attitude a rest, try aikido, and get back to us. I can't help but think, given how you've ignored quite a few experienced aikidoka in this thread, that you're in for a horrible surprise if you try the same thing in your training. Don't ask for people's opinions and then throw your toys out of the pram when they don't say what you want to hear.
 
Old 07-18-2012, 08:56 AM   #75
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Re: Styles of Aikido - which is right for me?

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
The main reason I don't want to do the Senshusei course, is because from all I can see, I focuses on overly hard and painful physical exercise for no real apparent reason. Well, I've seen it called "character building". From the instructors I've seen (there's luckily quite a bit of footage), it looks like a playground for sadism. It's a typical "drill it a million times and you'll be an expert" mentality (reminds me of a guy I once met, a Japanese English teacher, who told his students to read an English book 100 times over, and "then you'll know English").

I have no issue with the actual time spent in it, but greatly dislike (if others do like, I have no issue with them, go for it!) the teaching methodology of it.
You might be right about the sensushei course's focus, methodology and reasons, and obviously you don't like what you see, which is reason enough not to go there. I'm not saying this as an argument in favor of the sensushei course, about which I know little except what's written in "Angry White Pyjamas" However, I think it's true of most (maybe all) worthwhile endeavors that the reason behind them is never completely clear to an outsider -- in fact, often they look dumb, pointless, silly, etc. Or maybe you can see something you like, but as an outsider, there's a good chance that you're picking up on something obvious and superficial, and that the real value of the pursuit is elsewhere. For example, you look at kyudo and say, "Hey, archery! I can learn to hit a target with an arrow!" Then you find out that hitting the target isn't the point, and the whole thing looks like a stupid waste of time.

So how do you know when there's something worthwhile in that fogbank and when it's just a case of the emperor's suit of clothes, with everyone exclaiming about the worthiness and profundity of Whatever-it-is in order to appear knowledgeable and clued-in? Well, you don't usually -- not as a complete outsider. Sure, there are some signature characteristics of scams, cults and charlatanry, and if you are wise to those kind of workings, you can often smell them a mile away and not get too close. But on the flip side, the true worth of something that really is worthwhile, is almost never apparent to an outsider (unless the something in question is dead simple, and we're not talking about that kind of thing). You can pose the question, but you don't yet have the vocabulary to understand the answer -- it's like asking someone to explain the central idea behind differential equations, and what they're good for, when you haven't even studied trigonometry.

Perhaps more to the point (for us as human beings trying to find our way), even if a pursuit is worthy, it may not work for you. Here, you're really on your own. The alchemy between you and what you're doing...nobody can tell you how that will work out. You may be able to figure it out for yourself, if you've got some insight into your own character and are willing to use it, but no one else can tell you "which is right for me". So I'll say once again, with everyone else, that you have to accept the limitations of the knowable here, and decide to either do it or don't. And my advice, take it or leave it, is to not burden the experience with too many expectations. Let it be what it is, and let yourself become what you can -- not what your Ten-Point Plan outlines. The more issues and baggage you bring in the door, the less you'll be able to reap the rewards of any new experience.
 

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