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Old 06-24-2012, 07:04 PM   #51
"Trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Heather Randolph wrote: View Post
Mr./Ms. Politeness:

I see a some underlying issues here. I'm not sure on this person, Person X's rank in your dojo? That is not clear to me. If he's a 7th or 6th Kyu then he falls under your domain in preparing students for testing. If he is a Dan rank then well it is what it is. Anyhow, you and he need to be clear on that. The second is your responsibility, to what degree are you responsible for the people in the class? These issues might be something you could bring up with your leader, your Cho or Sensei. Word to the wise: don't gossip, don't speak I'll of others, I don't believe it can have any positive impact to tear a student down or to say he doesn't deserve a black belt. That is someone else's decision to make. The thing is if you do everything for everyone, well what about your own training?

I think handling upper level students is difficult, anyhow. And also they are in a new role. Some things will pass with time. If you get him thinking about his own progress he may start training with upper belts. He may not. But if you do something else you may be successful while if you keep doing the same you will have similar results.

Some of the things you that irritate you mention are common habits of some people I have known over the years. It's funny how when someone was late for class or left early it didn't bother me at all as a student in the dojo. Sometimes it's what we make of things. Anyhow, it is a basic tenant of human nature that you can bring out the best in people or you can bring out the worst in people. I really do think you need to examine your actions to see if you could be escalating this situation in the wrong direction.

I'm sure most would agree he probably is not as badly behaved with all the instructors. It is easy to have an enemy. We come to Aikido for a challenge. This is it. If we take the easy route in Aikido then the learning is undermined. I truly do believe he is looking for leadership from you, and you are not providing a steady, clear sense of leadership. Nature abhors a vacuum. There are two ways you can look at it. Either he is stepping up since you are not, or he is seizing on an opportunity. Actually his motivations don't really matter, and he might not understand them either.

I know everyone pretty much has said he is wrong, and yes I have to agree. He has been non-compliant and disobedient. His Aikido must be way out there to not take Ukemi. How can he do randori? But, that is his training, not him. If he had bad instruction it is not his fault. He is a product of his environment.
Enough about him. What about you? Doesn't seem like he did anything actually dangerous, if he did you'd be all over it. Just irritating, possibly humiliating. But, isn't Aikido about humility?

He criticizes your technique during your demo, and that is not polite but, if I were you I'd respond to that. You said he "pointed out a flaw in my technique" which makes me wonder if there was a flaw, if he's shaking your confidence, or there wasn't a flaw. If there was a flaw then thank him for pointing it out. If there wasn't one then show him why there was no flaw, if you need further study to decide then say so. If he's shaking your confidence, well maybe this will prompt you to reexamine this technique. Maybe your rule book says you cannot respond, but some things are not covered by the rule book.

Granted, you don't want to start a conversation or an argument. If he has further comment, that's the point where you can let him know there isn't time in the middle of demos for such discussion. If you say you'll talk to him about it later then do so.

If it were me I'd stay away from a black belt and lower grouping if the black belt isn't someone who was my student originally. Truly, his Sensei isn't even in the dojo. If he is a black belt (?) You could perhaps do some technique with both of them. There can be far too much talking in Aikido anyways. If you show some genuine excitement about the technique you've shown then he may become convinced that he wants to do it too. You really really do not want to argue with a student in the class. I can understand your fear that he might corrupt these students, but it is just not worth it. The students probably want consistency, and if you can explain that to him it might help. Sometimes the why can go a long way in someones understanding. Walking on and off the mat could be a safety issue and he needs to ask your permission before stepping off the mat. You don't know if he's hurt or why? Tell him he can stay on the mat if he just wants to observe. Assume the best not the worst and you may be surprised.

Maybe if the Cho sees bad or wrong technique from lower belts you can tell him that Mr. X has been making his impact and that may get him kicked out, or talked to but sometimes, as an instructor you have to let go.

You need to advise these women on how to stand up for themselves, rather than trying to be Sir Lancelot. Advise them to suggest changing partners if they already worked with someone, heading directly towards someone else, whatever you would do in a similar situation. They came to martial arts class for a reason.

Yes, you need to intervene sometimes but be positive . Be creative. Have a random selection of partners, work in small groups, lines. "work in" with he and his partner. Make him want to take Ukemi. Tell him, you can't do line technique without Ukemi. THEN do amazing big throws. That sounds reasonable. Or Randori. He'd be salivating if everyone could do randori instead of him.
Politeness, the most important thing. Do not let this effect your practice, and then, let this bring you to a new level. It is difficult to progress as a black belt. This situation could be distracting you. This could be your call to action. This guy can't stop you. Unless you let him.
I agree with you completely. The issue is still i have control over my own class, not anywhere else. I've talked with my Sensei, it is really in their hand currently. Especially if he is now avoiding my classes altogether I might not run into him. Randori with him is a bad idea, he is dangerous when he's nage and flat out sluggish when he's uke. I don't let him participate in those things currently in anything I run for those reasons.
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:07 PM   #52
Michael Hackett
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Then your problem is solved. The school may still have a problem, but you don't. You've kicked it upstairs to your sensei and he will handle the situation on behalf of the dojo. Now stop wringing your hands and gnashing your teeth. Teach your classes to the best of your ability and enjoy the experience. It's over, done, complete, finished.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:32 PM   #53
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I have a small question (beating a dead horse is easy because it can't kick back) but does he wear a black belt in class.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:27 AM   #54
Walter Martindale
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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I agree with what you are saying. This is not my school. I can limit his access my own classes, but have no control on whether or not the school will continue to accept his patronage or not.
Looks like your dojo needs an "enforcer"...
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:18 AM   #55
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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I agree with what you are saying. This is not my school. I can limit his access my own classes, but have no control on whether or not the school will continue to accept his patronage or not.
Ok so your problem is solved.

Now share your solution with the next teacher who is graced with his presence and so on and so forth. Eventually he will either avoid every teachers class, effectively removing himself from the dojo, or he will run up against someone who can get through to him and he will learn.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:51 AM   #56
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I have a small question (beating a dead horse is easy because it can't kick back) but does he wear a black belt in class.
No, that's not permitted at all. He chose to join our school with the association it is connected to, and it has been made clear to him that means starting from the bottom up.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #57
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments and allowing me to share my issue. I've come to what I think is the best approach. I take control of my own class and the aspects I do have control over. I think I'll suggest taking control and tightening up on the structures of our classes to my fellow teachers for the sake and safety of our other practitioners. He'll either have to conform to our system and rules, or he'll run out of classes that are welcoming to him.

Thanks for everyone's input.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #58
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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No, that's not permitted at all. He chose to join our school with the association it is connected to, and it has been made clear to him that means starting from the bottom up.
Apparently not.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:46 PM   #59
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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Tom Quinn wrote: View Post
Apparently not.
Reword; he is aware he isn't allowed to be considered a black belt, he is aware that if he tests he will be starting at 6th kyu. However, he is quite obvious in his actions about how he thinks what we teach isn't important to learn.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:04 PM   #60
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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No, that's not permitted at all. He chose to join our school with the association it is connected to, and it has been made clear to him that means starting from the bottom up.
I have a peripherally related question: what would you think of a student who wanted to train at your dojo and be a dojo member, but did not want to be part of the association your dojo is part of and did not want to test for rank?
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:34 PM   #61
sakumeikan
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I have a peripherally related question: what would you think of a student who wanted to train at your dojo and be a dojo member, but did not want to be part of the association your dojo is part of and did not want to test for rank?
Dear Mary,
Just allow him to train.If there are no issues about group insurance andas long as the student pays the fees and conducts him/herself in a proper manner whats the problem?As long as you/student are happy no problem. Cheers, Joe
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:49 PM   #62
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mary,
Just allow him to train.If there are no issues about group insurance andas long as the student pays the fees and conducts him/herself in a proper manner whats the problem?As long as you/student are happy no problem. Cheers, Joe
I agree. If he trains appropriately, then the rest of it doesn't really matter does it?
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:17 PM   #63
odudog
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I think you should film a class and show it to his previous sensei that he claimed gave him dan ranking. Find out if that behavior was accepted at the previous dojo. You will then have a better framework to work with. At the very least, you could get him into hot water with a sensei that he respects.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:48 AM   #64
chubbycubbysmash
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

You know, we had a student almost as bad as what you described come to our dojo a few times. Not only did he complain the mat fee was too expensive--he wanted to train about 8 days a month with us, but was part of another dojo and didn't want to officially "join" ours, which is fine, we have a few students like that, but the thing was sometimes he wouldn't pay or would say he didn't have enough money--he even tried to pay $10 for a $55 seminar! He would make all sort of excuses.

He wouldn't take ukemi often, sometimes he'd grapple if a higher ranking student tried to throw him, and being the only girl in our aikido program, he'd follow me around and try really hard to practice with me, even though my creep meter was going straight off the charts (it got so bad that my husband, whose classes he often came to, forbid me to practice with him and had one of our tougher/rougher live in students even interrupt him when he tried to practice with me and pair off with him), telling me about how the love of his life was Chinese so he knows all of our customs and stuff but then she left him, etc. Talk loudly and correct higher rank and lower rank alike, always arrived forty five late (we run an hour and a half classes) so he didn't have to exert himself, talk back to sensei about not doing the technique the way we were doing it because it wasn't how he was taught.

He hasn't come back in a while, because he got told off in front of the class by my husband about his disrespectful behavior (after having multiple private talks with him), and our live in student became in charge of collecting his fees (and the student is a no-BS kind of guy.)

Sometimes, in all honesty, these people will never learn. You have to decide if it's worth keeping him if he's scaring your female students. If they don't feel protected, and they leave, then you lost multiple people to that one person, and it is still a business.

I'm not brave or smart or particularly generous, but I'll take my values and live by them--and that is my standard measurement of strength.

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Old 06-26-2012, 11:28 AM   #65
lbb
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Wow, Josephine, you've trained in some pretty broken places.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:19 PM   #66
chubbycubbysmash
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I've only trained in one dojo (although I've been to multiple seminars), so I'd say "place" rather than "places."

Every place has their ups and downs, so could you clarify as why you would consider where I train "broken"?

You can't control people, but you can control how you react and who you allow into your doors. There are those that believe in non-confrontation no matter what, but when it becomes a question of safety and legal ramifications, and not allowing the dojo to become a sexual harassment suit in the making, then the answer is pretty clear to me as to what is the necessary steps to take. Everything else, with the disrespect and talking out of line, and arriving to class late, and not paying up--those are small things in comparison to having most female students become uncomfortable because they sense something from a guy who has been subtly harassing them.

A book I had read also said that a lot of men won't see anything wrong with a guy, even if all the women around them feel like the guy is "creepy." Gut instinct is important, and there has to be a reason. I didn't particularly enjoy the fact that the guy tried to follow me into our apartment after a seminar (I own the building the dojo is in, thus the business aspect itself is important to me, and live upstairs with my husband in an apartment that is connected) and more than anything, that was probably the last straw.

There are weirdos in every corner of the world. The Aikido community is not immune. The fact that we ended up getting someone like him was just a matter of chance and time, and when you have multiple people coming every week, whether visiting or joining or taking a seminar, you'd be an anomaly if you didn't at least run into a few.

Last edited by chubbycubbysmash : 06-26-2012 at 12:22 PM.

I'm not brave or smart or particularly generous, but I'll take my values and live by them--and that is my standard measurement of strength.

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Old 06-26-2012, 01:04 PM   #67
"trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I have a peripherally related question: what would you think of a student who wanted to train at your dojo and be a dojo member, but did not want to be part of the association your dojo is part of and did not want to test for rank?
Hi, Good question.
In the past we have had people(and still have some) who wished not to test for various reasons. They were allowed to participate and join our school and train. Those have actually been some of our most respectful members in the past.
Sometimes it is financial reasons, they don't want to pay federation dues. Some don't care to gain rank, others simply have a black belt in another art and don't want to climb ranks anywhere but want to learn aikido. These people have always, and are welcome.
We have one lady who's been with us for 7 years who has not taken a single test... she just doesn't want to join any federation or association.
The problem guy in question has been made aware he dos not have to test or join our association to train with us. But he has stated he wants to test and climb the rank game.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:16 PM   #68
"trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Josephine Fan wrote: View Post
You know, we had a student almost as bad as what you described come to our dojo a few times. Not only did he complain the mat fee was too expensive--he wanted to train about 8 days a month with us, but was part of another dojo and didn't want to officially "join" ours, which is fine, we have a few students like that, but the thing was sometimes he wouldn't pay or would say he didn't have enough money--he even tried to pay $10 for a $55 seminar! He would make all sort of excuses.

He wouldn't take ukemi often, sometimes he'd grapple if a higher ranking student tried to throw him, and being the only girl in our aikido program, he'd follow me around and try really hard to practice with me, even though my creep meter was going straight off the charts (it got so bad that my husband, whose classes he often came to, forbid me to practice with him and had one of our tougher/rougher live in students even interrupt him when he tried to practice with me and pair off with him), telling me about how the love of his life was Chinese so he knows all of our customs and stuff but then she left him, etc. Talk loudly and correct higher rank and lower rank alike, always arrived forty five late (we run an hour and a half classes) so he didn't have to exert himself, talk back to sensei about not doing the technique the way we were doing it because it wasn't how he was taught.

He hasn't come back in a while, because he got told off in front of the class by my husband about his disrespectful behavior (after having multiple private talks with him), and our live in student became in charge of collecting his fees (and the student is a no-BS kind of guy.)

Sometimes, in all honesty, these people will never learn. You have to decide if it's worth keeping him if he's scaring your female students. If they don't feel protected, and they leave, then you lost multiple people to that one person, and it is still a business.
thank you for sharing your story. . I'm not a woman, and my creepy meter goes off. Your problem is very similar to our problem, only our problem guy is very good about paying dues... but we have an automatic payment system.
We had a Shihan visit last year at a seminar,(an 8th dan) our problem guy showed up and took this class like every other class. He was teaching in the class and following beginners around and instructing them. I was severely afraid that our Shihan would notice, it would be such an embarrassment for us. I took the guy aside quickly to remind him not to do this... and for the love of God not in front of our Shihan. He disagreed with the Shihan. He thinks what we do is BS, though he says it in a back-handed way and isn't aggressive with his opinion... but actions speak louder than words. I think you are right, and I don't think this is some one who will every learn from us.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:36 PM   #69
chubbycubbysmash
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

=)

Well he's no longer our problem, he's someone else's, hopefully.

I'm curious as to why he is even bothering to learn at your dojo if he believes everything your dojo is doing is wrong, other than to stroke his own ego. I mean it seems kind of silly to be training in something you don't believe in, right? Unless your point is actually not to train and just point out the flaws in others.

I don't believe you can change personality disorders. Behaviors certainly, habits, maybe, but the fundamental basics that makes the guy tick? I doubt it. If his incentives and motivations are wrong, there is nothing on this planet that will stop him from doing what he wants. You can shuffle him to another dojo, but he'll probably do the same thing too.

I cringed when I read about how he acted at the seminar. Yikes. The guy's overstayed his welcome.

I'm not brave or smart or particularly generous, but I'll take my values and live by them--and that is my standard measurement of strength.

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Old 06-26-2012, 03:02 PM   #70
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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Josephine Fan wrote: View Post
=)

Well he's no longer our problem, he's someone else's, hopefully.

I'm curious as to why he is even bothering to learn at your dojo if he believes everything your dojo is doing is wrong, other than to stroke his own ego. I mean it seems kind of silly to be training in something you don't believe in, right? Unless your point is actually not to train and just point out the flaws in others.

I don't believe you can change personality disorders. Behaviors certainly, habits, maybe, but the fundamental basics that makes the guy tick? I doubt it. If his incentives and motivations are wrong, there is nothing on this planet that will stop him from doing what he wants. You can shuffle him to another dojo, but he'll probably do the same thing too.

I cringed when I read about how he acted at the seminar. Yikes. The guy's overstayed his welcome.
I've thought a lot about this in the past. He's been with us since around December, and so far we must be allowing something that is serving him. People only do what works for them. I think he has no plans to get better at Aikido, or to learn our style, or to learn Aikido period. But I do think we for quite some time were allowing him to fulfill a need to teach others. Leading and instructing others in my opinion probably serves him in some way, and we've been allowing him to get away with instructing 7th and 6th kyu under our noses. Now it has exploded into a problem. I really can only say we got ourselves to blame, we should of nipped this at the bud. But he's been away since the last class last week where I took better control of the class. He was visibly aggravated with how I was leading the class. I was leading the class directly to control whom everyone practiced with, I did a lot of line ukemi drills... basically he was dis-empowered to continue the behavior he has been up to. If he comes back to my class he'll see the same. My opinion at this point is if you come to my class you are expected to train... and train in the exercises put forth. Not discuss, not debate, not instruct...train!

I hope he gets inspired to train in Aikido rather than quit. Not sure if that's realistic however.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:37 PM   #71
James Sawers
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I still don't get it why, despite all the advice you have been given, you do not see that you are now the problem. Here you are restructuring your entire class just to accomodate someone who shows with consistent behavior that he will not comply. When I used to be a counselor, I would describe this guy as someone with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Such people cannot be argued with, they do not/cannot listen. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity - sound like someone you know??

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:46 PM   #72
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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I've thought a lot about this in the past. He's been with us since around December, and so far we must be allowing something that is serving him. People only do what works for them. I think he has no plans to get better at Aikido, or to learn our style, or to learn Aikido period. But I do think we for quite some time were allowing him to fulfill a need to teach others. Leading and instructing others in my opinion probably serves him in some way, and we've been allowing him to get away with instructing 7th and 6th kyu under our noses. Now it has exploded into a problem. I really can only say we got ourselves to blame, we should of nipped this at the bud. But he's been away since the last class last week where I took better control of the class. He was visibly aggravated with how I was leading the class. I was leading the class directly to control whom everyone practiced with, I did a lot of line ukemi drills... basically he was dis-empowered to continue the behavior he has been up to. If he comes back to my class he'll see the same. My opinion at this point is if you come to my class you are expected to train... and train in the exercises put forth. Not discuss, not debate, not instruct...train!

I hope he gets inspired to train in Aikido rather than quit. Not sure if that's realistic however.
Hi,
How about doing us all a favour and moving house a hundred miles away from the awkward student or break the guys legs in a few places?? That way we do not to contend with this sort of rubbish.Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.The mind boggles at your ineptitude to deal with this bloke. Joe.
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:25 PM   #73
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

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I still don't get it why, despite all the advice you have been given, you do not see that you are now the problem. Here you are restructuring your entire class just to accomodate someone who shows with consistent behavior that he will not comply. When I used to be a counselor, I would describe this guy as someone with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Such people cannot be argued with, they do not/cannot listen. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity - sound like someone you know??
In the end this is not my school. I can only control the experience the other students in my class have by limiting their contact with him. It is the head instructor's call in the end whether or not they want to continue admitting this person to the school. I however do not have to admit him to my class.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:00 PM   #74
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
James Sawers wrote: View Post
I still don't get it why, despite all the advice you have been given, you do not see that you are now the problem. Here you are restructuring your entire class just to accomodate someone who shows with consistent behavior that he will not comply. When I used to be a counselor, I would describe this guy as someone with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Such people cannot be argued with, they do not/cannot listen. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity - sound like someone you know??
James:

I am a practicing, licensed psychologist. For us, making diagnosis without an actual assessment in simply unethical. Why don't we leave the psychological jargon out of this situation since it adds nothing useful here. Professional lexicons can easily be misused, such as in your post above.

We can all agree that this person is not a positive influence in that dojo. We can all agree that the dojo is now regretting it's initial approach to this person. I think that it is quite unfair to say that this poster is now the problem. He is actively trying to adjust to the situation in a way that fits within the existing limitations of how that dojo operates. I frankly think that this poster is acting in a positive manner and will discover and learn how to best handle situations as a teacher.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:10 PM   #75
chubbycubbysmash
Dojo: Long Island Aikikai (Bay Shore)
Location: New York
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 25
United_States
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

*slowly backs away from this thread*

Um. Wow. Lotta hostility on the internet these days. On an Aikido forum no less (eep... I'm guessing no one finds this as ironically funny as I do....) Agreed with Abrams-sensei, I think he's trying but not everyone has the same approach to dealing with problematic people, especially if they haven't had the misfortune to do so before. Everyone is different, and I thought it was good to hear about all the different roads and the consequences they have led to, and allowing him to pick and choose what would work for him and what wouldn't. All IMHO of course.

I'm not brave or smart or particularly generous, but I'll take my values and live by them--and that is my standard measurement of strength.

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