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Old 06-16-2012, 08:10 AM   #26
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I started really understanding science when I started working as a lab instructor. Started getting more than half decent when I started taking responsibility for others growth.

I see very strong parallels between my science and my aikido.
"Started getting more than half decent when I started taking responsibility for others growth."

I just had to emphasize this statement again... and again.

This made me remember a story.

I'll try to make this brief. Many years ago (about 25+ if I remember correctly), a very talented budoka who had started learning karate as a child came to us as a godan and took to our stuff like a duck to water. After a few years, he moved away and asked permission to start his own dojo. After a couple of years, he invited me and my son, Aaron to visit for a few days. We took a couple of our young turks with us... the more the merrier, always. After about an hour in the dojo, Aaron and I looked at each other and began to laugh. Everyone was doing extremely well for the amount of time they had been training. None of them had done any martial arts before. Problem was... every one of them, male and female.... looked exactly like a carbon copy of their teacher who was 6'4" or so. Short people were taking 6'4" sized steps, etc. Body idiosyncrasies were the same even down to facial expressions. Kiai were the same, etc.

Imitation can be good... that is, imitation of principle is good in the beginning, but not stylistic mannerisms lock, stock, and barrel. When we pointed it out he was astounded. It hadn't occurred to him, but he saw it right away. It took about a year to correct this. A good lesson for us all.

Chuck Clark
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:22 AM   #27
PeterR
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

ah Chuck.-

Who am I imitating or who is imitating me.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:36 AM   #28
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

A high level instructor at Shodokan Honbu once said that it was obvious who were my students. They always graded well but apparently there was something. They varied from 45 Kg to 160 Kg - male and female, Japanese and non-Japanese, gifted and not-so. Was that a good thing or a bad thing. That was never made clear.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:59 AM   #29
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Hi Jonathan,

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
If this is the case you are simply giving the credentials to the wrong people for the wrong reasons. Of course, no system will ever be perfect.
In a way, I would not even disagree, but then most formalised systems I have experienced tend to end up that way, so I would still claim I am not entirely off track empirically speaking. But as I said, the thesis is mainly to foster discussion, not for me to be right.

In a way, mediocrity was probably the wrong word to use, I am all in favour of aikido for everybody who is willing to learn. I just could not think of a better word.

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
My formal schooling is in science. The best scientists are expected to teach and tend to get the highest credentials (though I'll admit to "rankings" I don't agree with). But what does teaching mean? Science classes for non scientists often come down to a bunch of facts and theories to memorize, but science classes for scientists (which usually really starts about half way through your undergrad, at least in my case) is all about how to find things out for yourself. And for those that truly stay in the field the most important teachers are mentors, teaching mostly by example and good advise.

I think that the best results in aikido could follow a similar pattern. Simply showing the basics in a pedagogical manner to those just starting out and then moving on to mostly teaching by example and letting your students figure things out. This also allows you to have less advanced people start getting involved in actively teaching since they should be able, even before shodan, to show some basic elements of the training to those less advanced.

(...)
The science point is interesting. Of course we have to consider two points: (1) in which way is the knowledge in a field organised and (2) to which level do we want to educate people.

Science knowledge - without going into too much theory - seems to have a lot of inherent logic to it, and the advanced stuff builds directly on the basics. With aikido I am not so sure. A lot of the kihon I have experienced in aikido (and I have trained in dojos of four respectable traditions for some amount of time) is structured in a way that it will actually, at some point, have to be unlearned again in parts if you want to become what I consider really good.

(Now, granted, for a lot of people in all of these systems being really good at their kihon is identical with being really good in aikido. I would disagree, but let's maybe not go there, cause we may end up in the dungeon and it has been a great conversation so far.)

Now, with kihon of 'limited reach' you can still get ok aikido to a great number of people as a meaningful activity, let's say by training twice a week. I am all in favour. If I would, however, design a curriculum for people who want to get really good, I would start them with grappling, bokken kata, bodywork and meditation, and if you do that regularly plus a little aikido technique you end up with a six-session-a-week curriculum. I am not sure how to reconcile the two at the moment. Maybe that is why I hardly teach these days. (And I realise Peter and Chuck come from lineages that do a lot of things aikikai lineages tend not to do)

So, to come back to you academic comparison: I am from the humanities and social sciences, and I see there what I see in aikido: mediocre teaching of too much standard knowledge and disciplinary convention leads to too few people reaching really high for questions that matter.

Thanks for the conversation!

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 06-16-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:36 AM   #30
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

I think the "imitating your teacher" idea is worthy of its own thread and could produce some interesting conversation. Anyone want to start one?

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-16-2012, 12:18 PM   #31
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

1. I think it is important to highlight those challenged with the obligation of teaching. I hope most teachers have sought and received permission to instruct from their instructor or organization.

2. I think it is important to support teachers by assisting them to teach better. It sounds funny, but I know many good martial artists who cannot teach for anything; I also know a few martial artists who are not excellent but are excellent teachers.

Given these two points, I boil the issue largely down to competency and transmission. Teachers need to be competent and they need to successfully transmit curriculum. I do not know if credentials are as important to these two issues as identifying and designating teachers. I think right now, we have "teachers" who when put in the spotlight back away from their status, rather than accept they have additional pressure to correctly instruct. "Your footwork was wrong in the video. Well... I wasn't teaching when we made that video..." I think designating instructors and assistant instructors is a good way to begin, rather than a credential process. If you see a teacher who is not competent, you will leave. If you cannot learn anything from a teacher, you will leave. Just because someone has a certificate hanging on the wall does not mean you will learn from her.

Tangental to the question, but I feel appropriate to mention is that I do not believe the role of teaching [in aikido] should exclude spiritual development. I believe spiritual, emotional, and moral leadership falls outside the realm of technical instruction.

In ASU, Saotome Shihan is very encouraging of instructors. We have seniors who will take extra time with younger instructors to help develop teaching styles and point out important issues. We have seminars that focus on proper technique and transmission. Sensei has highlighted a few of his direct students for us to emulate. I think he has talked about a certification for instructors but has not put anything into play yet. Right now his big guys get fancy gis. I feel very encouraged that my peers will help me to be a better teacher and I am empowered to become better.

FWIW

Last edited by jonreading : 06-16-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 06-16-2012, 01:44 PM   #32
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Agree that teaching teaches the teacher. It teaches how to teach, and it also helps you understand the content differently. I can't imagine doing no teaching for most of your education, then taking a few courses and suddenly being in charge of a lot of teaching (let alone starting your own dojo or school). From what I've seen and experienced, learning to teach is a longer process to learn, learned best though example and long-term mentorship and frequent practice and continuing attention to improvement.

Maybe it's just the courses I've taken (e.g. to be a teaching assistant in a university) and had people I know take (various people I've known who went to teacher's college), but they tended to be pretty limited in how much you could really learn from them -- and usually those who already had significant teaching experience seemed to get far more out of them. So from that point of view I think ongoing professional development tends to be more valuable than courses before you start teaching. You need a base of experience before you understand what questions you want to discuss with your mentors and peers.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:34 PM   #33
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Hi Jonathan,

Science knowledge - without going into too much theory - seems to have a lot of inherent logic to it, and the advanced stuff builds directly on the basics. With aikido I am not so sure. A lot of the kihon I have experienced in aikido (and I have trained in dojos of four respectable traditions for some amount of time) is structured in a way that it will actually, at some point, have to be unlearned again in parts if you want to become what I consider really good.

(Now, granted, for a lot of people in all of these systems being really good at their kihon is identical with being really good in aikido. I would disagree, but let's maybe not go there, cause we may end up in the dungeon and it has been a great conversation so far.)

Thanks for the conversation!
My take is that the kihon are an entry point. They give you a framework in which to learn the important principles and ways of being that are important to learning the art. To stick to the teaching aspect, I would say that as a teacher you have to design your basics in a way that they will never have to be unlearned. Eventually a student should discover that a lot of the little details are not so important, but they should never be in conflict with your vision, as the teacher, of what the students are trying to achieve. Maybe part of your problem is that you have trained in too many traditions in a same art while not acknowledging the huge variation that exists in aikido in terms of what people are trying to become.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:14 PM   #34
PeterR
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Chuck and I may come from different lineages true but I do think the points being made got across styles and even budo in general. So a couple of observations.

Shodokan (Tomiki) does differ from Aikikai for instance in both what we call randori and the formalization of the kata but you will also see what we call Ni nin dori or san nin dori which is akin to the Aikikai style randori. By the way more than three opponents really is not much more difficult just less useful - the attackers just get in each others way and therefore tend to come in as two's and three's if you are lucky.

However with respect to teaching I find that those who are really good at kata also tend to be very good at the different forms of randori. You may say that is due to plain athletic ability and there is some truth in that but on the other hand when I look at kihon I look for other aspects beyond hand here, foot there. As the grade goes up those things become more important till the point hopefully where randori and kata converge.

In teaching that is the biggest difference between higher level and lower level. A gokyu helping a nanakyu may not be ready to transmit that knowledge just as the nanakyu might not be ready to receive it. Perhaps the teaching qualification the Chuck is talking about may be about the transmission of the higher level subtleties rather than the basic movements. I would even suggest a Dan specific seminar concentrating on the strategic rather than the tactical with a teaching certificate to follow after let's say san-dan if teaching qualities are demonstrated - look at who trains with them.

Last edited by PeterR : 06-16-2012 at 10:21 PM.

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Old 06-16-2012, 11:47 PM   #35
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Good suggestion, Peter... we do that sort of thing regularly. We haven't really issued any formal teaching certificates yet, but we're thinking about it. If we do it, it will not be something that is just given after some number of seminars have been met for sure. The Kodokan issues a "license" I think it's called or used to be in the formal kata of KDK judo. To instruct in a kata you should be licensed showing that you've been through a thorough formal schooling and have a signature that is from a very high dan that is really proficient in both demonstrating the kata and teaching it. Not just a "run of the mill" demo type skill but a very deep understanding and ability to show the subtleties of target, distance, and timing; also thorough understanding of the use of sente and the strategic use of many facets of soft kuzushi, tsukuri, which causes and ends in very powerful kake of the waza by using the aite's intent and power. Kata training is the tool to really learn this so it's very important that we don't lose this by relying on some sort of luck that it gets passed on. I've seen very "special" talent in this sort of thing lost due to an inability to teach the principles and methods of learning it. We owe it to our students and the coming generations not to let this kind of art become lost... or just talked about and ritualized in fake performances.

If we humans have been able to pass on the principles of music for hundreds and hundreds of years and are still producing world class, incredible musicians, we should be able to do it in our budo. Granted it's easier to tell when it's good or not because we can hear the difference in music, but it can be done. Oh yeah.. there's more motivation in music too because lots of money can be made through a larger audience too. So what... art isn't always about money...

I just read this... I apologize for the "speech." It's important to me and a few others I know. Kudos to all of you around the world that have feelings of a similar nature. We should all recognize each other and share more maybe.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:59 PM   #36
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Good suggestion, Peter... we do that sort of thing regularly. We haven't really issued any formal teaching certificates yet, but we're thinking about it. If we do it, it will not be something that is just given after some number of seminars have been met for sure. The Kodokan issues a "license" I think it's called or used to be i......

I just read this... I apologize for the "speech." It's important to me and a few others I know. Kudos to all of you around the world that have feelings of a similar nature. We should all recognize each other and share more maybe.
Preaching to the choir.

Of course it would not be just a series a seminars but I do think that they would be an important part in the formalization. I would think it would be necessary to limit attendees to those who have past of previous level and achieved a certain ranking. I say this simply because seminars devolve into just that if the group is too broad. They tend to teach toward the lowest denominator.

Also - after a certain level - those who wish to teach will be actively teaching. It should be entirely possible to evaluate the results of the teaching (ie. their students) and to give positive, correctable, feedback if they have not demonstrated an ability to pass on the ideas.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:13 AM   #37
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
My take is that the kihon are an entry point. They give you a framework in which to learn the important principles and ways of being that are important to learning the art. To stick to the teaching aspect, I would say that as a teacher you have to design your basics in a way that they will never have to be unlearned. Eventually a student should discover that a lot of the little details are not so important, but they should never be in conflict with your vision, as the teacher, of what the students are trying to achieve. Maybe part of your problem is that you have trained in too many traditions in a same art while not acknowledging the huge variation that exists in aikido in terms of what people are trying to become.
Jonathan,
as I said, I agree in principle, I just do not see it done in many places, and I do not se the results - briliant young teachers who will surpass theirs - happening in too many places either. But maybe I just miss it. To me, you are talking theory, but if it is your reality, I have no right or intention to contest it.

As for my affiliation, dont worry, in terms of grading it has always been the same teachers, for more than 15 years. Let's not make it a "your problem is" conversation.

I suppose my goals in aikido and observations about aikido are just different from yours. But no need to repeat myself what they are. Have a nice day!
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:37 AM   #38
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
A lot of the kihon I have experienced in aikido (and I have trained in dojos of four respectable traditions for some amount of time) is structured in a way that it will actually, at some point, have to be unlearned again in parts if you want to become what I consider really good.
Isn't this part of the "classical way" to teach and learn certain arts like aikido using the method of kata?
Isn't this described in parts by the development modell of shu ha ri?
Isn't this due to teaching things first in the omote version and later (often very much later) in the ura version? (I don't mean the use of "omote/ura" like in ikkyo omote and ikkyo ura.)

I practice for over 18 years under the same teacher/s now. I had to unlearn and relearn the (very same!) kihon two times now.
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Old 06-17-2012, 04:05 AM   #39
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

So I realise I may have been too globally pessimistic instead of locally constructive...

First, I do see great teaching happening, but more as a one-on-one relation in a very intensive context: wonderful and encouraging to see, but limited to very few.

Second, even outside the context of kata I really like Chucks's take here:

Quote:
To instruct in a kata you should be licensed showing that you've been through a thorough formal schooling and have a signature that is from a very high dan that is really proficient in both demonstrating the kata and teaching it. Not just a "run of the mill" demo type skill but a very deep understanding and ability to show the subtleties of target, distance, and timing; also thorough understanding of the use of sente and the strategic use of many facets of soft kuzushi, tsukuri, which causes and ends in very powerful kake of the waza by using the aite's intent and power.
So, somebody would then be certified to teach a certain part of the curriculum they have understood deeply. However, it seems to me that teachers would have to be quite experienced (sandan?) to be able to make anything of this intensive instruction? I am not against that at all, but it certainly was not the model how aikido spread in Europe.

Carsten,
I am not sure "aikikai" (as opposed to Tomiki) aikido uses kata in a classical sense, are you? Also, I do not mean to be adversarial but I think the shu-ha-ri model, while it certainly has truth to it, has also been used too often to glorify shu and mystify ha and ri, justifying mediocre teaching in the context.

Finally, to throw in a new idea: In terms of teaching and transmission, I like the idea of having a web of dojos with one in the middle where uchideshi training with a high ranking teacher is possible in a time frame ranging from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. This can make sure that whoever feels they need to make a new step as a student or teacher and is dedicated enough to take time out will have the opportunity of focused instruction.

I may be off until Wednesday, thanks all!
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Old 06-18-2012, 01:26 AM   #40
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
First, I do see great teaching happening, but more as a one-on-one relation in a very intensive context: wonderful and encouraging to see, but limited to very few.
Yes. From heart to heart ...?

Quote:
However, it seems to me that teachers would have to be quite experienced (sandan?) to be able to make anything of this intensive instruction?
In my context shodan - yondan are considered to be student-grades. First teacher-grade is godan.
You are right: There have been a lot of shodan, opening their own dôjô and teaching. Do you know Christians comments on this ...?

Quote:
I am not sure "aikikai" (as opposed to Tomiki) aikido uses kata in a classical sense, are you?
What is this "classical sense"? Endo calls his teaching "kata" (see also "kihon no kata"). And he is very strict about the "correct forms". You have to show this most basic forms - kata - in every examination.

Quote:
... has also been used too often to glorify shu and mystify ha and ri, justifying mediocre teaching in the context.
Yes, true.
But again, Endo sensei often talks about how important it is to master the stade of shu and go one step further. He does not talk about ri. But speaks of himself having created new forms to teach aiki, to teach movement and stillness as one, to get a certain body structure.
He clearly expects the student practicing with him to leave the shu-stage behind.

Quote:
Finally, to throw in a new idea: In terms of teaching and transmission, I like the idea of having a web of dojos with one in the middle where ...
But this exists?!
This is the model of AFD. Having three "centers": One in Tokyo - which may only be a formal centerpoint. But there are two "substantila focusses of qualified teaching": One in Saku, one in Vincennes. Our teachers got there.
Anita K., Bodo R. practiced in Paris once a week over years and years ...
The students of Endo go to saku for his seminar or only for some time. And saku is well knwon as a place where people not only practice, but also live together. It seems it was very important for Endo to create such a place. He often emphasizes how important it is to just be with one's teacher.

(... Ulf also offers the possibility to stay with him, sleep in the dôjô and practice. ... )

And the students (and just "followers" like me) of Endo form a net, a web over Europe, know each other, invite onen another for seminars, "share" keiko.

It exists.

I may be off until Wednesday, thanks all![/quote]
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:45 AM   #41
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Hi Carsten,

I am aware the model I mentioned exists, I outlined it earlier on myself.

However, what you describe then is certainly great, but not what I mean, I meant living in the dojo, training at least twice a day at least five day a week and having a chance for regular personal exchange with the teacher. Its different from all sorts of networks and exchange opportunities that exist in many places and are certainly helpful, I have experienced them too.

Misunderstanding about "classical", for me that has a koryu sound to it.

Best
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:11 PM   #42
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Hi Carsten,

I meant living in the dojo, training at least twice a day at least five day a week and having a chance for regular personal exchange with the teacher. Its different from all sorts of networks and exchange opportunities that exist in many places and are certainly helpful, I have experienced them too.

Best
This also still exists, but you have to go out and find it as it is fairly rare. I never lived it, though I once trained five days a week (oh to be young) with chances for regular personal exchanges with my teachers though I never really took advantage of them (oh the foolishness of youth). Back then, I was in a dojo where the scenario you described was/is possible. The living at the dojo part is tricky since there are no real living spaces, but a few have done it for stretches of various lengths.

I don't think this is necessary in order to become worthy of teaching, though it can speed up the process, as any real high intensity training should.

Different levels of teacher status are important I think, as one should be given the chance of being recognized as a teacher while still at a a stage that requires more supervision. I also think that no teacher, no matter how good, should ever isolate himself from his peers. This is the main benefit of seminar requirements for instructors, as in the USAF, it forces them to get out and interact with people who aren't their students.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:46 AM   #43
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
... I meant living in the dojo, training at least twice a day at least five day a week and having a chance for regular personal exchange with the teacher.
As I tried to say: This ist possible.
There are kind of uchi deshi modells with different teachers I know.

There is even one dôjô where one of the uchi deshi doesn't have to have the money to afford this time. On the conrtrary he get's paid because the time as uchi deshi is designed as "Lehre zum Sport und Fitnesskaufmann".
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:06 AM   #44
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
I read something recently that brought up a question in my mind.

I've been around for awhile and have heard many different ideas about this... What is your understanding about: "teaching credentials" or something like "teaching certification", "permission to teach" etc.? Of course there are a variety of different ways this is done by different organizations and teachers, and, then there are individuals that just decided to teach others what they know. I'd like to see what others know and think about this subject.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Hi Chuck,
This is perhaps a sensitive issue to discuss on a public forum.... What I observe, in general, is that most of the Japanese teachers wished to grow their organizations after they arrived on these shores. They trained various folks, some for longer and some for shorter periods. Then, since we are such a mobile society, students moved away (this was my own case) and these students were encouraged to set up their own dojos affiliated with the teacher's organization regardless of the qualifications of that student to teach. The priority was keeping folks within the organization, not having the student pursue his or her own training at the highest level.

My own case was fairly unique... when I moved away from DC I was a Nidan. That was relatively senior back in those days. Seattle had no dojos affiliated with Saotome Sensei but Sensei told me to train with Mary Heiny who he knew from the days back in Japan. In other words, rather than have me open a dojo to grow the ASU, he told me to train with the best available teacher even though Heiny Sensei was at the time affiliated with Chiba Sensei and the Federation.

The result of letting Aikido grow this way was the proliferation of dojos run by fairly junior instructors. Then, as has been discussed on many occasions on the forums, folks were promoted over the years, not based on any set of technical criteria but rather the perception of their ability to create a solid dojo community and their ability to stay loyal to the given teacher for years and years. What I see is folks running dojos who are often not terribly well trained in the technical repertoire they are responsible for teaching for their own students to test on Shodan through San Dan.

So, finding a dojo is basically a case of "caveat emptor" for a new student. Most newbies have no idea what a good teacher or a mediocre teacher looks like. Many folks running dojos are actually good "teachers" in the sense that they can effectively pass on what they know, it's just that what they know isn't very deep or broad.

Anyway, were I to do my own thing... I would do two things. First, I would do what the Systema folks do. You want to have a certified "study group" at your dojo, fine. They'll put you up on the website. Then, they need to see you. You need to have the senior folks to your dojo and you need to show up in Toronto or around the country for training with Vlad or Michael. Your status as an "approved" instructor needs to be re-certified YEARLY. They don't see you actively training and getting better, they take you off the website!

Second, I would not only fail students testing who do not measure up to a standard, but if and when someone failed a test, I would make it clear that it was a failure of his or her teacher, not a failure of the student. I can guarantee that if, for instance, a student showed up for a Shodan test and he or she failed because their sword work was incompetent, and the teacher was chewed out for allowing someone to show up for a test looking that bad, you'd have a whole bunch of instructors falling all over themselves to get better at those skills themselves. Right now one encounters teachers who will actually admit they are not comfortable with whole portions of the curriculum which they are responsible for teaching yet they do nothing to solve the issue. They don't show up at camps, they don't invite teachers that are expert in these problem areas, they just show up each year at those events they do attend, if any, and look just the same each year. Then, predictably, their students look mediocre, at best, when they test.

I think a system of teacher certification and dojo certification would be the way to go. A dojo that was run by non-certified teacher would be a designated as being provisionally affiliated. Then, when the Chief Instructor received his or her teacher certification, the dojo would receive full membership certification. As far as I am concerned, part of the requirements for full teacher certification would be having a couple of students do their Shodan tests at a solid level.

Anyway, that's how I'd do it if I was doing my own thing... but I suspect that if I did something like that, I'd have a very small organization with a small number of excellent people. I do not think it likely that very many people would want to step up and meet such standards when they could affiliate with other groups that didn't have these requirements or go independent where no one would tell you what to do. I admire the fact that the Systema folks are attempting to do this. They already have a problem with folks not meeting their standards, being de-certified as approved study groups but continuing to teach some watered down version of their interpretation of what they learned in their brief exposure to the senior teachers. They get taken off the website but, short of visiting these schools and challenging these bogus teachers, there isn't much that anyone can do about these folks. Aikido is full of folks just like this who run dojos but do not do anything to increase their skills, do not get out and train and who, if pushed on the issue, would simply go independent so they could continue to do their own thing without interference.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #45
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Thanks George. This is a subject that's difficult to discuss without making comparisons for sure. Your input is valuable to me as usual.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:35 AM   #46
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
There is even one dôjô where one of the uchi deshi doesn't have to have the money to afford this time. On the conrtrary he get's paid because the time as uchi deshi is designed as "Lehre zum Sport und Fitnesskaufmann".
Brilliant!
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:31 PM   #47
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

As an independent dojo...I would like to add my 3 and 1/2 cents. Excellence is achieved in the individual. It can't be conveyed or taken. My understanding of what Aikido is, is training for the sake of training. After 3rd Dan, testing is irrelevant because the real test comes from diligent and frequent practice. The outer trappings of testing and what things look like to other people don't matter as much as what is revealed to each individual in their own practice.

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Old 06-20-2012, 01:15 PM   #48
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
As an independent dojo...I would like to add my 3 and 1/2 cents. Excellence is achieved in the individual. It can't be conveyed or taken. My understanding of what Aikido is, is training for the sake of training. After 3rd Dan, testing is irrelevant because the real test comes from diligent and frequent practice. The outer trappings of testing and what things look like to other people don't matter as much as what is revealed to each individual in their own practice.
Hi Mary,
again, I would not disagree in principle, but I think the key situation is when, let's say, one of your shodans moves away - just far enough not to be able to drive to training maybe - but he really wants to stick with the aikido you and Ron do. He would like to start a dojo. Or, let's say, there is a nearby university and one of the exchange students from Germany, during his year with you, loves your approach so much he wants to continue it in Germany. He is willing to form a study group at ikkyu. Ho would you and Ron go about it?

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 06-20-2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: spelling, it's not my first language after all :)
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:48 PM   #49
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

We do encourage people to teach and train and come back for seminars.

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Old 06-21-2012, 04:28 AM   #50
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Teaching .... I have a question.

In the 1980s when I went through my learning phase anyone who got to 1st kyu in many orgs was almost forced to teach, and/or open a club. Many failed, of course, but many perservered. I think anyone who has got themselves to shodan is able to have a go, though not all will succeed. I mean, think about it. People study mechanics for a year, maybe two, get a piece of paper, and now they can fix your car that hurtles at 100km/h towards oncoming traffic down the highway. Likewise many vocational professions. Most people that get to shodan have probably studied for five years, sometimes less, often more, in their own time with their own sweat and for no financial gain. For many, they don't even begin to reflect and relearn until they try teaching. I have no problem with a shodan being a teacher. Having some kind of formalised teaching system to me is just a modern PC approach, and not that useful. The cert a good teacher does not make. It satisfies the bureaucracy rather than the teaching, in my opinion, and is more designed to inflate the egos of those that give the certs than those who receive them.

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