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Old 06-25-2012, 03:24 PM   #176
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
1. I think there are many people with whom I would not wish to "harmonize" on the mat. If, by harmonize, you mean use to clean the tatami. I think there is a level of zealousness here that implies a [martial] competency many aikido people do not possess...unless you play the game and collude aikido.
2. Some of these concepts seem rather lop-sided. For example, harmony is not "nage always winning." I think we need to differentiate between role-playing at the global citizen who is always right and engaging in budo. Sometimes nage is wrong and uke is correcting our behavior.

How can we train ichi go, ichi ie, while simultaneously allowing nage a few minutes to figure us out? How can we see everyone as "not an enemy" and then construct an enemy to vanquish? When I hear guys like Dan remind us not to play dress-up, these are the concepts that I believe hurt our practice.

Uke and nage are the same thing. So anything we claim as nage must be true of uke. To create cult worship based upon nage waza is unproductive because it does not consider uke. For me, budo is about understanding not only how not to cut down our opponent, but also how to cut down our opponent. I cannot fulfill my role as uke if I cannot commit to cutting down my opponent. This is [for me] why so many other practitioners consider aikido cooperative at worst and collusive at best. I think when you look at a spiritual side to aikido, you need to address its inclusivity of both attacking and defending. Otherwise, whatever you are doing ceases to be martially valid.
I agree.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 03:48 PM   #177
chillzATL
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan, please, give credit to someone. Toheis model was obviously spiritual and saying it wasn't and indeed saying it wasn't his is a bit incredulous really. Only validates to me that you can't really know that much about it
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 04:08 PM   #178
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan, please, give credit to someone. Toheis model was obviously spiritual and saying it wasn't and indeed saying it wasn't his is a bit incredulous really. Only validates to me that you can't really know that much about it.

Many people continue to through lack of education and respect to to try and undermine others by saying 'it wasn't theirs' My Aikido is mine, no one elses. My sayings are mine and anyone elses sayings or words of wisdom I decide to post on my wall would be because I would say the same. It is still me communicating and doing so for a specific reason. As did Ueshiba. So once again I see no reason to try and make something out of it negatively.
Peace.G.
Graham
No...er...your aikido...came from Aikido ...then you made some it your own.
You didn't invent aikido.
Neither did Ueshiba invent the work that gave him power. And HE...never claimed he did. Others wrote that ridiculous story.
His famous sayings? Ueshiba was quoting others.
Toheis work came from others as well

Your lack of awareness does not change history or facts. IOW, your lack of awareness of the existence of these principles they espoused and that it predates them by centuries doesn't help us communicate. Neither did your not knowing such simple things as in/yo being the Japanese version of yin yang, but note I don't get angry about it. Rather I just keep stating it over and over and proving they existed prior to both. So is Chris Li. We are trying to help.
Ueshiba's and Tohei's models and teachings are ages old and verbatim to what was taught for centuries. It being new to you does not make it new...or even news worthy. Reading such things as six direction awareness and heaven/earth/man and how it effects power and balance from a Koryu in 1451 and then Ueshiba quoting it and the tora no maki..is just more evidence of pre-existing work. And not surprisingly...those training it today, are powerful because these things produce power.

I don't mind helping here and there but many people are at least trying to read and digest more of the background material. It is inescapable and anyone on the other side of this basic understanding is not going to look good.
Dan
 
Old 06-25-2012, 04:27 PM   #179
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.
There isn't any.
Further, Ueshiba is cited over and over saying that aiki is not a religion or spiritual, only that it supported and informed anyones religion. Most of the stuff Ueshiba was doing and was on about was to produce power in a physical sense. There was other training but we now have him concretely quoting well known IS principles and all but copying some in his doka.
Sadly they were misquoted, not quoted at all...or were assigned as spiritual mumbo jumbo by a largely ignorant audience. I love the story of him running in with an anatomy book and trying to explain that this was what he was talking about.

Sure he prayed and went on about God/Gods, but he was careful to discuss budo principles as budo principles as well. There is no escaping the fact that those now training the principles he was talking about are now starting to gain power. And some of us are just simply blowing away those who are insisting it was spiritually infused power and yet have none of his power to support anything they say.
I mean...seriously??

This turns into a ridiculous debate, but only on the net. In person they just stand there stunned.
What are we supposed to say? "Good job?"

Seriously..I'm flummoxed. If I can meet someone...anyone...Japanese Shihan...Western Shihan...dear Lord ANYONE!!!...who keeps talking about the spiritual stuff as a path to power and that it was what Ueshiba was doing...that would be great. Then we can see if they can actually do something meaningful against what we say Ueshiba was talking about that produces power and real results...
Any takers? Please introduce me and let us cross hands and talk.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-25-2012 at 04:34 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #180
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.
Emphasis on "mumbo jumbo" not spiritual.

I will not give citations but rather say read up on his life and Aikido approach and discover for yourself.

I will however explain. One point is spiritual, it is a very well known spiritual location point which you can read up about also under chakras or yoga etc. You will find he developed this approach through spiritual training of shin shin toitsu before he used the name for his Aikido.

The basics people refer to are keep one point, (spiritual) extend Ki (spiritual) relax completely (understood when done spiritually) keep weight underside (spiritual)

Then his five rules of Aikido: Three to do with Ki (spiritual) one to do with motion (take your partners place) which later on takes on a more profound spiritual aspect re: sen no sen, and perform with confidence. This is actually spiritual too but you may call it mental.

So I suggest you read up on him and his experiences including in the war, one to do with bullets missing him and how he related that spiritually to Aikido.

All these things like one point, chakras, ground enrgy etc were discovered by spiritual masters of the past. Why? Because they are spiritual. As is center line and hara etc. In fact center line can be called the hara line.

I also believe that the one point was an inherent japanese thing even before chinese influence but that may need verifying. I was told once that Mas Oyama had this as his basic principle too. Once again that may or may not be true.

So basically Tohei wanted to put these things in a way that was easily communicatable (without the mumbo jumbo) and could be worked with as principles with desired effects. Thus he developed his way of teaching.

I'm not surprised seeing how others got lost when told about what one point refers to and the universal love and spirit of loving protection for all things and absolute non-resistance and the kotodama etc. He simplified it for use, practical use. For teaching purposes. A model. His model. In fact he had many sets of principles, not just the two sets I mention above. All in groups of five.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 05:17 PM   #181
chillzATL
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Emphasis on "mumbo jumbo" not spiritual.

I will not give citations but rather say read up on his life and Aikido approach and discover for yourself.

I will however explain. One point is spiritual, it is a very well known spiritual location point which you can read up about also under chakras or yoga etc. You will find he developed this approach through spiritual training of shin shin toitsu before he used the name for his Aikido.

The basics people refer to are keep one point, (spiritual) extend Ki (spiritual) relax completely (understood when done spiritually) keep weight underside (spiritual)

Then his five rules of Aikido: Three to do with Ki (spiritual) one to do with motion (take your partners place) which later on takes on a more profound spiritual aspect re: sen no sen, and perform with confidence. This is actually spiritual too but you may call it mental.

So I suggest you read up on him and his experiences including in the war, one to do with bullets missing him and how he related that spiritually to Aikido.

All these things like one point, chakras, ground enrgy etc were discovered by spiritual masters of the past. Why? Because they are spiritual. As is center line and hara etc. In fact center line can be called the hara line.

I also believe that the one point was an inherent japanese thing even before chinese influence but that may need verifying. I was told once that Mas Oyama had this as his basic principle too. Once again that may or may not be true.

So basically Tohei wanted to put these things in a way that was easily communicatable (without the mumbo jumbo) and could be worked with as principles with desired effects. Thus he developed his way of teaching.

I'm not surprised seeing how others got lost when told about what one point refers to and the universal love and spirit of loving protection for all things and absolute non-resistance and the kotodama etc. He simplified it for use, practical use. For teaching purposes. A model. His model. In fact he had many sets of principles, not just the two sets I mention above. All in groups of five.

Peace.G.
Well Graham, it's all out there to read so to really support what you're saying you need to provide some citations. If you're not willing to do that then maybe you shouldn't be so bold in telling everyone how they misunderstood and got lost, where you didn't. You've already confused an "event", the dodging of bullets, from Ueshiba's life with that of Tohei's. So how can you, much less the rest of us, be sure that your recollections are as clear as you seem to think they are? It's one thing to have bold opinions, but if you're not willing to stand by them and back them up with facts then they obviously don't mean anything to you, so why should it mean anything to us?
 
Old 06-25-2012, 05:30 PM   #182
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Graham
No...er...your aikido...came from Aikido ...then you made some it your own.
You didn't invent aikido.
Neither did Ueshiba invent the work that gave him power. And HE...never claimed he did. Others wrote that ridiculous story.
His famous sayings? Ueshiba was quoting others.
Toheis work came from others as well

Your lack of awareness does not change history or facts. IOW, your lack of awareness of the existence of these principles they espoused and that it predates them by centuries doesn't help us communicate. Neither did your not knowing such simple things as in/yo being the Japanese version of yin yang, but note I don't get angry about it. Rather I just keep stating it over and over and proving they existed prior to both. So is Chris Li. We are trying to help.
Ueshiba's and Tohei's models and teachings are ages old and verbatim to what was taught for centuries. It being new to you does not make it new...or even news worthy. Reading such things as six direction awareness and heaven/earth/man and how it effects power and balance from a Koryu in 1451 and then Ueshiba quoting it and the tora no maki..is just more evidence of pre-existing work. And not surprisingly...those training it today, are powerful because these things produce power.

I don't mind helping here and there but many people are at least trying to read and digest more of the background material. It is inescapable and anyone on the other side of this basic understanding is not going to look good.
Dan
Dan. You miss the point. That line of reasoning you use is pointless. When a person thoroughly knows something and makes it their own then it is. When you know it conceptually and real like concrete you have it. Nothing to do with words.

He did invent Aikido actually. The principles are universal and so have been there since the beginning of all existence so no one invented them but some discovered them. No one however invented Aikido but him.

You saying Ueshiba never said a sentence from his own perspective?

If you want to go deeply philosophical then your own body is not yours either, it belongs to mother nature and there again the words you use aren't yours either for you never invented them. So you see using that type of reasoning is fine for spiritual practice but not for trying to give the impression that a person had no original thought.

Whatever you create in this real universe is your creation, no one elses.

You can study history as much as you like to see similar or who else said similar or indeed who may have influenced but the present time creation is of that person and thus his.

Form a new martial art with a new name to be done as you teach relating certain techniques and principles according to your model is thus your creation. Thus yours. No one elses. A new invention.

So forget the word invention Dan, try creation.

Tohei created a new model for teaching too. New creation. No one else taught Aikido or martial arts according to those principles in that fashion. So it was his.

Trying to tell me six direction etc (principles) have been around centuries is irrelevant for the principles of Aikido have been there since the beginning of time. That's nothing to do with the thing created from them. Bagua was created from them. Tai chi too. All different.

I am fully aware of the fact of universal truths underpinning everything so think again on that one.

Knowing the japanese for yin and yang hardly has anything to do with awareness so I think you mix up 'data and knowledge' with awareness. I bet there are pigmies in the jungle who know yin and yang yet wouldn't know the japanese or chinese or english words for it. Hardly makes them unaware of it.

I'm glad you called it background data though, at least that puts it more into perspective.

You and Chris Li go on about history. It's your translations of what was meant and your and use of it that I disagree with not any fact of it.

In my view you use bits only to fit your view and try to discount what Ueshiba said on a number of occasions with the excuse it wasn't his. To me that's not sensible or open or reason. Everything you do say he said and get all enthusiastic about no doubt was also said before by someone else.

I take all he said for that was him, no matter where it originated, it was him communicating with relation to Aikido. His creation, his decision to use those words for that reason at that time. No one elses.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 05:31 PM   #183
chillzATL
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I will however explain. One point is spiritual, it is a very well known spiritual location point which you can read up about also under chakras or yoga etc. You will find he developed this approach through spiritual training of shin shin toitsu before he used the name for his Aikido.

The basics people refer to are keep one point, (spiritual) extend Ki (spiritual) relax completely (understood when done spiritually) keep weight underside (spiritual)
also, I'm sitting here thumbing through my first edition printing of Tohei's Aikido: the arts of self-defense and when I go to the section on the one point I don't see much of anything relating to spirituality there. He talks about where it is physically located in the body and a little bit about mind-body coordination and concentration, but nothing about spirituality. In fairness, he does mention zen and yoga (two sentences), but only in relating how the one point has been around and discussed for centuries before him. He even says that hard physical training is required to attain proficiency. Not deep spiritual practice, but hard training.

When I go to the section on relaxation, nothing about the spirit, but he does give some very descriptive physical examples of relaxing the body (letting the arms hang heavy, shaking the hands, etc.).

and for the record I come from this lineage and I am fairly familiar with it as it has been practiced up to this point.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 05:53 PM   #184
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Well Graham, it's all out there to read so to really support what you're saying you need to provide some citations. If you're not willing to do that then maybe you shouldn't be so bold in telling everyone how they misunderstood and got lost, where you didn't. You've already confused an "event", the dodging of bullets, from Ueshiba's life with that of Tohei's. So how can you, much less the rest of us, be sure that your recollections are as clear as you seem to think they are? It's one thing to have bold opinions, but if you're not willing to stand by them and back them up with facts then they obviously don't mean anything to you, so why should it mean anything to us?
No Jason I haven't confused an isuue. I know of Ueshiba's dodging of bullets and seeing balls of light etc and I am talking about in battle with Tohei.

I haven't told everyone how they have misunderstood so word games are irrelevant.

Subject: Spiritual. Ki, spiritual. Maybe yours isn't. Mmmmm.

Scared of spiritual? Then you are scared of yourself.

You don't want to read up on his life then that's up to you. Not my problem.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 06:05 PM   #185
chillzATL
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
No Jason I haven't confused an isuue. I know of Ueshiba's dodging of bullets and seeing balls of light etc and I am talking about in battle with Tohei.

I haven't told everyone how they have misunderstood so word games are irrelevant.

Subject: Spiritual. Ki, spiritual. Maybe yours isn't. Mmmmm.

Scared of spiritual? Then you are scared of yourself.

You don't want to read up on his life then that's up to you. Not my problem.

Peace.G.
I am not familar with any such event in Tohei's life and a googling of "tohei dodging bullets" only provides me with Ueshiba's story, not Tohei's. So please, provide citations to support what you said. I will readily admit that I made a mistake.

Maybe not everyone, just the ones who question and disagree with you?
 
Old 06-25-2012, 06:15 PM   #186
chillzATL
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There isn't any.
Further, Ueshiba is cited over and over saying that aiki is not a religion or spiritual, only that it supported and informed anyones religion. Most of the stuff Ueshiba was doing and was on about was to produce power in a physical sense. There was other training but we now have him concretely quoting well known IS principles and all but copying some in his doka.
Sadly they were misquoted, not quoted at all...or were assigned as spiritual mumbo jumbo by a largely ignorant audience. I love the story of him running in with an anatomy book and trying to explain that this was what he was talking about.

Sure he prayed and went on about God/Gods, but he was careful to discuss budo principles as budo principles as well. There is no escaping the fact that those now training the principles he was talking about are now starting to gain power. And some of us are just simply blowing away those who are insisting it was spiritually infused power and yet have none of his power to support anything they say.
I mean...seriously??

This turns into a ridiculous debate, but only on the net. In person they just stand there stunned.
What are we supposed to say? "Good job?"

Seriously..I'm flummoxed. If I can meet someone...anyone...Japanese Shihan...Western Shihan...dear Lord ANYONE!!!...who keeps talking about the spiritual stuff as a path to power and that it was what Ueshiba was doing...that would be great. Then we can see if they can actually do something meaningful against what we say Ueshiba was talking about that produces power and real results...
Any takers? Please introduce me and let us cross hands and talk.

Dan
You know Dan, i'm not entirely convinced that Graham isn't just trolling us all for his own laughs. Coming up with off the wall stuff and refusing to support any of it simply to see how much effort people will waste to sway him. That's one of the reasons I just try to avoid his posts. I mean why else would someone come up with so many off the wall ideas in the face of real facts and then refuse to support them beyond saying "I think it's true, so it's true"?
 
Old 06-25-2012, 06:48 PM   #187
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I am not familar with any such event in Tohei's life and a googling of "tohei dodging bullets" only provides me with Ueshiba's story, not Tohei's. So please, provide citations to support what you said. I will readily admit that I made a mistake.

Maybe not everyone, just the ones who question and disagree with you?
Jason. If you look up 'an interview with Koichi Tohei' by stanley pranin part 4 then when he talks about his experience to do with Kiatsu and state of mind etc. you will find the reference of him in the battlefield with bullets flying around his head.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:38 PM   #188
chillzATL
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Jason. If you look up 'an interview with Koichi Tohei' by stanley pranin part 4 then when he talks about his experience to do with Kiatsu and state of mind etc. you will find the reference of him in the battlefield with bullets flying around his head.

Peace.G.
Ok thanks, read them before a few times, but its been a while. Ill have to read all four now, I'll comment when I'm done.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:50 PM   #189
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
You know Dan, i'm not entirely convinced that Graham isn't just trolling us all for his own laughs. Coming up with off the wall stuff and refusing to support any of it simply to see how much effort people will waste to sway him. That's one of the reasons I just try to avoid his posts. I mean why else would someone come up with so many off the wall ideas in the face of real facts and then refuse to support them beyond saying "I think it's true, so it's true"?
Jason. You come on my thread and I answer your questions. I do not follow you around so 'trolling' would fit you if all you want to do is put down.

I think you should do a thorough study of the roots and basic principles of all martial arts and you will find they are all spiritual.

Shin shin Toitsu is based format wise on yoga which was a moving form of yoga and traces to spiritual principles of the Indian religious texts.

I mentioned Mas Oyama and once again the Master points out the spiritual basis and import of such. It's always the case and always will be. In fact the coloured belts are directly related to chakras.

When the truth is seen as off the wall then I know I am talking to the wrong person.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:10 PM   #190
Marc Abrams
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
You know Dan, i'm not entirely convinced that Graham isn't just trolling us all for his own laughs. Coming up with off the wall stuff and refusing to support any of it simply to see how much effort people will waste to sway him. That's one of the reasons I just try to avoid his posts. I mean why else would someone come up with so many off the wall ideas in the face of real facts and then refuse to support them beyond saying "I think it's true, so it's true"?
Jason:

I think that the troll description is too simplistic to cover Graham. He has a unique quality in which his ignorance of facts is matched by his arrogance of his own assumptions. He has never met Tohei Sensei, his teacher was not a direct student of Tohei Sensei and yet he seems to "know" Tohei Sensei better than people who have real history and understandings about Tohei Sensei. This same pattern can be applied to anyone he claims to "know." He tries to talk about martial arts principles that he is beyond clueless about. Simply look at his videos on youtube and all you need to see is right in front of you. At the end of day, he is incapable, unwilling, etc..... to try and put actions behind his words. Then again, after watching his videos, he is safer taking this approach. His studious avoidance of meeting Dan also speaks for itself. Maybe Graham should try and match Tohei Sensei's integrity. Tohei did not come up with excuses and reasons for not facing challenges to his martial abilities, he simply put his words into action. Holding our breath, waiting for Graham to step up to the proverbial plate is not a recommended course!

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:16 PM   #191
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

I read all four parts of the aikido journal article and didn't find the incident you mentioned above. I did find, at the end of part 3, where he mentioned O'sensei's incident though. He did have a lot of interesting things to say about ki and some of the other interpretations of it out there though. You should reread it yourself, great stuff. Also, there are the other examples from his book that were quite clearly not spiritual exercises, but physical ones. If you want to say that stuff is spiritual for you, fine, go for it, but don't go off saying that his stuff was because he seems to have gone to pretty great lengths to leave that out of what he was doing.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:19 PM   #192
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Struggling with some VERY sick family members and writing in hospital rooms and Doctors offices while waiting.
This topic is dear to me and I don't want to give it short shrift, as I do not have the head space to write at length right now.
In short, the reason Martial artists were and are always supposed to be different was in the way their heart/mind organized and controlled their bodies. In the process this inward looking model heals and strengthens the body AND the mind. What becomes vague and difficult to discuss is that this process renews and invigorates your spirit and gives you a feeling that I nicknamed "Living free in the world" as that is how it makes you feel. It very much resonates with what the Asians discuss with their forging the body, forging the spirit sayings. I find this all but totally divorced from the physical culture; lifting, stretching, running, message, eating well, Yoga model I grew up with. There a few similarities.
Oddly, the inward looking IP/aiki model creates balance in you in heart/mind/body that when expressed in paired training has both a different physical feel and a different result on the person connecting with you. I used to nail people and defeat them and they had a competitive, fight back, push/pull/ reactive mind. When I was continuing to deepen this training I would still win and defeat but it created different reactions IN THEM. I thought this was weird and unusual until I started reading more of the ICMA teachers tracking and describing similar phenomena when throwing people with IS. Truly connecting with someone is not so much about connecting with them as using...hence needing.. them as part of a pair, it is more that you are balanced in yourself and...they ...become part of you.
This has a weird and unnerving effect on them as they feel they lost control. It is not like what I have felt from Shihan in Aikido or Daito ryu. It is similar, yet it is different in that it is deeper and enters their physical space and their own mental -intention- to do something. It is somewhat interesting to hear it from traditional martial artists, but far more compelling to hear it from MMA'ers from full speed encounters. Too see someone smiling at you from behind a pair of 4 oz gloves and asking [i]"WTF was that?...Why am I always late?"[/] Starts to cement certain ideas that the Chinese had as concrete and true.

The flip side is that I find myself completely dissinterested anymore in causing harm. I am more interested in control and imbalance and diffusing and not allowing them to hurt me or control themselves to hurt me. It sounds very Aikido like doesn't it? The only difference being I am making it actually work in non cooperative environments.
Got to go
Dan
Dan,
Thank you for taking time to respond, especially during such a difficult period of time.
Your explanation has made several things that you have mentioned before much clearer. It also took away a few of the matters that I found very confusing or contradictory
For instance, somehow I had gotten the impression before that you were only talking about the body and not about the mind. That made it difficult for me to place you in line with classical Budo that almost without exception mention this changing and renewing of the mind.

The change in the other that you mentioned I found most interesting and it resonates with some of my own experiences. To me it extends also beyond the world of martial arts. It is something that can happen in every interaction.

And I agree, what you say here sounds very much like Aikido - in optima forma.

Having spend all too often time in hospitals waiting, I can imagine what you are going through. Wishing you and your loved ones lots of strength and a return to good health.

Tom
 
Old 06-26-2012, 02:48 AM   #193
sakumeikan
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Jason. If you look up 'an interview with Koichi Tohei' by stanley pranin part 4 then when he talks about his experience to do with Kiatsu and state of mind etc. you will find the reference of him in the battlefield with bullets flying around his head.

Peace.G.
Dear Graham,
My old great granddad fought in France in the first World War.He sustained injuries to his stomach area.Now lots of soldiers have been in battle and had bullets flying around them.Thats expected when some guy is trying to knock you off.The enemy is not firing custard pies at his enemy.So Graham , my old great granddad had the same experiences, so does this make himin effect the same as Tohei Sensei?I think not.Your logic is flawed.All that Tohei Sensei said was he in effect had a clear mind.Try as others have suggested and give more relevant facts/documentation to support your theories.Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 03:17 AM   #194
sakumeikan
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There isn't any.
Further, Ueshiba is cited over and over saying that aiki is not a religion or spiritual, only that it supported and informed anyones religion. Most of the stuff Ueshiba was doing and was on about was to produce power in a physical sense. There was other training but we now have him concretely quoting well known IS principles and all but copying some in his doka.
Sadly they were misquoted, not quoted at all...or were assigned as spiritual mumbo jumbo by a largely ignorant audience. I love the story of him running in with an anatomy book and trying to explain that this was what he was talking about.

Sure he prayed and went on about God/Gods, but he was careful to discuss budo principles as budo principles as well. There is no escaping the fact that those now training the principles he was talking about are now starting to gain power. And some of us are just simply blowing away those who are insisting it was spiritually infused power and yet have none of his power to support anything they say.
I mean...seriously??

This turns into a ridiculous debate, but only on the net. In person they just stand there stunned.
What are we supposed to say? "Good job?"

Seriously..I'm flummoxed. If I can meet someone...anyone...Japanese Shihan...Western Shihan...dear Lord ANYONE!!!...who keeps talking about the spiritual stuff as a path to power and that it was what Ueshiba was doing...that would be great. Then we can see if they can actually do something meaningful against what we say Ueshiba was talking about that produces power and real results...
Any takers? Please introduce me and let us cross hands and talk.

Dan
Dear Dan,
There is no doubt that O Sensei was heavily influenced by his religious beliefs.Can we agree on that? It is also well known that his uchideshi were subjected to long discourses on stuff like the Kojiki etc.relationship of gods/man etc.Most if not all was not understood by the Uchi Deshi.Some at a later point in time may well have a better idea of what Ueshiba was talking about.I think O Sensei
used terms which are laced with imagery /hidden meaning/koans.
At the same time I am sure O Sensei was aware of Chinese/Indian concepts of Yin Yang /In Jo /Ki /Prana, and ascetic practices/Misogi]..Whether these developed his body art is not totally clear, I believe these various streams of info. must have had some bearing.My own slight knowledge of Chinese arts/Tibetan/Indian yoga suggest that this is case.It would suggest to me that he acquired body skills through intensive training methods and his work on the land.This no doubt gave him a powerful physique[see his early days pics].So a powerful body /mind and backed up with
religious beliefs[Animism/Shamenism ] I think this is how he became the man he was.Cheers, Joe.

Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 04:54 AM   #195
tombuchanan
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Probably poor form to quote the wiki but..

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

Onisaburo Deguchi
... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.
At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love - the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...
Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[12]

His second experience occurred in 1940 when,
"Around 2am as I was performing misogi, I suddenly forgot all the martial techniques I had ever learned. The techniques of my teachers appeared completely new. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, and virtue, not devices to throw people with."[citation needed]

His third experience was in 1942 during the worst fighting of WWII, Ueshiba had a vision of the "Great Spirit of Peace".[2]
"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.


..I'm still wondering how one can really have any kind of spiritual practice without some sort of enlightenment or awakening. Shouldn't the focus be on finding these experiences instead of copying the movements of those who got hit by the spiritual anvil? If not, aren't we just putting on our Air Jordan's and trying to pretend we're in the NBA?

As some frequently point out, the non-cooperative opponent is a necessity. Obviously, if someone's "stuff" only works against cooperative opponents or those of a lesser physical stature, the value of that "stuff" is dubious. Similarly, if a spiritual practice is merely a copy of someone else's tradition or collection of aphorisms, can it really be spiritual?

In the same way that martial effectiveness is validated by success against a non-cooperative opponent, isn't spiritual veracity proven through a genuine transformational experience?
 
Old 06-26-2012, 08:33 AM   #196
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Thankyou Tom,

I really resonate with this. This kind of Budo has a real voice in today's global issues.
It gives direction and purpose to our political, social, economic, and environmental choices.
It reminds me of Tecumseh's words of wisdom.

http://coyoteprime-runningcauseicant...-life.html?m=1

Puha

Chris
 
Old 06-26-2012, 08:46 AM   #197
gregstec
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.
I am with you on this - When I think of Tohei and his stuff, spiritual just does not come into mind - ki is what Tohei was all about and Ki is not a spiritual thing; it is simply an energy that bridges the mental to the physical.

Greg
 
Old 06-26-2012, 09:10 AM   #198
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

If spiritual is described as connection and compassion (quick description not just limited to that) and not religion, Ki has everything to do with it. The energy that connects the physical to the emotional, in my opinion, is the spiritual. Aikido practiced with an emphasis on Ki development enhances that awareness.

 
Old 06-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #199
Chris Knight
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Im toadally confused

Punami

Chris
 
Old 06-26-2012, 10:09 AM   #200
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Im toadally confused

Punami

Chris
Is that Asian or vajayjay?

Chris
 

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