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Old 07-04-2002, 10:47 PM   #1
PhiGammaDawg
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Question exaggerated stories of O'Sensei???

i don't know if this is necessarily relevant or not but i feel that because of this he is deified into a supernatural man. Call me a skeptic or a doubting Thomas. I need to see to believe...

for example

Story of two black belts attacking O'Sensei
"There are many stories of his (Uyeshiba) incredible feats, which are scoffed at by skeptics (ME!); but there is a strip of film, showing the master as an old man of 75, being charged from both sides, at top speed, by 2 large Judo black belts. Projected in slow motion, successive frames show O'Sensei standing calmly while his attackers inch their way forward. But, just as they are about to grab him, between two frames he has moved several feet out of the way and is facing in the other direction. The 2 black belts continue their rush, to collide violently into each other, while Ueshiba watches. Such a movement, which from the film testimony must have taken less than 1/18th of a second, demonstrates a transcendence of the normal laws of time and space, a penetration of this world bu the magical world of the eternal, the world of myth and the archetype."
- Peter Payne "martial arts"



my answer<------- YEAH RIGHT buddy!!

good luck with whatever you are smoking...

(opinions and ideas concerning brief rambling are not discriminated against and criticisms and *sigh* insults are widely accepted)

"Saki yakitachi o nukeba, masu masu masurao no kokoro wo togu bekari keri."
--"Before you draw the tempered blade, first temper and purify your own soul."--
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Old 07-04-2002, 11:33 PM   #2
Duarh
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I'd say that what's being described is realistic enough for there to be no need for magical archetypes or whatever the guy was talking about
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Old 07-05-2002, 12:55 AM   #3
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duarh
I'd say that what's being described is realistic enough for there to be no need for magical archetypes or whatever the guy was talking about
Realistic? This sounds like a scene from a bad comic movie. I mean 2 guys charging at full speed at exactly opposite angles. Come on ...
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Old 07-05-2002, 02:02 AM   #4
shihonage
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You can see something mildly similar in Seagal's "Above the Law" where he arrests a few guys and then they attack him in a grocery store.
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Old 07-05-2002, 03:07 AM   #5
Duarh
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i'm not talking about the set-up as being realistic, I'm talking about O'sensei having stepped aside in that small moment of time as realistic, even if not exactly 'easy'
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Old 07-05-2002, 06:48 AM   #6
Genex
 
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Cool

what, you guys dont beleive in the spiritual worlds, n stuff ?
magic does exist in some forms, but i dont think Ueshiba used magic at all i think he was just quick, think about it, many of the top martial arts experts are VERY fast the ones most noted are the famous ones obviously but there we go, for instance how fast is YOUR sensei? we had a guest sensei last night i think it was Sensei Bertrum? unsure on the spelling from over in hyde, manchester he was damn quick, we were doing (exuse my failing japanese) Ryoti Dori both hand grab then as you brought the arms up (palms up) you grabbed one of your apponents hands (thumb on little finger knuckle) then twisted their arm over whilst cutting into the hand you had hold of with your other hand? a two handed grab moving to inverted sankyo or sommat?
anyhoo throughout he was very quick.


i think Ueshiba was fast, the six gun story may be one of these instances where fiction meets reality, i think i've already asked can this story be verified? what if it can?, what then?

pete

like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. - The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy on the Pan-galactic Gargleblaster!
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Old 07-05-2002, 07:03 AM   #7
L. Camejo
 
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Re: exaggerated stories of O'Sensei???

Quote:
Originally posted by PhiGammaDawg
just as they are about to grab him, between two frames he has moved several feet out of the way and is facing in the other direction....
.... Such a movement, which from the film testimony must have taken less than 1/18th of a second, demonstrates a transcendence of the normal laws of time and space, a penetration of this world bu the magical world of the eternal, the world of myth and the archetype."
- Peter Payne "martial arts"
Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is.


L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-05-2002, 07:41 AM   #8
tedehara
 
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Film at 10

Quote:
Originally posted by Genex
...i think he was just quick, think about it, many of the top martial arts experts are VERY fast the ones most noted are the famous ones obviously but there we go, for instance how fast is YOUR sensei? ...pete
One of my instructors got some 8mm film of O Sensei doing sword play with another person. He said that if you run the film at normal speed, it would look like O Sensei would strike first with one stroke. However, if you ran the film at super slow speed, you could see O Sensei do three or four cuts, which only looked like one cut at normal speed.

Some of what he did is all documented. If you have any doubts, you can study the film yourself.

I am also reminded of Bruce Lee. His punch was so fast, they had him slow it down for filming. I believe film speed then was 1/24th sec/frame.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 07-05-2002, 07:56 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
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After training for awhile and seeing some great demonstrations, the stories become less and less magical.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-05-2002, 08:27 AM   #10
Paula Lydon
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When viewed from the standpoint of knowledge and expierence, many seemingly impossible things are understood. O Sensie, like any legendary personality that people follow, tends to become a mix of truth and myth. I say enjoy it all, learn what you can and let the rest go. For himself, he was there; for you, he can only point the way as the experience must be direct. This is one of those topics where petty arguing is about as useful as tits on a snake...

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-05-2002, 11:11 AM   #11
Erik
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Re: Re: exaggerated stories of O'Sensei???

Quote:
Such a movement, which from the film testimony must have taken less than 1/18th of a second, demonstrates a transcendence of the normal laws of time and space, a penetration of this world bu the magical world of the eternal, the world of myth and the archetype."
- Peter Payne "martial arts"
You sure this wasn't Max Payne? Sounds like bullet time to me.
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Old 07-05-2002, 11:28 AM   #12
Charles
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Quote:
i dont think Ueshiba used magic at all i think he was just quick
In reference to O'Sensi's 1924 attempt to seize Manchuria and Mongolia by force, Kisshomaru Ueshiba writes:

Quote:
He had been been deply affected by the expedition to Manchuria and Mongolia, in particular by his experiences of facing death under gunfire, and he had found that he could see flashes of light indicating the path of oncoming bullets. The discovery of this intuitive sense was a profound experience for Morihei, and after returning to Japan, he frequently encountered situations where he felt manifestations of a spiritual force.
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Old 07-05-2002, 02:10 PM   #13
Erik
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Quote:
He had been been deply affected by the expedition to Manchuria and Mongolia, in particular by his experiences of facing death under gunfire, and he had found that he could see flashes of light indicating the path of oncoming bullets. The discovery of this intuitive sense was a profound experience for Morihei, and after returning to Japan, he frequently encountered situations where he felt manifestations of a spiritual force.
It's interesting that I could take something like this in two ways. One is the implied sense of supernatural awareness (sensing of bullets) and the other might be that he was somewhat delusional. Ueshiba is not the first nor last to have a strong reaction to being shot at. I don't know how much combat he faced but an awful lot of people don't get shot in combat.

That he didn't get shot far more likely means that the statistics won out. So, by surviving he may have felt empowered in a certain way based on his world view and off he went. Maybe that belief helped him to become what he became, hard to say, but it doesn't mean that he actually saw the bullets or flashes. It just means that he thought he did.
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Old 07-05-2002, 10:09 PM   #14
batemanb
 
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Re: Film at 10

Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara

One of my instructors got some 8mm film of O Sensei doing sword play with another person. He said that if you run the film at normal speed, it would look like O Sensei would strike first with one stroke. However, if you ran the film at super slow speed, you could see O Sensei do three or four cuts, which only looked like one cut at normal speed.

Some of what he did is all documented. If you have any doubts, you can study the film yourself.

I am also reminded of Bruce Lee. His punch was so fast, they had him slow it down for filming. I believe film speed then was 1/24th sec/frame.
Have you ever seen high level kendoka in action? There was a documentary on the Discovery channel a couple of years back, following the exploits of a couple of gentleman testing for 8th Dan. Marvelous documentary with some fantastic footage, they are just so fast with their sword striking, to the naked eye in real time, it is easy to miss many of the strikes, but watch in slow mo` and you can see two or three of them quicker than the blink of an eye!

One of the most interesting facets of the program was the fact that in order to pass the test, one of the most important things that they had to achieve was to give up the idea of winning, effectively they needed an aiki mind. Sorry, didn`t mean to digress the thread, just agreeing that some people can be extremely fast.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 07-06-2002, 08:44 AM   #15
Kensai
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O Sensei

I think thats is grea that our O Sensei has an air of mystism about him. He was a great man, after all. And who is to say that he cant optain truely great feats.

If you have the time go to the www.aikidojournal.com

This has some great videos of O Sensei in action.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 07-08-2002, 09:09 AM   #16
Bruce Baker
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Fantastical

You have to remember the quality of video compared to the speed of movement is nowhere near what it is today.

There is also a factor of reality verses description. Although O'Sensei struck three times in the slow motion, was it three full strikes or one strike with two bounces for recovery movement of the bokken as not to break the attackers weapon? This would certainly look like three strikes in slow motion, even if they are partial strikes.

On the other hand, how fast do you need to move to cause blurr effect on certain types of film? I am sure you have seen stuntmen who throw those slow roundhouse punches with incredible power and effect .... just so the camera could properly capture the image on film without blurr or loss of quality.

On the other hand, the advantages of slowmotion filming uses more film, requires proper lighting, and shows incredible detail to movements barely within the eyes perception? If you have ever practiced drawing a sixshooter out of a holster, cocking it, firing it, then returning it to the holster in less than a second then you have a clue as to the capablility of what practice can do for you.

There are incredible stories about O'Sensei, but sometimes it is not the stories that are incredible, but way the stories are related that are incredible.

O'Sensei trained in an eclectic manner, above and beyond that of his contemporarys, which in effect made him an incredibly strong man.

Muscles have a memory, and even when they are contracting in size as years go by, they still remember when they were much stronger, leaner, more limber. Hence it might take longer to stretch, or take more effort mentally to achieve the same level of function once achieved by mass, but none the less much of the power is still contained in muscle memory.

So, I won't say O'Sensei was not incredible for his day, or that one day someone is capable of attaining equal attributes or equal performance, but that they can reach, as we all have the capability to reach, beyond the average to the point of training to appear supernatural.

It is nice to have stories and hero's, but the main focus of your training is not to be O'Sensei, but to be who you are.

When you look back at your experiences and training from where you started to where you are ... that is very incredible!
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Old 07-08-2002, 09:53 AM   #17
Lyle Bogin
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I prefer stories to be exaggerated. Let's make up some new stories about O'Sensei just to keep skeptics annoyed, true believers happy, and everyone else entertained!
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Old 07-08-2002, 02:38 PM   #18
Robert Cowham
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Speed is also a relative thing.

I have seen a variety of demos where it appeared that nage was almost moving in slow motion and that uke was "falling" for him.

It's a lot about timing when you get good enough, and an ability to control the other person - almost reduce their speed to yours.

Well, that's what it seems to me!

Robert
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