Meditation

Hi all just wondering does anybody else meditate regularly? for any reason really for center, religious reasons etc...?

since you found aikido have you been sitting in Seiza when you do meditate or am i now being wierd?
pete

In the Ki Society (Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido) Ki breathing and Ki meditation are done regularly to promote relaxation and Ki development. I also know of other aikido groups who have a close association with Zen. Many members of those groups practice Zen meditation techniques. I also know of one least one person who regularly does Transcendental meditation (TM). I believe you can do all three meditations in seiza, while you can also do the Ki and Transcendental meditation in a chair.

Traditionally the Japanese martial arts have used meditation to give depth to the martial arts experience. By not meditating, I think many people are closing themselves off from much of the spiritual development in the martial arts.

By just doing the physical side of a martial art, people tend to treat it like a sport. While those who meditate see their spiritual development carried over into their physical training.

Before I step off this soapbox, I'd like to add, "I don't think you're being weird."

IMHO, most meditation technqiues are actually concentration techniques that discipline the mind. The mental discipline has some very very cross over benefits to any physical discipline. I often quote, where ever the head goes the body tends to follow.

BTW, I meditate daily. Zazen.

Until again,

Lynn

thanx now i dont feel quite so alone
pete

Originally posted by Genex Hi all just wondering does anybody else meditate regularly? for any reason really for center, religious reasons etc...? since you found aikido have you been sitting in Seiza when you do meditate or am i now being wierd? pete

Hello Peter

I meditate during my lunchbreaks at work. It helps with my concentration in the afternoon

Btw, Sensei has put Yonkyo on me and it works REALLY well

Have you trained with London Institute of Aikido people. My Sensei's Sensei is Haydn Foster Sensei

All the best for your training

Our training begins with moksu and ends with same. Well actually a bow, the meditation comes second and is second from last.

I've actually wondered about that. Aside from a little verbal direction (empty your mind, breath, etc) there really is not much instruction in meditative technique. You are sort of required to find your own way. How do you know you are really doing it right?

I use moksu at the beginning of practice to actively replace the days worries, joys, problems in my head with the smell of the dojo. I visualize a connection between my lungs and my brain. At the end of practice it is the moment I choose the main take home subject of the lesson, think about it and finally punctuate it with the bow.

I do not see any connection between zen meditation and Budo - the idea of emptying the mind is somehow foreign and contradictory. Apparently Zen has very little historical link to budo also although you will on occaision find people who practice both. I am not sure who told me this but to do Zazen right require a lot of time and effort - for a samurai worried about getting his head chopped off time is better spent in the dojo.

Lynn's description sounds pretty good. Improving mental focus has benefits for sport application also but again - isn't this contray to zazen?

I know nothing of TM other than a lunatic fringe political party in Canada has it as a platform plank.

Originally posted by Genex Hi all just wondering does anybody else meditate regularly? for any reason really for center, religious reasons etc...? since you found aikido have you been sitting in Seiza when you do meditate or am i now being wierd? pete

The key to maintaining control of body and mind is not to let emotional or physical pains influence your decisions, meditation, although a narrow view by some, is a broad way to practice this control.

What many people have mistaken for regaining of mental and physical balance in ONE certain position or ONE type of meditation is so much greater in application than most people want to admit.

Although sitting, the preferred method of most meditation, in a static postion is the first thought of people when you mention meditation, the actual practice of Aikido, focusing on something that gains your full attention, or even driving your car can become meditation if put into proper focus with just a few hints or pointers from static meditation.

What is it you are trying to do with static meditation?

Are you trying to calm your body, let your mind settle from thousands of thoughts, relieve the stress of your day? Why not let the same principles become moving meditation?

It takes a while to get into moving meditation. Many people associate sononbalistic (sleeping) meditation with calming and settling states of mind and body, but in searching for the way to keep the conscious mind from blocking action with thousands of thoughts while you practice, don't you enter a state of moving meditation when Aikido works the best? Withing this state of moving meditation, you will find your strength is increased, your endurance increases, and even your control to execute technique or take technique (ukemi) is profoundly increased.

Don't get caught up in static meditation, it is merely the first step in learning to connect with your body and mind as they cope with the worlds normal stress or physical exhaustion ... a way to renew both sources of energy.

Over my years of searching what kind of meditation works for me, I find that it not so much the position or location that induces a calming meditative state, but concentrating one thought with the body relaxed that induces the meditative state. You can do it sitting, standing, driving, walking, work, or even household chores ... it is all a state of mind withing the given state of relaxation.

Eventually, it can be adapted to most of your daily chores or work, and the clarity it will give you will be incredible.

Think about .... Moving Meditation.

(For those of you who label it KI ... as those of you in ki societys, you are doing moving meditation ... just so you know that it is not patented or restricted to your type of Aikido. You can research it in meditation and religious cultures of India.)

Zazen is not simply emptying the mind, or not thinking. It is existing now, in the present, without applying the dualities of good and bad, self and other, to what we experience. The famous zen master Dogen said that to sit meditation is to be enlightened; it is not a process or an experience, it is simply 'being'. This probably all sounds very esoteric and obscure, but it is something that is beyond the scope of words and concepts, and I have to resort to re-hashed cliches found in the hundreds of books on zen.

There are strong links between zen and the samurai. They adopted it because of its non-attached, non-materialistic approach that allowed them to face death with indiference, and because it developed joriki, or single pointed concentration, vital for success in martial arts and on the battlefield. This concentrated state of mind also fostered the other zen arts practised by the samurai such as calligraphy, painting and the tea ceremony.

So, in response to PeterR, zazen actually is about developing mental focus, and this is done not by emptying the mind, but by reducing the mental 'static' of thousands of thoughts, emotions and experiences stored up during life. I'm not sure where you got the idea that zen and budo are unconnected, because the opposite is true. Hope this clears things up, or at least encourages discussion.

Hi all,

Great thread Gen. Actually I did change to seiza for meditation after starting Aikido. But after a while I found that regardless of my physical state, it was the coordination between my mental imagery and breathing that had the main effect on what happened during meditaton. Then it didn't matter whether I was static, moving, in the middle of a party or scuba diving

Peter: At first, I too was kind of confused as to the exact purpose of mukusu (empty the mind, control breathing etc.). To me, it was simply basic relaxation, not really in the meditation realm per se. That is, until I remembered the watchwords of Shodokan (mushin mugamae) and explored further.

Taken to a level which I prefer not explain here, mukusu returns one to the state some chinese call Wuji. The state where all movement-mental, energetic or otherwise has stopped and Yin/Yang, thought/action, stillness/movement etc. become one again. The total release of the ego self.

Mukusu is actually a very powerful meditation I have since realised, but its mastery cannot be achieved in the few minutes we do it in class (same goes for mastery of technique as far as I'm concerned), it must be practiced as often as possible to gain true understanding of the thing. From what you have said, you may have a better grasp of it than you think.

Mukusu, when done both static and moving, places one at the doorstep of takemusu aiki. It begins with Zazen, goes somewhere else, and then returns to Zazen.

0=1=2=Infinity=0 <- this is what mukusu and some other meditations strive to achieve. The return to oneness, which is in fact, nothingness.

Hope this makes sense to some. Have a nice day!
L.C.

Josh Warren wrote: There are strong links between zen and the samurai. They adopted it because of its non-attached, non-materialistic approach that allowed them to face death with indiference, and because it developed joriki, or single pointed concentration, vital for success in martial arts and on the battlefield.

As I understand it - there is quite a bit of urban myth involved here helped no doubt by a very pretty coffee table book. There are several sects of Buhddism of which Zen was only one. If there was one sect of Buddhism that could be said to have a stronger connection to the samurai it is Myinkko Buddhism - not Zen.

There are some articles by Karl Friday specifically addressing the issue - I think one of the can be found in the first Koryu book by Diane Skoss (my copy is not handy).

Ueshiba M. himself went to one of the Shingon sect schools and of course became neo-Shintoist. Not much of a zen connection there.

Points of argument:
face death with indiference the last thing you want to do on the battlefield - the victor may overcome fear of death and injury but indiference usually gets one killed.

and because it developed joriki, or single pointed concentration, vital for success in martial arts and on the battlefield.
In old battles (and most new ones) concentrating on a single point is suicide.

PeterR wrote: As I understand it - there is quite a bit of urban myth involved here helped no doubt by a very pretty coffee table book. If there was one sect of Buddhism that could be said to have a stronger connection to the samurai it is Myinkko Buddhism - not Zen.

KAMI : Excellent, as always, Peter!

I think the major influence on the samurai was Shinto : active, joyful and immersed in life. Of the buddhist sects really the Shingon or Mikkyo were most favored. Zen was a plaything of the idle Edo Samurai, like the Tea Ceremony, the calligraphy, the Ikebana...

PeterR wrote: Points of argument: face death with indiference the last thing you want to do on the battlefield - the victor may overcome fear of death and injury but indiference usually gets one killed.

KAMI : Exactly. In the battlefield, the samurai had little else to do than sheer survival. and he cared about death very much. After all, his top priority was defend the interests of his Lord, and to do that, he was forced to seek victory and to avoid death.

PeterR wrote: and because it developed joriki, or single pointed concentration, vital for success in martial arts and on the battlefield. In old battles (and most new ones) concentrating on a single point is suicide.

KAMI : Agreed. Even that old man Moritaka (also known as Ueshiba) said : "Do not stare into the eyes of your opponent - he may mesmerize you. Do not fix your gaze on his sword - he may intimidate you. Do not focus on your opponent at all - he may absorb your energy."
In this specific case, Aikido is Shinto (or Omoto-Kyo, a neo-shintoist cult) and the inclusion of Zen is a recent grafting.
Best

It sounds to me like we are discussing two things:

1. Is meditation a part of Aikido, which seems like it depends on the dojo and individual. I am not as familiar with all the facets of O Sensei's branch of Shinto as some other religions, but most major religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc) have some form of mysticism (and hence the use of meditation). I would not be surprised to hear that O Sensei practiced meditation, though he was definately not Buddhist... westerners tend to associate meditation only with Zen. On the other hand, O Sensei has been quoted as saying he did not mean for his personal religious beliefs to be a required part of Aikido.

2. Did samurai meditate, and why is it good for a warrior? Some probably did (leave that to more accurate historians among us, but odds are good at least some did). Faith of any kind is good for those who face death as a required part of their job; it is not easy to risk your life for others without some sense of a big picture of life and a grand scheme of things. It does not have to be a belief in an afterlife per se (but that certainly helps many), but at least a belief in the important role of one's service, so if death occurs is it not for nothing. And except for the perhaps 2% of fighters who are antisocial personalities, the taking of another's life takes a very heavy psychological toll, and can drive intelligent men to look deeper inside themselves for answers to life (and death).

I do not know if an empty mind or a focused one is the answer (one can be too focused, we've lost aircraft and pilots that way), but a calm mind is always essential in a fight.

Training with a partner one night in a technique that involved atemi toward the face, he asked if the goal was not to be afraid when I came towards him. I told him I look at it more as not letting that kind of fear be what controls me: one should fear getting hit in the face, or you won't move out of the way, but the calm decision to move to an advantageous position, vs a blind leap away was my goal (wrong though it may be, and I warned him of that as well )

I think I was being far too vague in my use of the term 'zen'. Zen is simply the Japanese reading of a Chinese character taken from and Indian word (dhyana) meaning meditation. Nowadays it is sterotyped (often by very pretty coffee table books) as a specific sect of Buddhism, but its original exponents never considered it as confined to Buddhism (dhyana has been traced back to the Vedic ascetics of ancient India), or accepted that any form of Buddhism was without zen. Modern zen is considered to have originated with the Buddha, but was not passed on by the scholarly study of the Theravadins, instead it was transmitted from teacher to pupil without the ritual and dogma that accumulated around the more orthodox traditions of Buddhism. I am willing to concede that the Zen Buddhist 'sect' may not have had the greatest number of samurai adherents, but I still think that its practises and mindset was part of their culture.

As for 'indifference' to death, I still stand by that statement, in that the samurai outlook was one without any fear of death. As far as I understand it, the (ideal) samurai on the battlefield was driven to survive not by a desire for life, but by a quest for honour and through utter loyalty to their daimyo. The samurai manual Hagakure recommends that samurai meditate daily on their own deaths with grisly imagination, to reduce their fear of it. Also, samurai often did get themselves killed needlessly, through suicidal charges in the name of honour, or in trying to protect their lord. I think the important thing to emphasise here is that they were unconcerned whether they lived or died, as long as they achieved their goals; they would live or die depending on which best served their lord and their honour rather than always choosing life. Of course, it is naive to assume that every samurai was so selfless and courageous, or that all adhered to the same ideology.

By joriki or single-pointed concentration, I do not mean staring at a single point in space, or ignoring what is going on around you, it is not furrowing your brow and straining after something in an act of willpower. It is absolute focus on what is happening now without the distraction of irrelevant thoughts or emotions, such as fear or anger, in which the mind is calm, but not blank. Joriki supposedly expands the awareness of a person and allows them to keep their attention on the present moment and all that is happening within it, rather than excluding all but one object. It has also been called the 'non-abiding mind' ie. the mind is never static, staying on a fixed point, but is objectively aware of everything.

I haven't studied the subject well enough to say conclusively that the samurai practised 'Zen Buddhism' as opposed to any other formal religion, but I think it is very likely that a significant number practised meditation, and that this would have a positive effect on their performance in battle. Nor am I arguing that aikido has Zen Buddhism as its philosophical basis, because I have never heard of any evidence to support this.

ca wrote: And except for the perhaps 2% of fighters who are antisocial personalities, the taking of another's life takes a very heavy psychological toll, and can drive intelligent men to look deeper inside themselves for answers to life (and death).

KAMI : Many years ago, I met a hitman in the "far west" of my country. He was a small, unimpressive kind of guy and we began to drink together. Some time later, we get cozy and I asked him :
"Don't you feel qualms when you kill a man?"
He thought a few moments and then he said :
"Sir, the first man I killed, I felt very bad. I couldn't sleep. But then I thought that if I didn't take the job, someone else would be hired and the victim would be killed anyway. And I needed the money and I don't have any other profession. So I became a hitman and, after some time, I began to slept soundly.
But you should know something, Sir : When I kill a man, I try to kill him fast and with one shot, so he won't suffer".
And I saw that his soul was burn-out like a lamp. As you, Colleen, have said It might take a heavy toll from an intelligent man. A not so intelligent man might behave like this one I'm talking about. Just getting dumber.
That was my personal experience.
Best

L. Camejo wrote: Hi all, ...Taken to a level which I prefer not explain here, mukusu returns one to the state some chinese call Wuji. The state where all movement-mental, energetic or otherwise has stopped and Yin/Yang, thought/action, stillness/movement etc. become one again. The total release of the ego self. Mukusu is actually a very powerful meditation I have since realised, but its mastery cannot be achieved in the few minutes we do it in class (same goes for mastery of technique as far as I'm concerned), it must be practiced as often as possible to gain true understanding of the thing. From what you have said, you may have a better grasp of it than you think...

I'm personally interested in your interpertaion on how mukusu applies to Taosist cosmologics, an area I'm just begining to explore.

If you don't want to post, send me an email.



Peace and Blessings.

Ghost Fox wrote: I'm personally interested in your interpertaion on how mukusu applies to Taosist cosmologics

IMHO, at times it is easier to see the Chinese Taoist roots in Chan/Zen than the Indian Buddhist.

Until again,

Lynn

Shinto is an indigenous religion to Japan. Zen is a particular buddhist "methodology". Shinto was in Japan before Buddhism came there. As with all religions, they blended at some point so it really gets hard to label things. as "Shinto", "Zen", "Budo".

By the way, the Zen Mountain Monastery in New York, has Bill Gleason Sensei teaches there as part of their training methodology. They train the mind, body, and soul which requires you to be well rounded.

Zen mediation in itself, it not complete, and is not all encompassing of Zen.

The end state to all this is happiness, peace, or enlightment. Doesn't matter what you call it or how you get there. If it works for you...do it.

I am interested in philosophy, and have been exploring zen and taoism for a while now. The longer I study these things, and read all those books about them, the more often I find myself thinking "less talk, more practice". So I guess I must be learning something

As for "meditation", the only important things I've always been taught are:

1. Relax

2. Maintain a good posture

3. Breathe correctly

4. Focus primarily on these three, even while doing other things.

5. From there on you should be able to figure the rest out on your own

As Mr. Baker said you can eventually do it whenever and wherever you want, really.

I would say that the purpose of zen meditaion for a warrior would be to have a clear mind, not no-mind.

I think the no-mind thing is just a bad translation.

I have to laugh when people try to meditate and then complain that they can't concentrate. How do you "concentrate" on nothing?

Hear a sound? Make no comment.

More words count less.

yea. No mind really is empty mind or neutral mind.

Musashi talks about it alot. No regard for winning or losing.

Think what it means, to me any how, is to not have any attachment to what might happen.

Sort of like when you are waiting for that shomen to hit you and you start leaning in the direction you know you are supposed to go in. If you had no mind or neutral mind, you wait until the attack is commented.

Any thought about it would just get in the way of your reaction or instincts.

Our paradigms and prejudices are our own worse enemies.

You are right. Less talk, more practice!

Peter Lovatt (Genex) wrote: Hi all just wondering does anybody else meditate regularly? for any reason really for center, religious reasons etc...?

I actually stopped Aikido after I took up meditation. I decided that Aikido wasn't taking me where I wanted to go. The Master I "follow" (for want of a better term) is at the same level in equivalent terms as O'Sensei was, yet is still alive, so no arguments over nonsense like you get in Aikido

since you found aikido have you been sitting in Seiza when you do meditate or am i now being wierd? pete

I look at anything we do daily where we focus our concentration unwaveringly as being "meditation", though possibly most of it is not so useful as Aikido "Moving meditation" or seated meditation.

I found the guidance of a living master of any meditation to be helpful, as they can help you "inside" - you feel they are there helping you, even when they aren't physically there.

My Aikido instructor taught some basic meditation, but at least one of the students who started doing it by himself started turning very nasty (there are dangers in meditation, like anything else, which is why I suggest finding a master) and caused the club alot of trouble.

If we use the Mind-Body-Spirit analogy, at the very least, it is worth practicing letting the mind become quiet. If we take guidance for our actions from the soul, rather than from the mind/ego and body, we gain great benefits in our lives. I believe that good Aikido practice can overcome problems with the ego, though I have seen many more senior students and teachers fall into the ego trap as they go up the ranks.

I've posted some other relevant things to this in the "Aikido Abuse II" thread.

I often go down by the river and spend time in seiza. My rule is simple; I cannot get up until I no longer feel compelled to. Once that edge of nervous energy is gone, I can get up whenever I decide I want to. It's an exercise in patience and self-control, and is important at the heart of my study. Philosophy is the very heart of Aikido, and too many people forget that. Meditation is an incredibly useful tool in life in general and is important to the philosophy of Aikido as well.

By joriki or single-pointed concentration, I do not mean staring at a single point in space, or ignoring what is going on around you, it is not furrowing your brow and straining after something in an act of willpower. It is absolute focus on what is happening now without the distraction of irrelevant thoughts or emotions, such as fear or anger, in which the mind is calm, but not blank. Joriki supposedly expands the awareness of a person and allows them to keep their attention on the present moment and all that is happening within it, rather than excluding all but one object. It has also been called the 'non-abiding mind' ie. the mind is never static, staying on a fixed point, but is objectively aware of everything.

From my own experience playing computer games, if I go after one enemy and others enter the fray, I usually maintain focus and finish what I started on the first enemy, because if I don't, it's more often just going to mean one more gun aimed at me. Take your opponents one at a time, and take them completely, whenever possible, or each one of them maintains a full threat to you, and each one may individually be the ultimate source of your downfall.

Amos Barnett (Currawong) wrote: I actually stopped Aikido after I took up meditation. I decided that Aikido wasn't taking me where I wanted to go...

Aikido isn't for everyone, just as meditation isn't for everyone.

Amos Barnett (Currawong) wrote: ...I found the guidance of a living master of any meditation to be helpful, as they can help you "inside" - you feel they are there helping you, even when they aren't physically there...

It's great if you can find an instructor or teacher you can connect with. But if you can't, you just have to use what is available.

Amos Barnett (Currawong) wrote: ...I look at anything we do daily where we focus our concentration unwaveringly as being "meditation", though possibly most of it is not so useful as Aikido "Moving meditation" or seated meditation...

Because we practice something which we believe to be spiritually uplifting, sometimes we fail to see other ways to practice in our daily lives.