Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-25-2002, 08:52 AM   #1
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

Why are these numbered rather than named?

It might be thought that they somehow immobilize. But if you stop with UKE's arm behind his shoulder in SHIHO NAGE, he's immobilized; if you follow through with IKKYO, he's thrown...

One friend suggested a natural progression, at least from 1-4.

Where do 5-6 fit?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2002, 07:53 PM   #2
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto
Why are these numbered rather than named?

It might be thought that they somehow immobilize. But if you stop with UKE's arm behind his shoulder in SHIHO NAGE, he's immobilized; if you follow through with IKKYO, he's thrown...

One friend suggested a natural progression, at least from 1-4.

Where do 5-6 fit?
Hello Don,

As far as I know, in the old Kobukan the Founder occasionally referred to techniques as ikkajo, nikajo, but these names do not appear in Budo Renshu (1933) or in Budo (1938), though in the former book, the 166 techniques are classified in terms of attacks.

Perhaps some indication can be given of the situation after World War II by two factors, the system used by Gozo Shioda in the Yoshinkai, which was the first postwar organisation to flourish; and Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Aikido", published in Japanese in 1957. As far as I know Shioda used the 'kajo' counting system, plus a description of the techniques. Kisshomaru changed the 'kajo' counting system to 'kyo', which one of my non-aikido Japanese students said he understood as 'training principle', but also kept the descriptions.

So, 1-kyo has the description --ハの'b錬(腕おさえ)= Men no tanren (ude-osae).
2-kyo has 手首の'b錬(小手廻し)= tekubi no tanren (kote mawashi).
3-kyo has 手首肘関節の'b錬(小手ひねり)= tekubi hiji kansetsu no tanren (kote hineri).
4-kyo has 手首の抑え技(手首抑え)= tekubi no osae waza (tekubi osae).

I have always been told by the disciples of the Founder that they themselves thought up the descriptions of the techniques as memory aids.

So I think the numbering, which varies from dojo to dojo for techniques which go beyond 1 to 4, is a matter of tradition as much as of logic.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2002, 08:03 PM   #3
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,075
United_States
Offline
Re: Re: Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury

As far as I know, in the old Kobukan the Founder occasionally referred to techniques as ikkajo, nikajo, but these names do not appear in Budo Renshu (1933) or in Budo (1938), though in the former book, the 166 techniques are classified in terms of attacks.
I note that Noriaki Inoue talked about watching Sokaku Takeda reorganize the techniques by number (and apparently disagreed with him on that point). I don't know how they were organized previously.

The current numbering systems used in Aikido have only a loose relation to the Daito-ryu variation, but it seems to me that they were probably an outgrowth of the earlier system.

Interestingly, the real organization of techniques in both Daito-ryu and Aikido appears to have been done by the respective sons, Tokimune and Kisshomaru. Neither Sokaku nor Morihei seem to have been all that rigorous about that kind of thing.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2002, 02:56 PM   #4
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Re: Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
So, 1-kyo has the description --ハの'b錬(腕おさえ)= Men no tanren (ude-osae).
2-kyo has 手首の'b錬(小手廻し)= tekubi no tanren (kote mawashi).
3-kyo has 手首肘関節の'b錬(小手ひねり)= tekubi hiji kansetsu no tanren (kote hineri).
4-kyo has 手首の抑え技(手首抑え)= tekubi no osae waza (tekubi osae).
Men no tanren (ude-osae).

What does "tanren" mean in this context? And is "men" the same as in shoMEN?

Thanks, Peter.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2002, 06:36 PM   #5
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Re: Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


So, 1-kyo has the description --ハの'b錬(腕おさえ)= Men no tanren (ude-osae).
2-kyo has 手首の'b錬(小手廻し)= tekubi no tanren (kote mawashi).
3-kyo has 手首肘関節の'b錬(小手ひねり)= tekubi hiji kansetsu no tanren (kote hineri).
4-kyo has 手首の抑え技(手首抑え)= tekubi no osae waza (tekubi osae).

Best regards,
Don,

When I wrote my last post, I thought giving Kisshomaru's original text was preferable to any translations, especially on a discussion forum such as this. I had a class, so did not have time to make a translation.

MEN is the same as in shoumen and yokomen and means 'face'. The original meaning of TANREN is tempering steel or metal, and here it means training. Which is probably why Kisshomaru chose the -kyou ending.

Finally, please note the difference in meaning between TEKUBI and KOTE. TEKUBI is the part which connects the UDE (arm) and the 掌 (tenohira, tanagokoro) of the hand; KOTE is the part beteen the TEKUBI and hiji (elbow). I mention this in view of our earlier discussion on kotegaeshi.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2002, 11:56 AM   #6
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Re: Re: Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

[quote]Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
When I wrote my last post, I thought giving Kisshomaru's original text was preferable to any translations, especially on a discussion forum such as this. I had a class, so did not have time to make a translation.

I understand the constraints on your time. It was a stimulating post; thank you.

MEN is the same as in shoumen and yokomen and means 'face'. The original meaning of TANREN is tempering steel or metal, and here it means training. Which is probably why Kisshomaru chose the -kyou ending.

"So, 1-kyo has the description-Men no tanren (ude-osae). "

So we're...forging our faces?! or something like learning to walk through the fire, going right into the attack as IKKYO demands? The action on the forearm being one of locking it up?

"2-kyo has tekubi no tanren (kote mawashi)."

Strengthening the wrist by turning the forearm around?

"3-kyo has tekubi hiji kansetsu no tanren (kote hineri)."

Training the wrist and elbow by locking them up?

"4-kyo has tekubi no osae waza (tekubi osae)."

Locking the wrist?

Sorry to harry you with so many questions. I hadn't heard these descriptions before.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2002, 01:36 AM   #7
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Re: Numbered Techniques (IKKYO, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


So, 1-kyo has the description --ハの'b錬(腕おさえ)= Men no tanren (ude-osae).
2-kyo has 手首の'b錬(小手廻し)= tekubi no tanren (kote mawashi).
3-kyo has 手首肘関節の'b錬(小手ひねり)= tekubi hiji kansetsu no tanren (kote hineri).
4-kyo has 手首の抑え技(手首抑え)= tekubi no osae waza (tekubi osae).

Hello Don,

The descriptions above are section headings which form part of a chapter in Kisshomaru Ueshiba's book. They are actually in the list of contents and are clearly abbreviated in some sense. The sectioon is entitled 基--{固め技 = 'kihon katame waza' and comes after 'kihon nage waza'. 'Katameru' has the basic meaning of to harden, coagulate, arm oneself (even to get married and settle down!) and is his basic term for the arm pinning techniques.

Ueshiba spends some 15 pages giving very detailed descriptions of each of the four '-kyou', with foot diagrams and a few photographs. His uke is Nobuyoshi Tamura. I think these descriptions also apppear in the English version of the book, though they might have been shortened. (I do not have the English version to hand, so I cannot check).

Thus the MEN in 1-kyou is shorthand for shoumen-uchi, yokomen-uchi, katadori, but the explanation focuses on shoumen-uchi. If you remember that 'Budo' (1938) has tori initiating shoumen-uchi ikkyou with a strike to the face, which uke blocks, 'Men no tanren' would mean something like 'full frontal training' (including attacking and defending), and 'ude osae' something like 'controlling the arm by pushing' ('osae' has loads of meanings).

The other shorthand descrriptions would be:

2-kyou:'tekubi no tanren (kote mawashi)' = 'training of the wrist (rotating the upper arm)';

3-kyou: 'tekubi hiji no kansetsu (kote hineri)' = 'training of the wrist / elbow joint (twisting the upper arm)';

4-kyou: 'tekubi no osae waza (tekubi osae)' = 'waza for controlling the wrist (wrist control)'.

There are only 4 kyou-type techniques in Kisshomaru Ueshiba's book. However, this was written in 1957 and the English text "Aikido", which was published later, contains many more techniques.

It is VERY interesting to compare Kisshomaru Ueshiba's Japanese text (and later English version) with the manuals published by the present Doshu. Two have been published with the general title of 規"ヘ合気"ケ = Kihan Aikido, and the first volume (基--{編: Basics), has just been published in English. It is published by Kodansha International and has the title (rather unhappily in my opinion) of "Best Aikido". I think "Standard Aikido" makes better sense of the Japanese and the context in which Doshu is using the term and also allows the reader to make the value judgement, rather than the author. I think that Kisshomaru Ueshiba would never have said that his own aikido was the "best".

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 06-29-2002 at 01:47 AM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2002, 10:54 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Dear Dr. Goldsburry,

Fantastic! Thanks for that post. One of the questions that frequently comes up in black belt tests and gakatsu(sp) classes is "what is the meaning of 1st control?"

Yours is the best answer I've ever seen...I think I need to get a copy of this book.


Ron Tisdale
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido Kelly Allen General 19 11-23-2007 03:24 PM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 05:18 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
Definition of "Dan"? H. Trinh Language 27 02-10-2006 02:54 PM
Randori kocakb General 26 06-20-2004 08:51 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:11 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate