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Old 05-27-2012, 05:00 AM   #26
danielajames
 
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I liked your term "freezing the base". Did you get it from the Indonesian arts? I have seen silat and Kali traditions talk about pocking in a way that causes the opponent to have to "unstick" themselves and find another angle of attack. One system called it "Old Man's hand". So I did what I do and the guri said, "Yes, that's it."
All paths lead to the same root I guess. The difference I have noted is in the manner in which
Tori causes weight to be dropped onto uke's frame. Many try to do this by using muscle to push
with. My experience with this method is that you rely on short leverage and upper body.
But if you use a series of relaxation ( thighs, pelvis, rhomboids, shoulders, humerus, then forearms) long leverage is applied, gravity and momentum aided by your mass and the earth, create great weight without effort or over commitment.

This is how I also deposit weight on the inside seam. Any reflection on this from your experience?

Peace

Chris
Not sure where the term came from, seems to help though and great to here there is validation from other arts to. I tend not to think about dropping the weight but rather where to put the weight. Lately its about heels or toes. Both are a bit different - once on there heels its tougher for uke to recover. The toes get to use the calf muscle to recover balance - usually by storing the energy as potential energy (standing on toes increases the height of the COM - m.g.h and all that).
my leverage is generally applied up the toppling angle to put uke on heels or toes and then down what might be called a seam.

My most interesting aha moment came when as uke i proffered my arm to nage to apply nikko - but at the same time subtly put them on their heels and made the weight equal across both their feet. In this situation they have no base of support toward my direction (being on a pin as it were) and thus cannot apply nikkyo. The feeling is not one of me resisting but they cannot get grounded or 'get in'. Its a very interesting experience and of limited value except as a test of the theory. i tried it on a lot of people (that i trust not to bust my arm) People are mostly disappointed by the explanation afterwards cause its pretty boring - probably i should have undertaken some meditation for some years to achieve it (grad school and hitting the books )

BTW do you have an email for thew books author - i flicked something to his twitter account as the only contact i could find, dojo details seem to be inactive

Anyways returning y'all to the olive munching, ribbon twirling fluffy bunnies and apologies for staying on topic

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:18 AM   #27
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Daniel,

Try bnkdockery@yahoo.com.
I enjoyed your discovery re: Nikkyo. Would you take a look at these Nikkyo reversals and see if what you are saying is present?

They both work the outer seam. But once I get back home, I want to try them with thR inner seam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3Jd...e_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmBWL...e_gdata_player

Another principle I am using can be seen. When I place initial weight on the skeletal structure, I "let up on it ever so lightly just for a second. Ike tends to push back by extending his frame. The motion makes his center rise. Then I float his center just enough to make his structure unstable when I drop the weight a second time. It is similar to the pulsing of tai chi.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:31 PM   #28
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

When I use the word resistance, I am coming from the idea of dynamic resistance. That is to say, a place where your partner is actively working against you. Where your partners are trying to find clever ways around what you are doing to them.

I speak of this kind of resistance because this is what one faces in a martial situation, and where our techniques would be applied. So when I say "resistance" I don't mean that your partner is using lot's of force against you, I mean your partner is actively trying to stop you from doing your technique.

Doing technique to someone who is allowing you to apply it to them is not an area where most Aikidoka are lacking. It's a place of active resistance where most who train in Aikido find weakness in their techniques. If I were you Chris, and felt certain of my techniques, I would ask my students to try and actively "get the better of me". That is to say I would attempt my technique with them trying to stop me, not just in a static or forceful way, but in whatever way they can think of to keep me from applying technique.

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Old 05-27-2012, 05:37 PM   #29
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
When I use the word resistance, I am coming from the idea of dynamic resistance. That is to say, a place where your partner is actively working against you. Where your partners are trying to find clever ways around what you are doing to them.

I speak of this kind of resistance because this is what one faces in a martial situation, and where our techniques would be applied. So when I say "resistance" I don't mean that your partner is using lot's of force against you, I mean your partner is actively trying to stop you from doing your technique.

Doing technique to someone who is allowing you to apply it to them is not an area where most Aikidoka are lacking. It's a place of active resistance where most who train in Aikido find weakness in their techniques. If I were you Chris, and felt certain of my techniques, I would ask my students to try and actively "get the better of me". That is to say I would attempt my technique with them trying to stop me, not just in a static or forceful way, but in whatever way they can think of to keep me from applying technique.
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the response. I know movie cannot always show the intricacies of events - especially regarding small circle technique. In this video I posted earlier, I can promise you that Bill was trying to knock me down. The third attack almost broke my arm because he is so much more solid and youthful.

The exercise we chose here is called 7 star blocking from the Shaolin traditions. It is designed to create base and fajin through the arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1G3A...e_gdata_player

To locate center, connect with it, draw it out of the base and drop projected weight into a throwing spot is indeed quite a mouthful to do in 1/4 second of contact. He is trying to do the same to me. Both of us are trying not to fall.

Look closely at the waves of energy going through my body. It is a natural "Chen" form of Relaxed Tai Chi.

Indeed, I took my skills to the Arnold Challenge in 2009. I was 55 then. The event was Extreme Taiji. All styles of arts invited. Uproot and force the opponent out of the ring or drop him to the ground. National class contenders participated. This was not static stance tai chi. It was more like Sumo. I
have uploaded a photo of me bounding Tim Hwang and can post it once aikiweb approves it.

I took 3rd place. Tim ultimately beat me and a 30 year old Shuai Chao guy took second place. My downfall was when my old body got exhausted in an overtime bout for second place and my form and timing faltered.

Again,

Thanks for your input.

Chris
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Old 05-27-2012, 05:50 PM   #30
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Say Chris,

I remember, I do have that photo posted on my Facebook website.
FB name: Pylin Jigme
http://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/upload...00000604291511
Look for photo #40 under the album "Martial Musings".

Peace and puha

Chris
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:30 PM   #31
danielajames
 
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
When I use the word resistance, I am coming from the idea of dynamic resistance. That is to say, a place where your partner is actively working against you. Where your partners are trying to find clever ways around what you are doing to them.
I think there is a role for both the passive and active resistance processes. The passive to discover the mechanisms to better under stand then and the active as you say to make it practical.

I have found both of great help in improving my aikido, though sometimes when they are not separated and used in the wrong place can help no-one

dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:37 PM   #32
danielajames
 
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post

I enjoyed your discovery re: Nikkyo. Would you take a look at these Nikkyo reversals and see if what you are saying is present?

They both work the outer seam. But once I get back home, I want to try them with thR inner seam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3Jd...e_gdata_player
Yes I'd say this is the same, except taking the subtle unbalancing to full reversal. The literature suggests most (even highly trained) people are unaware of subtle weight transfers. Thus at the very moment that balance is taken 'nage' will be unaware and be perplexed as to why the technique doesn't work. At this point nage may shift and move to try to get nikkyo to come o, uke can easily follow this without force.
i suspect (and without basis) that IS training among other things enhances the perceptions of taking balance and of ones own balance.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmBWL...e_gdata_player

Another principle I am using can be seen. When I place initial weight on the skeletal structure, I "let up on it ever so lightly just for a second. Ike tends to push back by extending his frame. The motion makes his center rise. Then I float his center just enough to make his structure unstable when I drop the weight a second time. It is similar to the pulsing of tai chi.
This is interesting, using the second side of aikido kata, the shape of nikkyo ukemi to setup a throw.

The principle I think as you point out is engaging with the force lines in uke and setting up the toppling angle. (this is the angle you use to tip a fridge on an edge - rather than push against its mass to move it)

best,
dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:24 PM   #33
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
I think there is a role for both the passive and active resistance processes. The passive to discover the mechanisms to better under stand then and the active as you say to make it practical.

I have found both of great help in improving my aikido, though sometimes when they are not separated and used in the wrong place can help no-one

dan
Dan,

That is exactly how I reverse engineer technique. Passive resistance is key. In passive resistance, uke needs to be your guide (an active voice). That is what made Bill so wonderfully unique. He could feel subtle differences and provide models that explained the differences.

The "Mojo" (Just This Aikido, Ohio - Moe Steven's dojo) is run like a circle of collaborators. We say, " There's good juju at the Mojo" Special skills like Bill's arise and are honored and used by the group. That means Bill can critique and even correct Moe and Me. He did so on many occasions. That was some of my best growth, and growth of the tribe. Each attendee saw the humble and public collaboration in holarchy rather than hierarchy.

Then bill could increase resistance, once I had obtained correct sequencing in the technique. Then I was forced to make the technique smaller circled and more subtle.

Notice I banged arms while standing on one foot. That was a big secret. Being on one foot literally guaranteed my success. My leg provided an unstinting pivot point. My irimi was instinctive and was less than 1/2 inch in diameter.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:37 PM   #34
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

[quote=Daniel James;309726]Yes I'd say this is the same, except taking the subtle unbalancing to full reversal. The literature suggests most (even highly trained) people are unaware of subtle weight transfers. Thus at the very moment that balance is taken 'nage' will be unaware and be perplexed as to why the technique doesn't work. At this point nage may shift and move to try to get nikkyo to come o, uke can easily follow this without force.
i suspect (and without basis) that IS training among other things enhances the perceptions of taking balance and of ones own balance.

This is interesting, using the second side of aikido kata, the shape of nikkyo ukemi to setup a throw.

The principle I think as you point out is engaging with the force lines in uke and setting up the toppling angle. (this is the angle you use to tip a fridge on an edge - rather than push against its mass to move it)

If I understand you correctly, I experienced a similar thong. Big traditional techniques simply didn't work against someone with a trained center. And the more I relaxed, it became near impossible to throw me. I invited a USJA Olympic Coach to share my dojo in Escondido back in 2003. I rondoried with a few fine athletes who would visit to train with him. I was delighted to learn how stable I had become.

The big win was this for me, it didn't matter if your initial connection obtained enough kuzushi to drop the uke. What mattered is that you got him defending against the subtle pressure. Anywhere he goes, you can follow it like water moving into the holes. The circles are so small that 360 degrees of throw can occur within an inch circle or less. No need for remembering technique, just follow the bouncing ball and a throw happens. That is how I uprooted the tai chi contestants as well.
best,

Puha

Chris
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:58 PM   #35
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Dan,

The refrigeratior toppling is very similar, only it will not collapse into itself. It's structure remains uncompromised, but it's base is reduced. That is what makes it unstable. Thus Leydyard's ikkyo curve comes into play.

[quote=Daniel James;309726]Yes I'd say this is the same, except taking the subtle unbalancing to full reversal. The literature suggests most (even highly trained) people are unaware of subtle weight transfers. Thus at the very moment that balance is taken 'nage' will be unaware and be perplexed as to why the technique doesn't work. At this point nage may shift and move to try to get nikkyo to come o, uke can easily follow this without force.
i suspect (and without basis) that IS training among other things enhances the perceptions of taking balance and of ones own balance.

This is interesting, using the second side of aikido kata, the shape of nikkyo ukemi to setup a throw.

The principle I think as you point out is engaging with the force lines in uke and setting up the toppling angle. (this is the angle you use to tip a fridge on an edge - rather than push against its mass to move it)

If I understand you correctly, I experienced a similar thong. Big traditional techniques simply didn't work against someone with a trained center. And the more I relaxed, it became near impossible to throw me. I invited a USJA Olympic Coach to share my dojo in Escondido back in 2003. I rondoried with a few fine athletes who would visit to train with him. I was delighted to learn how stable I had become.

The big win was this for me, it didn't matter if your initial connection obtained enough kuzushi to drop the uke. What mattered is that you got him defending against the subtle pressure. Anywhere he goes, you can follow it like water moving into the holes. The circles are so small that 360 degrees of throw can occur within an inch circle or less. No need for remembering technique, just follow the bouncing ball and a throw happens. That is how I uprooted the tai chi contestants as well.
best,

Puha

Chris
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