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Old 05-29-2012, 02:38 PM   #176
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Matt, the problem here is that so many people read this site and gather ideas on which they build "understandings" about aikido and budo in general.

Is it really correct to allow utterly inexperienced "teachers" to put out goofy claims without challenge?

I thought Ellis Amdur's article on Watanabe Sensei, of aikikai, was a good example of pointing out baloney. And if it is okay (even vital) to address the serious error of someone on that level, why should we pretend that all "points of view" stated here are equal?

Graham loves to talk about "real" aikido and "spiritual" aikido day and night, but the one time he had the opportunity to get to the real root of the art, being in the same room with Gozo Shioda, neither he nor his teacher actually stepped onto the mat. From what Graham has written, they never even touched Shioda Sensei to shake his hand. So Graham never experienced the mysterious power described by Robert Mustard and Ellis Amdur in the "It Had to be Felt" thread. Instead, he is informed by contact with "plenty" of people doing "internal stuff." And even though he did meet Mark Freeman, who advised us that Graham is "no Dan Harden," Graham continues to pat himself on the back and play his crumhorn of superior knowledge and understanding, telling us he understands Ueshiba's way far better than any of us who trained with Ueshiba's direct students and uchi deshi.

This forum already serves as an international repository of knowledge of aikido and will, in the future, provide "historical" reference on the art.

It is important for current and future readers to see that people with much experience in aikido and other Japanese martial arts always call baloney on people who speak so confidently about aikido without ever having dipped more than a toe or two in the water.

You say, "we can show each other that we respect the fact that we cannot see into each other's world, even if in fact we're 100% correct about our assumptions," but we're not working with assumptions: Graham has opened his "world" wide and pushed it on us as "real" and "spiritual" and even as "aikido." We didn't go and seek him out to attack. He put on his rasta hat, filmed himself doing what he does and teaching what he teaches and invited comment. He might as well have put his foot in a fire-ant bed and asked what they thought of his hakama. He shouldn't then get upset by the intense response he gets from the ants.

I think of a guy very thoughtfully chewing up one of those plastic displays from the front window of a Japanese restaurant and pretending to appreciate the delicate pleasures of eating sushi.

Best to you.

David
Ahhhh, an expert on me. Nice to see how a person can translate things in their own mind. It's very informative.

Did I 'push a world on you?' Strange view. I don't see even one sentence there as straight. No wonder second hand views are so untrustworthy.

Entering a room with Shioda and missing opportunity? Another false statement.

I give my understanding, only you may call it superior or inferior.

I understand Ueshibas views quite well, I hope you do or will. You seem to have a problem with it.

Mark informed you I walk the talk. That doesn't mean better or worse but merely according to what I say I do. You seem to have a problem with that too.

Try filming yourself and putting it up, could be interesting. When you can take one video and explain technichally and spiritually what was being done at that particular moment then we can talk. Until then you can see what you prefer to see.

I compliment you though on your fertile imagination. Don't forget about my personal invitation to you though, I'm sure one day in the distant future you may venture over here. I promise you'll leave smiling.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:44 PM   #177
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The point I was making was that the two do not have a logical relationship and can very easily stand on their own - and, that each of them has very diverse viewpoints, not that they are necessarily diverse in themselves, but I guess they could be depending on the individual. How's that for straightforward

Greg
That's straightforward my brother. Nice.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:57 PM   #178
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Do you see any "poisoning" -- or, never mind that word, anything problematic -- in your characterization of what Matthew said as "crying"?
As I told Matthew, I was not referring to him, but to the hand-wringers who rush out and wail and rend their garments because people are bullying Graham or whoever makes passive-aggressive shots, then hides behind "spirituality", etc.

It reflects an attitude that is incompatible with budo.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think it's a loaded word, at the very least, and I think it's problematic.
I think it well applies to those who demand an immediate halt to all questionings of the P/A posters and insist that we value their "point of view" (inexperienced and without ability) as highly as those of people with vast experience and proven ability.

It would be nicer of me not to phrase it like that, ha ha!

But it would be nicer of the P/A posters just to shut up and for their defenders, also, not to defend the indefensible.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:03 PM   #179
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Entering a room with Shioda and missing opportunity? Another false statement.
Graham, are you, then, saying that you did get on the mat with Shioda?

You went on and on in another thread about how your Sensei was invited as the Guest of Honor at a seminar taught by Gozo Shioda and he had you accompany him.

But when I asked if you actually trained with Shioda, you repeatedly avoided saying yes or no.

Now, if I had ever had the chance to step onto the mat with Gozo Shioda, I would have done whatever it took to feel his technique even once. And I would have considered it one of the great highlights of almost 40 years of aikido.

So...I had to conclude that you did not take the opportunity to experience one of the indisputable world masters of aiki.

If I'm wrong, then please tell us plainly what it was like to train with him.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:08 PM   #180
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
You, know, of course, that I wasn't referring to you?
I did! Sorry, that was my poor attempt at humor.

Quote:
I don't see the "shut up" as "poisoning" conversations that "could be" good or even better.
I shouldn't have said "poisoning." I just meant that, whether our message is right or wrong, tone of response affects how the message is received and that we then are stuck with dealing with that too. This isn't to say speaking gently to folks is always the best response either. It was an aside I probably shouldn't have entered into.
What I was trying to point to is just the idea that in order for some conversations to "work" we have to adjust our normal responses. If we don't care if the other person accepts our understanding, then it doesn't matter.
Take care,
Matt
p.s. I like Gary's summary of who should and shouldn't go check out folks like Dan. Curiosity certainly got the best of me and I'm glad I got to meet him in person (anyone who can tell me I need work by quoting Pink Floyd is ok in my book). Funds providing, I'll try to check out other folks too.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-29-2012 at 03:19 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:13 PM   #181
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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David Orange wrote: View Post
OK. I think that statement very well underlines your lack of understanding, Graham.

I/P is where the physical and spiritual coincide.

But make no mistake: the physical is the foundation of all spirituality in Japanese arts. For one thing, without the physical, there is no spiritual or mental. So we must begin with the body.

In budo, whatever you say about the "spiritual" has to be expressed through the body or other people's bodies. So "spiritual" depends on the physical. Otherwise, you're just an invisible ghost that cannot effect anything in the "real" world.

Budo is a process of developing the mind and spirit through training the body. Without that physical training, the rest is just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

David
I think your statements there underline our difference of opinion. Does that make mine wrong?

Without spirit the body is dead. Without mind it's usually but a vegetable. So let's not get things backward shall we. They work interdependently. Martial arts start with all three. Those less open to one leaves them with but two.

Budo is more mind and spirit discipline than body I would say. Spiritual does not depend on the physical, ask any yogi.

Spirit rules as it is you. Unifying the three is Aikido.

So once again from my view you have it backwards. There you are, two diverse views.

I demonstrate this fact regularly thank you.

When a person trains the body in movement it gets the body used to it and all the body cell memory. Meanwhile the mind is also getting used to it and meanwhile spirit is feeling and overseeing it.

Once the body is used to all the various movements then when movement is incorrect it's because of the mind or spirit. All corrections then lie with those two. They thus change the body and correct the body not the other way around.

Spirit and mind(unfortunately in some cases) affect all things in your life and in the physical surroundings so hardly anything to do with ghosts. What does your body on it's own affect? Not much at all.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:29 PM   #182
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think your statements there underline our difference of opinion. Does that make mine wrong?
That we differ does not make you wrong. It's the incorrectness of what you say that makes you wrong. ha ha!

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Without spirit the body is dead. Without mind it's usually but a vegetable. So let's not get things backward shall we. They work interdependently. Martial arts start with all three. Those less open to one leaves them with but two.
No, they still have all three, but in budo terms all three are useless.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Budo is more mind and spirit discipline than body I would say. Spiritual does not depend on the physical, ask any yogi.
I know you would say that, but it, again, would be in fundamental error. Budo trains the body to reach the mind and spirit, which cannot be touched in any other way. And ask a yogi? You mean someone who does yoga?

Don't forget that yoga means "the yoke" as in a harness for work. Its ultimate aim might be to affect the mind and spirit, but it depends on a physical method. If the physical method is baloney, so will be the spiritual results. And if they spirit is deluded, of course, the mind and body will be, too.

Show me a yogi without a body, Graham.

In both yoga and budo, and even in Zen, the training is through the body to the mind and if the physical training is fundamentally wrong, there is no way for the mental/spiritual to be correct.

So, then, how was the experience of training with Shioda?

Looking forward to hearing it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:37 PM   #183
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Graham, are you, then, saying that you did get on the mat with Shioda?

You went on and on in another thread about how your Sensei was invited as the Guest of Honor at a seminar taught by Gozo Shioda and he had you accompany him.

But when I asked if you actually trained with Shioda, you repeatedly avoided saying yes or no.

Now, if I had ever had the chance to step onto the mat with Gozo Shioda, I would have done whatever it took to feel his technique even once. And I would have considered it one of the great highlights of almost 40 years of aikido.

So...I had to conclude that you did not take the opportunity to experience one of the indisputable world masters of aiki.

If I'm wrong, then please tell us plainly what it was like to train with him.

Thanks.

David
Yes you are wrong, of course you are. You take what I said and somehow translate it into a negative. Thus you must be adding some other understanding.

Once again you appear to me to lack some perspective on the subject being discussed at the time, you know, perspective. I don't know why. Of course it could be that my communication wasn't clear enough for you.

A seminar was the happening. It was a Yoshinkan Seminar. It had schools from all over England and who knows where else doing demonstrations. Yoshinkan demonstrations.

Now the subject was my teacher and who was he and who knew him etc. I had given another of my recollections on said subject. I had also pointed out before how those same yoshinkan folk had borrowed our dojo before when they had a bit of trouble with a certain Japanese teacher. So I was giving a scene, a relationship my teacher had with that school and it's teachers. They held him in high regard was the point. In fact when they had that certain trouble at that time they came to him for protection.

Now, as a mark of respect they invited him to come 'as a viewing guest' along with many other 'dignitories' and no doubt performers family members.

Now how that equates with him or me (ha, ha, I was just a student) joining in with their demos I don't know.

If I recall afterwards my teacher may have met and exchanged a few niceties with him, no big deal.

Funny thing is that as a student of those times then all I can give is accounts of what happened regarding my teacher and so all I saw was different Aikidoka, teachers from various organizations visiting him, knowing he had no affiliations, yet always coming to him for advice or technical correction in Aikido.

But there again I could of course have taken off my jacket revealing my superman costume and leapt onto the mat uninvited just to get a feel. Ha, ha.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:43 PM   #184
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Yes you are wrong, of course you are. You take what I said and somehow translate it into a negative. Thus you must be adding some other understanding....
(etc., etc., etc., snip)

Oh. I see. Quite a bit different than the way you previously described it. Much different. So different that I understand, now, why you didn't get on the mat with him.

Makes plenty of sense that way.

Would've helped if you'd told it that way the first time, when you made it sound as if your teacher was a kind of "guest of honor" and you and he were up in the limelight.

This version makes much more sense.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:45 PM   #185
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
But there again I could of course have taken off my jacket revealing my superman costume and leapt onto the mat uninvited just to get a feel. Ha, ha.

Peace.G.
I would have (except that I don't wear a Superman costume under my coat).

Well, I wouldn't have leapt out there, but there's no way I would have had Shioda come to town and not done whatever it took to be on the mat with him. In fact, for your teacher not to have done whatever it took is just baffling to me.

Do you wear a hat with your Superman costume, btw?

David

Last edited by David Orange : 05-29-2012 at 03:49 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 03:50 PM   #186
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Dan,

No argument here.

a. Point taken, and I'll remember this for future threads. I'd be curious who else you would put on the list, inside or outside of aikido.
b. I left it out on purpose. It would be disingenuous of me to try to describe something I don't understand (never claimed to).
c. I think it is evident that you're not making up the fact that you have lots of students and lots of positive endorsements from those students.
d. As for myself, I've ruled out total BS (based on c).

As for the pushiness thing, I think this particular forum thread has civil and enjoyable. I've learned something and I'm grateful for the well-written posts.

What I'm still withholding judgement on is the claim that this teaching is integral to "real" aikido (or "O-Sensei" aikido) but that almost nobody can teach it or do it. It just seems a bit far-fetched considering all of the great, dedicated teachers out there.

So let me re-direct the discussion. How do you know if someone is doing aikido without IP? In order to make the claim that almost nobody can teach it or do it, you either need to go around challenging everybody (which I highly doubt is what is going on) or you have to judge them based on videos or interacting with their students.

Doesn't IHTBF apply in both directions?

Thanks again for the interesting discussion.

Conrad
Conrad
May I be the first to say thanks for a response in kind. If you notice we are actually listening to each other and considering and not just harping on points?
Thank you also for being among the small group willing to acknowledge the wisdom of listening to the Assessment of over a thousand teachers who are voting with their feet. As I said, I cannot possibly do justice to how jaded some of these shihan are, and their incredible wealth of experience, who by no stretch of ANYONES imagination is going to be deluded. Talk about hard cases!! And many were actually against me...before becoming my students. Trust me...those were NOT fun days. Here is a quote from a Shihan at the start of a seminar. We have never met.
Me "Any questions before we begin?"
Shihan "Yes." Who the hell are you, what is this bullshit, and why should I care."
That....was the start of a seminar.
Ya....I deluded him
He is an avid and staunch supporter who has trained with me for years now and is teaching it.

The work and was it Ueshiba's work?
So here we have a body of work that people don't know.
They were unable to explain it anywhere I have read, and they were unable to translate it.
That work?
Is a staple in Koryu, Daito ryu and the Internal Chinese arts. In fact in many places he was actually quoting them.
Here is a question.
If everyone knows this Conrad? Why could they not explain it, or translate it or do it? It remained a mystery until early last year when Chris Li ( another student of mine) started to re-read Ueshiba's words in their original Japanese (mind you, I never read them before) And there he was, all but quiting me, and many other established internal principles.

You asked how we know it's not there?
Most telling
They cannot explain or teach it.
Next, it is the way they move. A connected body actually moves and functions different, and as it moves against resistance certain things happen, others do NOT happen. Knowing what those things are, can appear to be like speaking in code. However, as we teach people, they in turn go back and freak out watching so many of the greats and seeing all the failures as well. The funniest one was an extremely high level Aikikai shihan who is in charge of countries...who said to me "Oh my God ...my students are all a mess!! Why did't I see it? Its my faults. I have to fix everyone!"
Others stand there stunned at what it feels like and they simply want to change.

Again please understand that no one...least of all me, is claiming proprietary knowledge. Yes we each have our own training regimens and ways to get people to do it. SOme of those gel better with some people, others like other methods. But no one...NO ONE..is all full of themselves over this work. Instead we are all fans of it. I may be father along the path than many, but there is a crowd up ahead of me!!

The real trick is finding someone who can show you methods that work and has students that have power. Then you know you may be getting involved in a method moving you forward. There are certain teachers out there claiming to teach this stuff and they have no language for it, and no real models to follow. How is that really going to help?
I have to go train
More later
Dan
 
Old 05-29-2012, 04:05 PM   #187
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I did! Sorry, that was my poor attempt at humor.

I shouldn't have said "poisoning." I just meant that, whether our message is right or wrong, tone of response affects how the message is received and that we then are stuck with dealing with that too. This isn't to say speaking gently to folks is always the best response either. It was an aside I probably shouldn't have entered into.
What I was trying to point to is just the idea that in order for some conversations to "work" we have to adjust our normal responses. If we don't care if the other person accepts our understanding, then it doesn't matter.
Take care,
Matt.
Matt
There are many ways to tell someone they are full of it....and I read that in to many of the comments here from those who want no part of Dan or what he is providing. Face to face when talking to someone you can tell from the tone, from body language, facial expression and the like what is real and what is not. On here, like other sites on the internet, you are not face to face......but you can tell by the choice of words, how they are put together, and such....what the true meanings are..... What I perceive in many is ...."you don't know what you are talking about........I know what I am doing and I learned it directly from my teacher who is........I am already doing this...you can't teach me anything I don't already know.....I am good at this so....what do I need you for........" Mostly for me this kind of responses mean something more like "..I have placed so much into what I am now.....I can't afford to change directions now...." These are not rude and unfriendly comments to you? Isn't this approach unacceptable also?

How I cam to this view, I am still working and received around 130 work related email last week. This is normal. While many of them are just informational, a large number require responses, some put you in the middle of situations...all of that. You learn to understand what is mean as well as what is said...and you learn to be very careful on how you respond...or start email strings

As for my comments about not living long enough to get very good at what Dan is offering..... I'll be 70 in about a month...I see this, knowing what little I know now...as a long term effort.....10, 15, 20 years.... add in the other components....along with living life in general.....puts a premium on your time. And I am trying to work in other stuff from another very close friend of mine who is on a level with Dan in his own way. I am happy with my journey so far, but know there is more that can be added..

The lost for me with these folks is the lost in time.......what if they discover 20 years from now that maybe there was something to all of this IP stuff...wow...they have lost 20 years...... If you check it out and diceide it is not for you...at least you know that you didn't miss the opportunity.....

Gary
 
Old 05-29-2012, 04:21 PM   #188
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, I wouldn't have leapt out there, but there's no way I would have had Shioda come to town and not done whatever it took to be on the mat with him. In fact, for your teacher not to have done whatever it took is just baffling to me.

Do you wear a hat with your Superman costume, btw?

David
David
In 1983 Shioda came to the Norwalk area here near where I live. He was sponsored by either a Japanese American organization or the associated Kendo/Aikido club.. He came to conduct a small class at the location where the combined Kendo and Aikido club worked out.. Our dojo had friends in both groups and we were invited over. There were no more than about 30 individuals in the small training area and we all got hands on him. First impression....so small......second...what a gentleman he was, both in his manner and his demonstrating on us locals. He had 2 young guys with him and he tossed them around quite easily.

As for my feeling of him...of course I was not going to test him.....but he did tenchi nage on me...was under me to start with of course and I didn't feel the movement until I was already going backwards. He is one of the those I said previously that I had felt something in who had since passed on.

I think I still have the flyer signed by one of his deshi...if I can find it I will post it.

Gary
 
Old 05-29-2012, 04:27 PM   #189
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I'll cut to the chase here shall I.

Zen. I have informed how I started Aikido and it was called Zen Shin Kan Aikido. Emphasis....spirit.

Most conducive method.....Ki Aikido...shin shin toitsu. Overall purpose.....Harmony. Overall policy.......Effectiveness.

So, similar to Ki Aikido with emphasis on immovable mind and effectiveness.

Everything I have heard Dan say or any one else to do with I/P with regards to 'stopping' or showing how ineffective much Aikido is against it I witnessed as standard procedure by my teacher years ago. Much to my bemusement at the time.

I learned that doing such things eventually is easy hence personally not being impressed by such stories or even realities. Note I said personally. I do not consider it a thing to shout about and so this is the first time I've said it.

Being somewhat of a specialist therefor in the spiritual side and much to my amazement it seems effective spiritual side don't exist in manys minds or experience I choose to inform people that is is and can be so don't give up on your path.

Finding the ways of Aikido as a perfect vehicle for effective spiritual pursuit then for me there is plenty to say.

Thus there are many things I don't say for by listening to the responses of those who compare my way without any reality on it cannot but seem strange or amusing to me. I translate. I translate spiritual into mental and physical actions and in this way those who have experienced what I do find the difference and how effective and powerful spiritual concepts actually are.

You cannot get more humble than complete non-resistance thus humility in action and the surprise of how powerful that is. You cannot get more loving than compassion and universal or unconditional love. Thus the surprise of just how effective and powerful they are too. All such things can be demonstrated through the vehicle of Aikido because of the great insight of Ueshiba. A great discipline, the ultimate budo.

Where others may call out to a student 'fight' I would be calling out something else, to great effect.

My way is spiritual emphasis and it's very good and effective and life changing. Hope your way is as well.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 04:29 PM   #190
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I would have (except that I don't wear a Superman costume under my coat).

Well, I wouldn't have leapt out there, but there's no way I would have had Shioda come to town and not done whatever it took to be on the mat with him. In fact, for your teacher not to have done whatever it took is just baffling to me.

Do you wear a hat with your Superman costume, btw?

David
You have to reach a certain level first.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 04:34 PM   #191
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Yikes! It is at times like this that I'm glad I'm a simple and humble engineer . I might not have the philosophical chops or prose (or the time/inclination) to engage in the type of revolving discussions so common here, but one thing I'm more prone to do is apply the good ol' Scientific Method to a problem:

1. Start with a question. For example, "How does this work?", or "am I doing what I think I am doing?"
2. Gather data. Read, research, go out, meet people, ask questions, etc. Aikiweb and Aiki News can be very helpful tools.
3. Formulate a hypothesis. For example, "I already do that", or "Damn, I suck".
4. Experiment. Test your hypothesis. This is the really fun part. Be honest, no "cherry picking" of facts!
5. Conclusion/Theory. You might not like it, but that's beside the point. Be honest and mature about it.
6. Oh wait, somebody has a better experiment and theory based on more/better data, and it disproves your theory? Well, it is your due diligence (ahem) to either change your theory or disprove theirs.

Done. You might have to repeat the process or reformulate some steps, but hopefully you have now taken a step towards progress. Less fence-sitting (which seems to be the permanent state of some people here), endless philosophizing, arguing for the sake of arguing, or potentially leading others astray in the process (a terrible legacy if you ask me). Less poetic license, rhetoric, or free interpretation of facts. Less personal issues, politics, delusions, or ego getting in the way of research. Heck if it wasn't for this line of thinking we'd still be sitting in a cave mulling about whether rocks were edible, or we wouldn't have Aikido considering O Sensei was a voracious scholar and researcher (imagine him dwelling in a state of complacency, never going out to meet Takeda).

I think the same process (even though it's empirically bound) can be applied to matters related to spirituality in Aikido. For example I might ask, can the spiritual side of Aikido be its own exclusive thing? Or, does it have value on its own? My current position is that if you disassociate the martial context from what O Sensei said, most of his words are nothing but a bunch of platitudes -- things that are neither original or have particular universal value. Most of his doka and other words carry correct meaning only when associated with the model of Budo that he studied and trained and made him stand out as a Budoka.

5-6 easy steps, people. Guaranteed to save you precious time. Try it!

Last edited by Gerardo Torres : 05-29-2012 at 04:37 PM.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 05:04 PM   #192
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Folks
This has gone on way to long........

REMEMBER....... you can replace Dan's name with number of others and get a start at this......

THOUGH in the end, for those of you that won't come and take a chance....but continue to carp.......I will refer to a quote from an old movie "Gone With the Wind"

Rhett Butler: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
[Rhett walks off into the fog]

have a good day......
Gary
That was Eloquent Gary. Moe and I are biting at the bit to fly out and train with Dan when he comes to Orange county. Moe needs to know early so he can plan for it. How can we get approval to get enrolled?

Chris
 
Old 05-29-2012, 05:34 PM   #193
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Yikes! It is at times like this that I'm glad I'm a simple and humble engineer . I might not have the philosophical chops or prose (or the time/inclination) to engage in the type of revolving discussions so common here, but one thing I'm more prone to do is apply the good ol' Scientific Method to a problem:

1. Start with a question. For example, "How does this work?", or "am I doing what I think I am doing?"
2. Gather data. Read, research, go out, meet people, ask questions, etc. Aikiweb and Aiki News can be very helpful tools.
3. Formulate a hypothesis. For example, "I already do that", or "Damn, I suck".
4. Experiment. Test your hypothesis. This is the really fun part. Be honest, no "cherry picking" of facts!
5. Conclusion/Theory. You might not like it, but that's beside the point. Be honest and mature about it.
6. Oh wait, somebody has a better experiment and theory based on more/better data, and it disproves your theory? Well, it is your due diligence (ahem) to either change your theory or disprove theirs.

Done. You might have to repeat the process or reformulate some steps, but hopefully you have now taken a step towards progress. Less fence-sitting (which seems to be the permanent state of some people here), endless philosophizing, arguing for the sake of arguing, or potentially leading others astray in the process (a terrible legacy if you ask me). Less poetic license, rhetoric, or free interpretation of facts. Less personal issues, politics, delusions, or ego getting in the way of research. Heck if it wasn't for this line of thinking we'd still be sitting in a cave mulling about whether rocks were edible, or we wouldn't have Aikido considering O Sensei was a voracious scholar and researcher (imagine him dwelling in a state of complacency, never going out to meet Takeda).

I think the same process (even though it's empirically bound) can be applied to matters related to spirituality in Aikido. For example I might ask, can the spiritual side of Aikido be its own exclusive thing? Or, does it have value on its own? My current position is that if you disassociate the martial context from what O Sensei said, most of his words are nothing but a bunch of platitudes -- things that are neither original or have particular universal value. Most of his doka and other words carry correct meaning only when associated with the model of Budo that he studied and trained and made him stand out as a Budoka.

5-6 easy steps, people. Guaranteed to save you precious time. Try it!
So that's empirical.....aha. 5-6 easy steps. Gerardo, that's good. That's what I expect most dedicated folk do.

You can indeed apply it to the spiritual, that's my whole point. So as a bit of information for you, yes you can. Then you find there are no platitudes. Only if you want to of course.

Then you also find 'oh my God, Ueshiba was being quite literal'....

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 05:57 PM   #194
Conrad Gus
 
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Talking Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Conrad
May I be the first to say thanks for a response in kind. If you notice we are actually listening to each other and considering and not just harping on points?
Thank you also for being among the small group willing to acknowledge the wisdom of listening to the Assessment of over a thousand teachers who are voting with their feet. As I said, I cannot possibly do justice to how jaded some of these shihan are, and their incredible wealth of experience, who by no stretch of ANYONES imagination is going to be deluded. Talk about hard cases!! And many were actually against me...before becoming my students. Trust me...those were NOT fun days. Here is a quote from a Shihan at the start of a seminar. We have never met.
Me "Any questions before we begin?"
Shihan "Yes." Who the hell are you, what is this bullshit, and why should I care."
That....was the start of a seminar.
Ya....I deluded him
He is an avid and staunch supporter who has trained with me for years now and is teaching it.

The work and was it Ueshiba's work?
So here we have a body of work that people don't know.
They were unable to explain it anywhere I have read, and they were unable to translate it.
That work?
Is a staple in Koryu, Daito ryu and the Internal Chinese arts. In fact in many places he was actually quoting them.
Here is a question.
If everyone knows this Conrad? Why could they not explain it, or translate it or do it? It remained a mystery until early last year when Chris Li ( another student of mine) started to re-read Ueshiba's words in their original Japanese (mind you, I never read them before) And there he was, all but quiting me, and many other established internal principles.

You asked how we know it's not there?
Most telling
They cannot explain or teach it.
Next, it is the way they move. A connected body actually moves and functions different, and as it moves against resistance certain things happen, others do NOT happen. Knowing what those things are, can appear to be like speaking in code. However, as we teach people, they in turn go back and freak out watching so many of the greats and seeing all the failures as well. The funniest one was an extremely high level Aikikai shihan who is in charge of countries...who said to me "Oh my God ...my students are all a mess!! Why did't I see it? Its my faults. I have to fix everyone!"
Others stand there stunned at what it feels like and they simply want to change.

Again please understand that no one...least of all me, is claiming proprietary knowledge. Yes we each have our own training regimens and ways to get people to do it. SOme of those gel better with some people, others like other methods. But no one...NO ONE..is all full of themselves over this work. Instead we are all fans of it. I may be father along the path than many, but there is a crowd up ahead of me!!

The real trick is finding someone who can show you methods that work and has students that have power. Then you know you may be getting involved in a method moving you forward. There are certain teachers out there claiming to teach this stuff and they have no language for it, and no real models to follow. How is that really going to help?
I have to go train
More later
Dan
Dan,

I'm guessing you won't reveal the names of these shihans out of respect for their privacy, but I have to admit these are good stories and I'm curious about the identities!

It seems like you are saying you can tell by watching someone (youtube or whatever) that they are doing technique without IP. I can understand how that could work. If a person has felt it and can do it then they might know how to recognize the lack of it, even if it is subtle.

So in theory, you might not be able to teach IP with a video (reasonable enough), but you could comment on an existing video of someone and explain how you know that the person is not using IP. That would be interesting to me because I could start to conceptualize what you are talking about, at least in a rough way. I have to admit that the chinese theory-based explanations are not comprehensible to someone without a reference point.

Of course, it wouldn't be very gracious to grab random videos of top shihans and tear them apart in public. It would have to be on a voluntary basis. Now where is that video of my last test . . . On second thought, I'll take the critique in private some day.

You know what would be really useful? A video of someone doing the same technique with IP and without IP. A person could observe the differences and get some idea of where they come from. Is it possible to do the same exact technique with and without IP? I'm guessing adding IP would also change the technique. Anyway, I'm talking about stuff I don't understand, so I'll shut up.

Cheers,

Conrad
 
Old 05-29-2012, 06:01 PM   #195
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
That was Eloquent Gary. Moe and I are biting at the bit to fly out and train with Dan when he comes to Orange county. Moe needs to know early so he can plan for it. How can we get approval to get enrolled?

Chris
Chris
Contact Dan directly through the email links he lists in the Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions were it is suggested that inquiries be sent....which should be:

dojoseminars@gmail.com

Give it a shot.....

Gary
 
Old 05-29-2012, 06:06 PM   #196
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
What is your agenda, Graham?

It seems you want to be the standard bearer for an art in which you have pretty much zilch for experience.

If not that, then what?

Best to you, bud

David
Missed this gem. Good first question though. Shame about the following statement.

A few agendas I would say as I have already said, everyone has them.

One would be to seek and find others views and how they see things aikido related.

One would be to share with others of similar reality to mine. (not so easy, ha, ha.)

One would be to promote and encourage those who inherently feel or believe that Aikido is and can be a spiritual path.

As it turns out one comes to be to show that no matter how real the spiritual aspects are to you you will get plenty trying to put you down so don't worry about it. 'Forgive them they know not what they say' ha, ha.'

One is to promote the idea that Aikido is indeed all about harmonious action and effective results without harm or damage. A budo of love.

There's a few for you.

Standard bearer?.....ha, ha. Very quaint. I don't think or act in such terms.

Peace G.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 06:07 PM   #197
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Dan,

You know what would be really useful? A video of someone doing the same technique with IP and without IP. A person could observe the differences and get some idea of where they come from. Is it possible to do the same exact technique with and without IP? I'm guessing adding IP would also change the technique. Anyway, I'm talking about stuff I don't understand, so I'll shut up.

Cheers,

Conrad
Conrad
Dan is in the Seattle area 3 or four times a year...he has been at George Ledyeard's dojo any number of times. Just go down and take part....saves the video production and crew costs......and it is real time with you feeling the differences.
Gary.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 06:25 PM   #198
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
Contact Dan directly through the email links he lists in the Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions were it is suggested that inquiries be sent....which should be:

dojoseminars@gmail.com

Give it a shot.....

Gary
Thanks Gary.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 06:45 PM   #199
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Gary,
I agree. Very good points. I'm relatively new to to the game, but I can see incremental progress and am hopeful for the future.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-29-2012, 06:48 PM   #200
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Talking to the idea of agendas

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

One would be to share with others of similar reality to mine. (not so easy, ha, ha.)

One would be to promote and encourage those who inherently feel or believe that Aikido is and can be a spiritual path.
Graham I think you are going to have to create your own others and those.....or find another route to them.

Quote:
As it turns out one comes to be to show that no matter how real the spiritual aspects are to you you will get plenty trying to put you down so don't worry about it. 'Forgive them they know not what they say' ha, ha.'
Graham This sounds to me with the way it is written like (again) yours is the true understanding...and to forgive us because we are lost....in the wilderness.....can you see how this might seen by others?

Quote:
One is to promote the idea that Aikido is indeed all about harmonious action and effective results without harm or damage. A budo of love.
Graham I think the difference here is with the results ..most of us would like to see the ending without harm or damage......I just don't think this is possible every time.

Quote:
Standard bearer?.....ha, ha. Very quaint. I don't think or act in such terms.
Graham I think that I have called you the avatar ....as for being the standard bearer......to me it looks like you have been placed in this position by many of those who step up to defend you. You know how truth goes...perceived and actual.....actual always plays catchup to perceived,

Quote:
Peace G
.

and peace be with you. Good luck on your journey and as one old movie cowboy used to say....."happy Trails"

Gary
 

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