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Old 05-28-2012, 11:52 AM   #76
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm not arguing against those principles at all. I simply stated that I disagreed with a statement you made. And disagreeing is certainly a valid principle of dialogue, isn't it?

Anyway, this is kind of pointless - what's your argument, anyway?

Best,

Chris
You lost the thread?

Or do you expect me to repeat the argumentation.

Tom
 
Old 05-28-2012, 12:07 PM   #77
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Dan,

I could not agree with you more. It applies just as much to my own work and teachings, but you are probably better looking then me.

But it does not change the fact that Chris' counterargument is and stays invalid!

Tom
Oh good God...don't look at my pictures!!!
I wish I had a stand in!!
I actually see both points. But I am steering clear and more or less trying to focus on the bigger picture!
Dan
 
Old 05-28-2012, 12:30 PM   #78
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have no response. I stopped doing mushrooms and peyote when I was a young musician.
My IP is not my "version." It is established and old. Westerners like to push "their version" so they can validate their half-assed corruption of just about anything they touch and call it equal.

Today I focus on things that are beyond doubt and contestation. It is dividing, But truth often is.
Dan
As I practice shamanism along the lines of Will Taegel, Jim Garrison and a host of other recognized professors with credible backgrounds at Wisdom University, I guess I have not limited myself in such a way. Others may experience such practice as going down a rabbit hole, and that is their rightZ

Puha

Chris
 
Old 05-28-2012, 12:34 PM   #79
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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There are other well known models for how real IP can cross over and inform and feel like spiritual concepts and how it feels in the body and the way it is trained was indeed tied to religious practices.
However, to say it is religious simply shows ignorance of the subject.
Chanting is a good example. Some may deeply believe that chanting certain mudras gave them power, when in reality it was using certain vowel sounds to merely change pressure. Next? What to do with that pressure.
Then you can add certain feelings that come when projecting-particularly with long weapons, and how it can form a heady rush.
We can then add Moving energy work in the body, which is a whole other ball game.

But we then go back to "talking about it" And thinking you "got it" in relation to IP, when in reality there is so much more. There are lots of Japanese and Western Shihan running around with pieces of the puzzle who would be devestated by someone more fully developed by doing it, rather than talking about it.

The truly wonderful aspect about this work is that you cannot B.S. your way out of it (well except on the internet). In person, you either got it or you don't, and you will be found out in all but an instant. Hence, why most will avoid those who either do have it...or know what it is supposed to feel like in someone who does.
Dan
Hi Dan,
Great points, thank you! This resonates heavily with where my mind is lately, particularly as it relates to getting out there and interacting as the basis for practice. Simple idea but some of us need to remember it more (raises hand). The physical is very much the spiritual for me...the omote and ura of reality maybe. I've been thinking about something the doshu said a lot the last couple days. Essentially his view seems to be that it doesn't matter so much what we're practicing as long as we're sincerely practicing and have our example of that practice. We can agree or disagree on the nature of the practice ("[enlightenment or delusion who can say...]") but without sharing, we can't determine if the other guy has something we could or should learn. It's (partly, at the least) about producing something tangible.
In Shinto there is the idea of infinite and restless movement (kannagara, if I'm not mistaken); everything is basically in a constant state of movement and interaction. The study of Aikido and Shinto is learning how to incorporate a cohesive quality to those movements, both large and very small, with the purpose of fostering life power...of learning to harmonize with nature to attain a greater state of existance, for ourselves, for our families, our neighborhoods, our countries, our planet...and outward, as circumstances allow.
This is the essence of my spirituality and the fundemental reason I've remained so attracted to Aikido as a medium for fostering it.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-28-2012, 12:44 PM   #80
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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As I practice shamanism along the lines of Will Taegel, Jim Garrison and a host of other recognized professors with credible backgrounds at Wisdom University, I guess I have not limited myself in such a way. Others may experience such practice as going down a rabbit hole, and that is their rightZ

Puha

Chris
Results Chris...results.
We are talking about internal power. I know and have trained with several people of that persuasion who have no power at all. Were people like this to "have power" one can only ask why their martial arts look like every other Tom, Dick and Harry. I see them throw and they go up on their toes, I see them making big moves that hardly effect anyone...and with all this good "shaministic power" they talk about...Okomoto and Angier....and do VERY poor imitations, mimicing their movements. I find it all very peculiar.
Results Chris...results.
In lue of that ...dialogue.....I suppose.

I like to think of authentic and true purpose that is congruent and solid, regardless of form or venue; balls to bone. And there are men like that. They are unusual and there is no doubt nor any dialogue necessary.
Dan
 
Old 05-28-2012, 12:52 PM   #81
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hi Dan,
Great points, thank you! This resonates heavily with where my mind is lately, particularly as it relates to getting out there and interacting as the basis for practice. Simple idea but some of us need to remember it more (raises hand). The physical is very much the spiritual for me...the omote and ura of reality maybe. I've been thinking about something the doshu said a lot the last couple days. Essentially his view seems to be that it doesn't matter so much what we're practicing as long as we're sincerely practicing and have our example of that practice. We can agree or disagree on the nature of the practice ("[enlightenment or delusion who can say...]") but without sharing, we can't determine if the other guy has something we could or should learn. It's (partly, at the least) about producing something tangible.
In Shinto there is the idea of infinite and restless movement (kannagara, if I'm not mistaken); everything is basically in a constant state of movement and interaction. The study of Aikido and Shinto is learning how to incorporate a cohesive quality to those movements, both large and very small, with the purpose of fostering life power...of learning to harmonize with nature to attain a greater state of existance, for ourselves, for our families, our neighborhoods, our countries, our planet...and outward, as circumstances allow.
This is the essence of my spirituality and the fundemental reason I've remained so attracted to Aikido as a medium for fostering it.
Take care,
Matt
Hi Mat
I guess we can discuss energy being random, unidirectional and less functional, or a more pure form of constant motion that leaves one stable and supported. It is NOT all the same. Nor is the spiritual path to mind and body in creating power.
I will never agree with Doshu with "it doesn't matter so much what we're practicing as long as we're sincerely practicing[/b] model. It's so neutral and useless....by itself it has lead to more wasted decades than anything I can think of.
Dan
 
Old 05-28-2012, 01:08 PM   #82
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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That makes sense Tom, truly. But... provided we leave out conclusions.
Dialoguing about those well known training models touches on triggers for many who have been asked for decades to believe and keep training and they will "get it," and then conversely being told they weren't thinking...all while having a verbal and physical dialogue with teachers who just could not, or would not.....teach.
Hence, some of the impatiance to just engage in even more dialogue with those who;
  • Don't have it
  • Don't really know how to get it
  • Doubt those who actually do...
  • And want to dialogue with them about their own ideas that fail time and time again.
  • Or tell them to go shout on a street corner for all they care.

For many here that sort of dialogue is BTDT. There is a growing group of Aikido teachers who are doing many of training models Ueshiba outlined. And...surprise surprise......it works in the real world. And up against that...their method?
Does not.
Testing and conclusions is very dividing...hence people wanting to just dialogue...on the net.
Dan
Dan,
I don't disagree with you here. I have mentioned Plato's allegory of the cave often enough. Some people are still in shackles in the dark, and only a few arrive in the light. Like O Sensei. The people in the dark will have a hard time accepting the person who has been in the light, they might even, as Plato puts it, ridicule or hurt him. And only slowly, maybe even only one at the time others will follow towards the light. While at the same time others still refuse to consider it.

In Plato's words the person who came to the light experienced episteme, reality or sophia, wisdom. While the others in the dark kept to their dogma (opinions).
It is not really possible to have a dialogue with someone who just holds on to opinions and refuses to be open minded to other possibilities.

So I can imagine a certain impatience with people that want to discuss about things that for you are already passed stations.

Perhaps I show the same impatience myself.
I have studied Buddhism and Taoism since a young age. It lead me towards Aikido and a study in philosophy at the university. When I started with Aikido many of the concepts were not new to me. But when I was confronted with O Sensei's words I had difficulty in understanding a lot of what he was saying. Fortunately I found a Shinto teacher who could explain the concepts. And I realized that Aikikai Aikido was only teaching basic techniques and not really or fully what O Sensei had been teaching. That started my search.
And I came across a lot of people in the Aikido world who did not understand or liked what I was looking for. And a few who were on the same search.

This was more then thirty years ago.
Imagine my surprise to come across your name here on Aikiweb and finding out that you were claiming to be the only one that had researched this and understood this.
Imagine my surprise to come across the website of Chris Li on the concepts of O Sensei - presenting this as if he had discovered something completely new.
Imagine my surprise when he, based on his fast expertise in the secrets of Aiki dismissed all the teachers that he had seen in Japan. Including the ones that could have told him more about O Sensei and could have introduced him to places and people that were so familiar to O Sensei. It would have clarified a lot for him as it has done for me.
Imagine my surprise when it appeared shear impossible to have a dialogue with him, and seeing him dismiss every thinkable argument without giving a valid counter argument.

While I agree that it is not always possible to have a real dialogue with opinionated people I do also think that we should make an effort to genuinely communicate.
In fact, if someone really understands Aiki, then noblesse oblige, that person has even a bigger responsibility to communicate. You do realize that the word dialogue has the same meaning as Aiki?

Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom
 
Old 05-28-2012, 01:30 PM   #83
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hi Mat
I guess we can discuss energy being random, unidirectional and less functional, or a more pure form of constant motion that leaves one stable and supported. It is NOT all the same. Nor is the spiritual path to mind and body in creating power.
I will never agree with Doshu with "it doesn't matter so much what we're practicing as long as we're sincerely practicing[/b] model. It's so neutral and useless....by itself it has lead to more wasted decades than anything I can think of.
Dan
That's my understanding: The goal is to take the essentially random, single-dimensional movements and make them cohesive and omni-directional. Through practice the goal is to take parts and make them more cohesive members of the whole. This is where it helps to go out and experience other methods, to find new things to consciously add to our movements.
Regarding Doshu's remarks though: I agree the part that only talks about being sincere is, by itself, not enough, but I took his meaning to include the necessity for interaction...for going out and directly sampling each others' training. I took it to mean, if we're sincere in our efforts to learn, we should feel what other people are doing; we can then take it or leave it based on whatever our personal values are.
It made me think of what you're doing, going out and sharing your training with a wide variety of people and methods of training; of your past comments about Ueshiba being a kind of MMA guy.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-28-2012, 01:30 PM   #84
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Imagine my surprise to come across your name here on Aikiweb and finding out that you were claiming to be the only one that had researched this and understood this.
Imagine my surprise to come across the website of Chris Li on the concepts of O Sensei - presenting this as if he had discovered something completely new.
Imagine my surprise when he, based on his fast expertise in the secrets of Aiki dismissed all the teachers that he had seen in Japan. Including the ones that could have told him more about O Sensei and could have introduced him to places and people that were so familiar to O Sensei. It would have clarified a lot for him as it has done for me.
Imagine my surprise when it appeared shear impossible to have a dialogue with him, and seeing him dismiss every thinkable argument without giving a valid counter argument.
Dan's been talking about this stuff for more than 15 years in various places, starting back on the old Aikido-L mailing list.

Obviously, if Ueshiba and Takeda (and others) were doing it than this stuff is not new - but it is new to many people, and that is how I've presented it.

I've been in Aikido almost as long as you have - I've been to and met the places and people that were familiar to Ueshiba. I haven't made any judgements as to your experience, you ought not to make any judgements as to mine.

I've asked you several times for clarifications of statements that you made and received no answer - nothing to dismiss there...

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-28-2012, 01:59 PM   #85
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Well, lots of interesting points made. As far as I can see they all go to show that spiritual is different to I/P.

Physical, I/P, Spiritual. Three different things.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-28-2012, 02:33 PM   #86
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Results Chris...results.
We are talking about internal power. I know and have trained with several people of that persuasion who have no power at all. Were people like this to "have power" one can only ask why their martial arts look like every other Tom, Dick and Harry. I see them throw and they go up on their toes, I see them making big moves that hardly effect anyone...and with all this good "shaministic power" they talk about...Okomoto and Angier....and do VERY poor imitations, mimicing their movements. I find it all very peculiar.
Results Chris...results.
In lue of that ...dialogue.....I suppose.

I like to think of authentic and true purpose that is congruent and solid, regardless of form or venue; balls to bone. And there are men like that. They are unusual and there is no doubt nor any dialogue necessary.
Dan
Hal's dialogue was on the mats. His results are a matter of record. So was Quanna Parker's. I drove to Port Lavaca Friday and hung out with Hal over the weekend. If Quannah were alive, I would befriend and visit him too.

As a result of our conversations in 2009, I went back to the mats as well. I was happy with my results. I also fine tuned my skills because of it. These videos I presented were taken between 2005-2010. I am happy with my improvement as well and would be excited to train with you in search for more skill and improvement.

Please take no offense when I say "your practice" of IS/IP or "mine". I accept, that even with a teacher who teaches you from an unaltered core method, one's practice is one's own. I am responsible for my practice, how i interpret it and how i use it.

I do not claim nor want to be the toughest guy on the block. I do want to experience the fullness of life while I am here and hang out with folks who intrigue me. I also want to survive the process.

John Gilbey, Jr. Perhaps. : )

Puha

Chris
 
Old 05-28-2012, 04:49 PM   #87
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well if you say it, then it must be true.

As I said, you have no way to know whether we're talking about baked beans or not, since you've never eaten the thing in question.

Best,

Chris
I'd like to take a stab at putting an end to this endless argument that has been going around and around on this thread and others. The IHTBF argument is fallacious. (I knew that degree in formal logic would come in handy SOMEDAY).

Here is the argument:
  1. Dan Harden and a select minority of people have (re)discovered some special, secret training methods that are fundamentally different from what everybody else is doing
  2. These methods yield results that are fundamentally different from and far superior to what everybody else has been able to achieve (approaching O-Sensei levels)
  3. If you have direct experience with someone who has mastered these methods and achieved these results, it is completely obvious that everything else is lacking
  4. If you have never had direct experience with someone who has mastered these methods and achieved these results, you can't even conceive of the difference or understand what is being done. There is no way of describing it or demonstrating it other than direct experience.
Conclusion: Anyone who hasn't trained directly with Dan (et al) can have no insight or knowledge into IP/IS and cannot make any evidence-based judgements or hold any rational opinions on the subject. (IHTBF).

This is a perfectly sound logical argument. The logic problem occurs when you use the conclusion to support the premises. If Graham Christian questions 1 and 4 based on his own fairly extensive experience and knowledge as a martial artist, and Chris Li raises IHTBF, this does not undermine Graham's argument, because IHTBF is based on the premises which are being questioned. To use IHTBF to support the premises is circular logic.

Consider the following analogous argument:
  1. At the south pole there lives a leprechaun in a cave.
  2. The leprechaun can show you the most beautiful thing in the world.
  3. If you see this beautiful thing, you cannot help yourself from agreeing that everything else in the world is ugly in comparison.
  4. There is no way of describing or demonstrating how beautiful this thing it. If you haven't seen it with your own eyes, the concept of beauty is completely beyond your grasp.
Conclusion: Anyone who hasn't travelled to the south pole, met the leprechaun and seen the most beautiful thing in the world can have no insight or knowledge into beauty and cannot make any evidence-based judgements or hold any rational opinions on the subject.
I will hereafter refer to this conclusion as "You have to go to the south pole and meet the leprechaun" (YHTGTTSPAMTL for short)


This is also a perfectly logical argument. But now imagine if I challenge the premises, and you use YHTGTTSPAMTL as a counter-argument:
  • There is no cave at the south pole. YHTGTTSPAMTL!
  • Leprechauns don't exist. YHTGTTSPAMTL!
  • The most beautiful thing in the world was destroyed in A.D. 768. YHTGTTSPAMTL!
  • The concept of beauty exists independently of any one beautiful thing and can be understood as a concept . . . YHTGTTSPAMTL!

The argument as a whole is only as convincing as the premises, and it is specious to use the conclusion to support those premises. The premises must be supported by some external evidence. This puts the IHTBF crowd in a difficult position, because by their own account there is nothing short of direct experience that will support their position.

The claims about IP, etc. may be true, and I have no doubt that the people doing it are enjoying their training and are getting something out of it. I would even like to try it some day. The further claim that it is categorically different from what everyone else in the world is doing has not been, in my opinion, supported by sufficient evidence to convince me (and a lot of other people who know a great deal more about aikido than I do). Making the same statement over and over and over again on aikiweb does not make it a true statement and does not add any evidence in support of the claim.

We could all run to Dan's seminars to try and find this evidence or discount the claims, but most of us have teachers that we already spend time sincerely learning from, teachers that we trust, teachers that we have felt and observed in real life and respect deeply. When someone comes along and claims that these teachings are all missing the essential point of what O-Sensei was trying to convey, it goes against evidence that we have experienced directly in real life, so we can't really give it that much weight. Without some counter-evidence (I know, I know, IHTBF!), it is hard to feel convinced.

So please enjoy your training, write about it and even brag about it if you like. I, for one, am interested and somewhat fascinated by the debate. However, I am not convinced that my training is a waste of time because it is not the same as yours. I realize that, according to the internal logic of the IHTBF argument, I may never know the truth without seeking out Dan or somebody and experiencing it for myself. If this is the case, then it is unfortunate for me that I have other teachers with whom I prefer to train and other ways in which I would rather spend my travel budget and precious time.

From now on, whenever somebody writes "IHTBF" I will be responding, tongue firmly in cheek, with "YHTGTTSPAMTL". Anyone else is free to do likewise.

Many paths up Mount Fuji, indeed.

Peace,

Conrad
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:10 PM   #88
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I

This is a perfectly sound logical argument. The logic problem occurs when you use the conclusion to support the premises. If Graham Christian questions 1 and 4 based on his own fairly extensive experience and knowledge as a martial artist, and Chris Li raises IHTBF, this does not undermine Graham's argument, because IHTBF is based on the premises which are being questioned. To use IHTBF to support the premises is circular logic.
So if I were to question your abilities in Aikido based upon my fairly extensive experience and knowledge your response would be something other than "You haven't met me, so how would you know?".

None of what I post here is supposed to be a logical (or even illogical) proof - it's just shooting the breeze.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:24 PM   #89
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Dan's been talking about this stuff for more than 15 years in various places, starting back on the old Aikido-L mailing list.

Obviously, if Ueshiba and Takeda (and others) were doing it than this stuff is not new - but it is new to many people, and that is how I've presented it.

I've been in Aikido almost as long as you have - I've been to and met the places and people that were familiar to Ueshiba. I haven't made any judgements as to your experience, you ought not to make any judgements as to mine.

I've asked you several times for clarifications of statements that you made and received no answer - nothing to dismiss there...

Best,

Chris
I did not imply that Dan Harden was a beginner. I am not familiar with Aikido-L. I expressed my surprise to find someone, that I had not heard of before, not only to researching the same things as I had, but claiming that he completely understood it.

The way things are presented by him and students of him like you, suggests at the least that you claim or think that Dan Harden is the only one researching this and or the only one who got it (where have I heard that before). I tried to point out that that is not the case. A bit more openness would reach more people than being so adamant.

The way you present your findings show the same pattern. As if none of these subjects could not be found elsewhere, while there is a pile of books written on Shinto by people with more academic expertise then you have shown us. This would still be fine in my book if your interpretations and suggestions were not used as facts in different threads. "Facts" that are meant to support the position of Dan Harden as the only person that got the message of O Sensei.
That I call a hidden agenda.

I would be very much interested in a dialogue with Dan Harden, because I do think that he has something worthwhile to share. Between you and me there is no dialogue. You have an established point of view and in none of the threads have I seen you accept another way of looking at things other then when it fitted into your own story.
Whether you have been practicing Aikido as long as me or not is neither here nor there.

You stated that you dismissed the shihan that you have met in Japan. You stated in an response of one of my posts that you dismissed Hikitsuchi sensei as having an understanding of O Sensei's teaching. That must mean that you think that you have an expertise on this matter that is well beyond that of these shihan. Otherwise I would call such an assumption arrogance or misguidedness. I did not judge your experiences, but I am disagreeing with this kind of attitude.

As far as I am aware I have given you plenty of clarifications in every response. But at times you are trying to press me in a direction that I do not want to go to, I will not be used for your hidden agenda.

Tom
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:36 PM   #90
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hello Condrad
I would like to point out that I am one...count them...one, of a list of people who both do and teach this stuff.
1. This is not about me.
2. We have not rediscovered anything. It is as old as the hills
3. What we state is that it is all but gone from aikido and other arts, and those that have some or most of it, are not doing a good job of teaching it.

Those are some very different points than what you portray.

One last critical set of questions that always...and I mean always fails to be mentioned in these counter arguments.
4. Why is it that all who feel it...want to train it?
This includes an incredible list of Shihan, Menkyo and Senior teachers?
Why Conrad?
5. Why has Four top world famous Japanese shihans sign off and approved of it after seeing what it is doing to their student/shihan teachers
Why?
6. Why has every....single.... one....of you failed against it and that is not acknowledged?
7. And why is that fact...never brought up? It's been stated often enough. I'm just curious.
Thoughts?

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:38 PM   #91
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
So if I were to question your abilities in Aikido based upon my fairly extensive experience and knowledge your response would be something other than "You haven't met me, so how would you know?".

None of what I post here is supposed to be a logical (or even illogical) proof - it's just shooting the breeze.

Best,

Chris
Any claims made by me are considerably more humble, and less likely to attract scrutiny.

Shooting the breeze can still be free of logical fallacies.

Cheers,

Conrad
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:44 PM   #92
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I'd like to take a stab at putting an end to this endless argument that has been going around and around on this thread and others. The IHTBF argument is fallacious. (I knew that degree in formal logic would come in handy SOMEDAY).

Here is the argument:
  1. Dan Harden and a select minority of people have (re)discovered some special, secret training methods that are fundamentally different from what everybody else is doing
  2. These methods yield results that are fundamentally different from and far superior to what everybody else has been able to achieve (approaching O-Sensei levels)
  3. If you have direct experience with someone who has mastered these methods and achieved these results, it is completely obvious that everything else is lacking
  4. If you have never had direct experience with someone who has mastered these methods and achieved these results, you can't even conceive of the difference or understand what is being done. There is no way of describing it or demonstrating it other than direct experience.
Conclusion: Anyone who hasn't trained directly with Dan (et al) can have no insight or knowledge into IP/IS and cannot make any evidence-based judgements or hold any rational opinions on the subject. (IHTBF).

This is a perfectly sound logical argument. The logic problem occurs when you use the conclusion to support the premises. If Graham Christian questions 1 and 4 based on his own fairly extensive experience and knowledge as a martial artist, and Chris Li raises IHTBF, this does not undermine Graham's argument, because IHTBF is based on the premises which are being questioned. To use IHTBF to support the premises is circular logic.

Consider the following analogous argument:
  1. At the south pole there lives a leprechaun in a cave.
  2. The leprechaun can show you the most beautiful thing in the world.
  3. If you see this beautiful thing, you cannot help yourself from agreeing that everything else in the world is ugly in comparison.
  4. There is no way of describing or demonstrating how beautiful this thing it. If you haven't seen it with your own eyes, the concept of beauty is completely beyond your grasp.
Conclusion: Anyone who hasn't travelled to the south pole, met the leprechaun and seen the most beautiful thing in the world can have no insight or knowledge into beauty and cannot make any evidence-based judgements or hold any rational opinions on the subject.
I will hereafter refer to this conclusion as "You have to go to the south pole and meet the leprechaun" (YHTGTTSPAMTL for short)


This is also a perfectly logical argument. But now imagine if I challenge the premises, and you use YHTGTTSPAMTL as a counter-argument:
  • There is no cave at the south pole. YHTGTTSPAMTL!
  • Leprechauns don't exist. YHTGTTSPAMTL!
  • The most beautiful thing in the world was destroyed in A.D. 768. YHTGTTSPAMTL!
  • The concept of beauty exists independently of any one beautiful thing and can be understood as a concept . . . YHTGTTSPAMTL!
The argument as a whole is only as convincing as the premises, and it is specious to use the conclusion to support those premises. The premises must be supported by some external evidence. This puts the IHTBF crowd in a difficult position, because by their own account there is nothing short of direct experience that will support their position.

The claims about IP, etc. may be true, and I have no doubt that the people doing it are enjoying their training and are getting something out of it. I would even like to try it some day. The further claim that it is categorically different from what everyone else in the world is doing has not been, in my opinion, supported by sufficient evidence to convince me (and a lot of other people who know a great deal more about aikido than I do). Making the same statement over and over and over again on aikiweb does not make it a true statement and does not add any evidence in support of the claim.

We could all run to Dan's seminars to try and find this evidence or discount the claims, but most of us have teachers that we already spend time sincerely learning from, teachers that we trust, teachers that we have felt and observed in real life and respect deeply. When someone comes along and claims that these teachings are all missing the essential point of what O-Sensei was trying to convey, it goes against evidence that we have experienced directly in real life, so we can't really give it that much weight. Without some counter-evidence (I know, I know, IHTBF!), it is hard to feel convinced.

So please enjoy your training, write about it and even brag about it if you like. I, for one, am interested and somewhat fascinated by the debate. However, I am not convinced that my training is a waste of time because it is not the same as yours. I realize that, according to the internal logic of the IHTBF argument, I may never know the truth without seeking out Dan or somebody and experiencing it for myself. If this is the case, then it is unfortunate for me that I have other teachers with whom I prefer to train and other ways in which I would rather spend my travel budget and precious time.

From now on, whenever somebody writes "IHTBF" I will be responding, tongue firmly in cheek, with "YHTGTTSPAMTL". Anyone else is free to do likewise.

Many paths up Mount Fuji, indeed.

Peace,

Conrad
Pretty thorough analysis - however, from my viewpoint, everything is relative and without an agreed upon baseline, a comparison discussion is frutile - now once you get that agreed upon baseline with a IHTBF moment, then true discussion can commence - of course, YMMV

Greg
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:51 PM   #93
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hello Tom
I have enjoyed our exchange so far. Thank you.

Chris has never pressed that I am the only one, he is in fact hosting and training with several. On the other hand Chris has some rather unique and extensive experience training with an incredible list of Japanese Shihan.
I must say that I for one would be delighted to feel any Japanese shihan who's got it in any full measure and teaches it. I've ever felt it, seen it or read anything in writing. I think its actually a bogus claim. and I am DYING to be proven wrong. That meaning, I truly want to be wrong and get to discuss it, watch them move, see them teach, and feel their students with power.

All that said. I would add that of all the teachers from all over the world I have taught..none... meaning -not one- has been able to tell me of a single teacher who has it and is teaching it.
You keep talking of a logical argument. Okay. These men who have spent decades training with a host of Japanese Shihan have now felt me and others. They are now equipped to make comparisons that you are not. And they agree with Chris.
Why?

Who do you know that you would say qualifies?
Who are their students who have power?
Where can I meet them?
Thank you that would be a great help.
And thanks for not letting things turn ugly.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-28-2012 at 05:55 PM.
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:56 PM   #94
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Pretty thorough analysis - however, from my viewpoint, everything is relative and without an agreed upon baseline, a comparison discussion is frutile - now once you get that agreed upon baseline with a IHTBF moment, then true discussion can commence - of course, YMMV

Greg
Hi Greg,

I loved the quote underneath your name:

"The external martial arts are based on the energy of movement, whereas the internal martial arts are based on the movement of energy" Warriors of Stillness.
Does this movement of energy, from your experience, extend into shamanic power as well.
Perhaps what I have heard Chinese call "foo"; or Bon practices of binding and releasing energies
as did Abaris (contemporary of Pythagoras)?

A Story Waiting to Pierce You: Mongolia, Tibet and the Destiny of the Western World (Paperback)
By: Peter Kingsley

See: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1890350214

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-28-2012 at 05:58 PM.
 
Old 05-28-2012, 06:00 PM   #95
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
everything is relative and without an agreed upon baseline, a comparison discussion is frutile - now once you get that agreed upon baseline with a IHTBF moment, then true discussion can commence - of course, YMMV

Greg
I am interested in this baseline myself.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21347
 
Old 05-28-2012, 06:44 PM   #96
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
The specific claim has been made that O-Sensei quoted classic concepts from Chinese martial arts extensively.

This claim is either true or false, isn't it? Is there any room here for how "I feel" about the matter?

If the claim is true, surely it has implications about the art we practice. Either it's based on principles which go all the way back to the Chinese or it's not. Is there any room for "what I want" in the question?
But couldn't the claim be true and also be a big "so what"? People say all kinds of things; not every statement is of deep significance. Unless you're some kind of fanatic, surely you don't think everything O-Sensei ever said was intended as some "here's the eternal truth" statement. And, if you accept that (and I know that many don't), surely the guy was allowed a tossoff remark now and again that just didn't mean that much. Maybe, if we really want to know the truth of history, we need to consider the context of historical figures' statements before assigning importance to them.
 
Old 05-28-2012, 07:25 PM   #97
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I did not imply that Dan Harden was a beginner. I am not familiar with Aikido-L. I expressed my surprise to find someone, that I had not heard of before, not only to researching the same things as I had, but claiming that he completely understood it.

The way things are presented by him and students of him like you, suggests at the least that you claim or think that Dan Harden is the only one researching this and or the only one who got it (where have I heard that before). I tried to point out that that is not the case. A bit more openness would reach more people than being so adamant.
Neither Dan nor I have ever said that he was the only one - but he is one of the more accessible at the moment. We just had Sam Chin out in Hawaii, and I'd recommend him absolutely as well, he gets to Europe quite a bit.

My point is that Dan is not recently arrived on the scene, nor have these discussions, they've been going on in public forums for a number of years.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
The way you present your findings show the same pattern. As if none of these subjects could not be found elsewhere, while there is a pile of books written on Shinto by people with more academic expertise then you have shown us. This would still be fine in my book if your interpretations and suggestions were not used as facts in different threads. "Facts" that are meant to support the position of Dan Harden as the only person that got the message of O Sensei.
That I call a hidden agenda.
I'm not an academic - and it really doesn't have that much to do with Shinto. I don't represent anything anywhere as "fact", it's all my own opinion (although I show where it comes from). There is no secret organization with a hidden agenda. There's no non-secret organization either - just Dan and people who are friends with Dan and like training with him.

Dude - it's a blog, not a little red book.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
You stated that you dismissed the shihan that you have met in Japan. You stated in an response of one of my posts that you dismissed Hikitsuchi sensei as having an understanding of O Sensei's teaching. That must mean that you think that you have an expertise on this matter that is well beyond that of these shihan. Otherwise I would call such an assumption arrogance or misguidedness. I did not judge your experiences, but I am disagreeing with this kind of attitude.

As far as I am aware I have given you plenty of clarifications in every response. But at times you are trying to press me in a direction that I do not want to go to, I will not be used for your hidden agenda.

Tom
Well, for example, when the pro baseball players came to visit Morihei Ueshiba, baseball had to be explained to him. So yes, there are always going to be things that I understand better than another person, regardless of that persons expertise in any particular area. We also have the benefit and perspective of seeing the effects (and lack of effects) of Morihei Ueshiba's transmission over three and four generation to large numbers of students.

And after more than 30 years in Aikido I think that giving an opinion on other people's Aikido is far from unreasonable.

I think that it would be a dangerous world if we just assumed that everybody with more experience or knowledge is automatically correct in everything.

There is no secret agenda - even if there were, what would it be?

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-28-2012, 08:16 PM   #98
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Pretty thorough analysis - however, from my viewpoint, everything is relative and without an agreed upon baseline, a comparison discussion is frutile - now once you get that agreed upon baseline with a IHTBF moment, then true discussion can commence - of course, YMMV

Greg
Futile - (hate spell checkers )
 
Old 05-28-2012, 08:47 PM   #99
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Chris Li,

You say, "There is no secret agenda - even if there were, what would it be?"

That is an eye opening statement. So many discussions begin with a wide variety of subjects. And from that base, it feels like a large amount of them end up about IS/IT.

When I began meditating with the TNH crowd, it appeared that many sangha leaders and dharma teachers were learning Tai Chi as taught by one specific man. His teaching happened in seminar so all of a sudden sanghas were doing Tai Chi like a dance. I observed myself becoming judgmental. Then I became grateful. Most of these folks had been divorced from their bodies by a religious culture that was deeply influenced by Puritan and manichean dualism. They were reconnecting at a pace that made their practice valuable.

John Clodig, my Yanagi teacher had me accompany him for several years teaching "Key Moves" to police, fire, water works, university science departments, zoo keepers and hotel staff in order to reduce repetitive stress injuries by becoming more efficient in handling non-human objects. We used a curriculum of internal principles and applied them to CAL OSHA projects. What we did was a great help to others.

These are agendas that use the art outside of "fighting". I experience many of these back-and-forth bickering to really be about a limited agenda - that of aikido as martial prowess; something several folks seem to be reacting to because they have different agendas or different levels within which they hope to reach.

Just an observation about agenda.

Regards,

Chris
 
Old 05-28-2012, 08:58 PM   #100
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
You stated that you dismissed the shihan that you have met in Japan. You stated in an response of one of my posts that you dismissed Hikitsuchi sensei as having an understanding of O Sensei's teaching. That must mean that you think that you have an expertise on this matter that is well beyond that of these shihan. Otherwise I would call such an assumption arrogance or misguidedness. I did not judge your experiences, but I am disagreeing with this kind of attitude.
More about "dismissing"...

If you've read the "Profiles of the Founder" post you'll see my basic thinking on this point:

Quote:
Now, am I saying that nobody got what O-Sensei was doing? Yes and no, it's not quite that simple.

Every direct student of the Founder that I've met (and I've met quite a few) seems to have gotten something from the Founder - some a little, and some a lot.

Virtually without exception, however, these students got what they got by the feel of working directly with the Founder, hand to hand. Because of this, those that got what they got seem to share an inability to comprehend exactly what it is that they got, how to explain it, and how to pass it on in turn to their students.

The results, a gradual and steady degradation of skill, ability and knowledge, are plain to see now that there are four or five of teachers descending from the Founder, for those who are honest enough to admit it.
That's not the same, IMO, as "dismissing" all of Ueshiba's students.

Best,

Chris

 

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