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Old 06-16-2012, 03:00 PM   #476
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Matthew Gano wrote:

"...aiki essentially forces connection...or at least includes, an irresistable force of attraction...that "sticky" quality."

No. I think he means that the person who grabs an aiki person finds it difficult to let go of them.

Wing Chun sticky hands is a technique. The wing chun man learns to stick to the other guy and lead him.

What I mean is when you can't let go of the aiki man--no matter where you grab him. As Matt said, "an irresistible force of attraction" that comes from the body of the aiki practitioner. You become stuck to him and must go where he goes.

I, unfortunately, have not developed that but I have felt it with others. Very few, but some.

FWIW

David
Very interesting. Is this the same for bagua etc? If you have felt it from what type of practitioner did you feel such?

This could be of interest to me as it is different to what people feel from what I do. Meaning you 'can't' let go.

I have encountered and done sticky hands with a wing chun guy so I know what that feels like plus my godson does it too.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-16-2012, 03:22 PM   #477
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And the founder ...of...aikido would completely disagree with you. You don't get it Graham and none of the Teachers I have met ...in...aikido can function against what I am doing.
Why?
Because I (and others as well) am the one doing the aiki...do, that Ueshiba was talking about. The teachers I have met have no ability to blend with me, or move me with aiki because they quite simply do not know what aiki truly is.
When Osensei said "I am the universe" He was not making an egotistical or shamanistic statement. You need to develop aiki in you, then when someone touches you, your ki controls their ki.
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
I am very well aware of the fact that this is diametrically opposed to the accepted doctrine of modern Aikido. I am also intimately aware of the fact that my view (which is the classical view Ueshiba kept talking about) continues to completely take apart all those who practice your view. In other words. Your aikido ceases to function against aiki.
Ignorance of thousands of years of Asian teaching doesn't make someone correct or the result of their mistranslations now...true. It just makes them ignorant of profound truths.

Where we stand now is that people want to eliminate "competition" or success against pressure for the simple reason that it then allows all manner of New-age spirituality and personal spirituality to be acceptable and equally true or valid as a practice, when none of it empowers them to actually do..anything of worth against those who know the correct model.
Ueshiba was right and it seems desperately ignorant to ignore the fact that he...always won, and those practicing this way...keep winning as well.

Graham
I will be happy to check in with you when I can meet one of you who can do "aiki" with me. I will be the first to shout it from the roof tops!!!
In the mean time, I will continue to practice ...and quote...what Ueshiba was talking about, while everyone I continue to meet in Aikido stands there dumbfounded at what HIS work produces!
It is stunningly obvious that he was right after all.
Dan
None of the teachers can function against what you are doing? I'd like to hear that from their lips.

All it means to me is some find a person with internal 'power' a new challenge. It all depends on the abilities of the two people concerned rather than the art itself.

There is no doctrine called modern Aikido so that's more made up nonsense. I could use the statement Aiki in me before aiki between you and me so what's your point?

I am the universe is a spiritual statement from many spiritual practices.

Glad you can tell me when my Aikido ceases to function I wonder if Toheis ceased to function under such circumstances....

You may keep winning but I keep winning and so do my friends and no doubt many others as should be the case.

I don't do 'aiki' so no need to meet you and show you. Glad you're happy with your I/P aiki, your path not mine.

I too will continue to understand Ueshiba.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-16-2012, 03:39 PM   #478
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think so...similar at least. My thinking had to do with a quality to practice where once connected, ideally aite cannot seperate unless tori allows for it.

I couldn't say for sure of course, but my guess is this might have to do with meditation practices like chinkon no gyo, designed to focus on the integration of forces within the body; centering around centers of power like hara, etc. I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with Aikido. It might not be necessary for its practice, but I get the sense it can be a very big and central part of it and that O Sensei pobably felt it was important.
I'm not sure of much though, so, for whatever it's worth...
Take care,
Matt
I have no doubt it does Matthew. Aikido often described as moving meditation. I would say the top levels of all martial arts are very much to do with meditations.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-16-2012, 04:58 PM   #479
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Tom,

You're coming from a perspective in which both parties have equal validity from the beginning, but that is not the case on this forum.

If the topic is architecture, then Dan's point of view and opinions are far more valid than mine, though I have built buildings and repaired them and studied construction and so on. Dan is a professional architect, so whatever I may know about the subject, he knows almost infinitely more and his opinion matters more.

On this forum, we have people who trained for decades under direct students of Morihei Ueshiba. And then we have folks like Graham, who...well, it's not quite clear, yet, what he studied or under whom, but the one time he got close to a known master of aikido (Gozo Shioda), he did not touch him.

So are you saying that Graham's opinions on aikido are of equal weight to those of people like Ellis Amdur and Henry Ellis?

To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous, I'm afraid.

It produces bizarre and useless perspectives.

Cheers.

David
David,
Certainly you are only jesting here, are you not?

Because what you are suggesting here sounds like something very ugly if not dangerous; "To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous". Are you aware of the fact that you share this opinion with some of the most infamous leaders in modern history?

I am from the Netherlands and centuries ago the Dutch started a war against Spain (the Netherlands were subject to Spain) precisely for that reason. The Dutch insisted that the level of validity of each and every person is equal! Feudal Spain did not accept this and that lead to a war that lasted 80 years. Spain lost.
It brought us freedom of speech and freedom of printing. It brought us a translation of the bible into Dutch, it brought us the practice of science without the danger of being put in front of the inquisition. It brought us religious freedom. And not only to the Netherlands. Many countries in Europe changed after that war. It became later even an inspiration for the American war for independence.

Keep in mind that people fought and died for that freedom.

But here you are saying that on this forum both parties are not equal from the beginning?
The latin word forum means a square, a marketplace. It is inspired by the Greek Agora, the open place in the city of Athens where Socrates had many of his dialogues. In Roman times the forum was a place where anyone could sell his goods or hold a speech about his religious or political opinions. And just as in Athens it was the place where ideas were exchanged.

Just as that ancient Roman forum this Aiki web forum is open to all to express their opinions, their views, their insights, their experiences, their joy, their grief.

In a dialogue we listen to these opinions, views, etc in order to learn in a dialectic way. Which means that if your are convinced of someones arguments, there is no longer a need for a dialogue. You may confirm the other's opinion, but nothing much else is going on. But if you are not convinced by the other's argumentation, and you want to engage into a dialogue then you not only have to give a valid counter-argument, but the burden of proof is also on you!

Let's assume I tell you I have a white horse and you pass by my fields and see a dark horse. Then it is up to you to come with a valid argument that proofs that my horse is not white. You cannot say to me "I am David, son of the house of Orange and therefore your horse is dark". That may sound impressive, but it is invalid reasoning. Even if you are right! Because I do not own a white horse but a dark horse! I know it is a dark horse. But it makes no difference; the burden of proof is on you!

When I started my philosophy studies there were different methods of teaching-learning. One was the dialogue. Here each and every person that joins in has from the beginning equal validity. There was also a learning situation that looked more like what you describe. We did not call it a dialogue. We called it a lecture. It means you accept the authority of the lecturer and try to take in what he is telling. The position of these professors was/is similar as the position of one's Aikido sensei. In such a case you accept that the other person is more knowledgeable and that one has much to gain from the one direction flow of knowledge from him to you.

Of course this changes when the professor or architect or sensei starts expressing invalid arguments.

You have accepted Dan Harden as such an authority. Others have not. That does not mean that you can change the basic principles of dialogue! On this forum Dan Harden has to come with a valid counter argument just like every-one else. That you feel that the other party is not "equally valid" is completely irrelevant.

And I have op till now never heard Dan Harden, Ellis Amdur or Henry Ellis complain about this basic principle. And why should they? They come up with pretty solid argumentation!

By the way; the invalid argumentation was made by Chris Li, not by Dan Harden.

My apologies for responding to this post after some time. Wish I had spotted earlier.

Best regards,
Tom
 
Old 06-16-2012, 05:19 PM   #480
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
David,
Certainly you are only jesting here, are you not?.....

My apologies for responding to this post after some time. Wish I had spotted earlier.

Best regards,
Tom
I resonate with your position. This, I was to understand, was designed as a forum. But I fear it is quickly becoming a venue for an internal battle wherein one poisition will develop an orthodox creed and determine that others who err in stating the creed are heretics.

This critique has nothing to do with the correctness or incorrectness of the content of a given writer. It has to do with the definition of a forum. Writers who's content is weak, will, over time, have few responders. Writers who have pith and marrow in their words, will be flooded with response.

And each topic should have the agency to stand on its own parameters so that a variety of content may freely be discussed without imposition of one creed as the measure of its validity.

We either trust and protect the forum as a process or we lose a valuable freedom - that of the forum.

Thanks You.

Chris
 
Old 06-16-2012, 06:49 PM   #481
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post

By the way; the invalid argumentation was made by Chris Li, not by Dan Harden.
Well...I did look back, and I still think that it was a difference in opinion of how a third parties statement should be interpreted more than anything else.

Anyway, Roman forums were hardly models of reasoned and logical discussion - and the internet isn't either.

Insisting that it ought to be probably won't go anywhere useful in the end, most over-moderated web forums end up dying.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-16-2012, 07:06 PM   #482
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well...I did look back, and I still think that it was a difference in opinion of how a third parties statement should be interpreted more than anything else.

Anyway, Roman forums were hardly models of reasoned and logical discussion - and the internet isn't either.

Insisting that it ought to be probably won't go anywhere useful in the end, most over-moderated web forums end up dying.

Best,

Chris
I do not think I or Tom are asking for outside moderating. Tom appears, like me, to be one who takes responsibility for himself and gives other's the respect and agency to do the same, be they novice or Shihan.

Sometimes I do wonder if the tensions are generated by a clash of two cultures; one which involves hierarchy and lineages while the other trusts that holarchy emerges naturally without effort or worry.

Blessings,

Chris
 
Old 06-16-2012, 07:35 PM   #483
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I do not think I or Tom are asking for outside moderating. Tom appears, like me, to be one who takes responsibility for himself and gives other's the respect and agency to do the same, be they novice or Shihan.

Sometimes I do wonder if the tensions are generated by a clash of two cultures; one which involves hierarchy and lineages while the other trusts that holarchy emerges naturally without effort or worry.

Blessings,

Chris
Hmm...I don't think that David's actually arguing for hierarchy, although he'll have to speak for himself.

What we have is here is certainly not a pure dialectic, following the "laws of dialog" and shouldn't be expected to be so. It's just a bunch of folks gabbing.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-16-2012, 07:43 PM   #484
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well...I did look back, and I still think that it was a difference in opinion of how a third parties statement should be interpreted more than anything else.

Anyway, Roman forums were hardly models of reasoned and logical discussion - and the internet isn't either.

Insisting that it ought to be probably won't go anywhere useful in the end, most over-moderated web forums end up dying.

Best,

Chris
You already made it very clear that you do not care much for a reasonable or logical discussion. So I no longer try to find anything logical or reasonable in your responses. As you have put it clearly yourself; you are just shooting the breeze.
Tom

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum
 
Old 06-16-2012, 07:56 PM   #485
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
You already made it very clear that you do not care much for a reasonable or logical discussion. So I no longer try to find anything logical or reasonable in your responses. As you have put it clearly yourself; you are just shooting the breeze.
Tom

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum
I didn't say anything of the sort, but...suit yourself.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-16-2012, 08:08 PM   #486
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Hello Tom,

I'm a little confused about the above statement. It seems to imply there is a youtube video of Dan. If so, could you provide us with the link? Thank you.
Best,

Ernesto
Hello Ernesto,

You are confusing me now. Is there more then one Dan Harden teaching Aiki? I think I saw about six short youtube video-images, where he explained different ideas and approaches. Very interesting and very clear. I will try to find them on my other computer (this one does not show youtube) tomorrow and put a link here.
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom
 
Old 06-16-2012, 08:14 PM   #487
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Hmm...I don't think that David's actually arguing for hierarchy, although he'll have to speak for himself.

What we have is here is certainly not a pure dialectic, following the "laws of dialog" and shouldn't be expected to be so. It's just a bunch of folks gabbing.

Best,

Chris
I love that idea. Folks Gabbing. But some folks have explicitly expressed their concern that new aikidoka may be mislead, and they want to "protect" these new folks from false information. That is a fine ideal if you do so by dialogue and debate. But i believe the ideal can be sullied if one person stalks another from one thread to another thread and Presses upon the paramaters of that new thread, the unsolved issues of another thread, disrupting the flow of the new topic.

To be sure, there has never been perfection in a forum. Neither in Greece, Rome, Europe or in the Americas. But we should protect the ideal of what a forum is.

Orwellian "double speak" is ubiquitous these days. War is peace. Freedom is a high tech security state. Trust me, soon those lamp post that are sporting cameras in your neighborhood, will be using precognition technology, audio intercept, and will engage you by spotlighting you if you show any form of emotional display. We are quickly coming into a world of "thought police". I know. I work in the world of security management.

Protecting the ideal of a forum is of great value.

Waging Peace

Chris
 
Old 06-16-2012, 09:35 PM   #488
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would suggest that you do a bit more research into what Morihei Ueshiba thought about "competition". I think you will be surprised at what he really meant. Peter Goldsbury touched on that subject in a post here on Aikiweb ... or maybe it was in one of his TIE articles. From what I remember, to suggest that Ueshiba discounted all competition is wrong. If I recall correctly, Ueshiba discounted the kind of sport competition where there is an actual winner and loser. For example, Olympic Judo. I do not believe Ueshiba discounted peer competition within a dojo to make oneself better. I'm sure there are other definitions of competition that Ueshiba allowed and some that he did not.

I would disagree with this for the aiki arts. If we look at a brief glimpse of Ueshiba:

1. Tenryu could not budge him, push him over, move him, or get the better of Ueshiba because ... Ueshiba knew the secret of aiki. No mention of spirituality.

2. Shioda was tested and passed without mention of spirituality. It was entirely martial.

3. Ueshiba, himself, stated that aiki was not a religion but that aiki made religion better.

4. Ueshiba, himself, stated that one did not have to follow in his spiritual footsteps. He not only allowed but encouraged others to keep to their own spiritual path.

5. Horikawa and Sagawa were Ueshiba's peers and martially, they all did similar things. This martial skill can be directly traced back to Takeda and aiki. Aiki, the martial body changing method. No spirituality.

6. Ueshiba, himself, stated that he is not a religious man, but a man of budo.

7. Nearly every single martial artist who came into contact with Ueshiba, Horikawa, Sagawa, Takeda, all knew (not thought, not believed, did not quibble) that they had encountered something beyond (some said incomprehensible) all their 10, 20, 30 years of training in countless other martial arts including kendo, judo, jujutsu, karate, sumo, boxing. These highly skiled, experienced martial artists *heard* about the aiki greats, but it wasn't until they actually, physically experienced training with them did they find out how utterly wrong their opinions were. What was it that Ueshiba said of Takeda ... He opened my eyes to true budo.

So, when talking about the aiki arts ... no amount of "deep understanding" can be complete without the martial context. It Has To Be Felt. IHTBF. Not technique. Never technique. But, that aspect of the aiki arts ... which is "aiki" ... the aiki as handed down by Takeda must be there or there really is no "deep understanding".

100 years of studying Omoto kyo is not aikido. 100 years of being a devout christian is not aikido. 100 years of being Buddha is not aikido. While 100 years of spirituality may be its own reward, it should never be confused as synonymous with aikido. No aiki ... no aikido. Ueshiba said pick your religion, pick your spirituality, but this is budo, the way of aiki. And, if you read Chris Li's blogs, you begin to understand that Ueshiba talked incessantly about old, known martial training methods, sayings, ideas, etc. He just hid them inside his spiritual ideology. Martial training methods that have a spiritual component hidden inside spiritual ideology. Aiki completes religion/spirituality. And that is where one will find the deeper understanding.

All IMO anyway,
Mark
It is always good to do more research. I have a pretty good idea about what the founder really thought about competition. And I have read the articles of Peter Goldsbury. As to Judo on the Olympic Games; even Judo founder Jigoro Kano, IOC member, was against bringing Judo as a competing sport into the Olympics.
But you have missed my point. I was not discussing competition in sport or competing with peers in the dojo. I am saying that in the Western society we tend to see competition everywhere we look. We even think there is competition in nature! We create ways to compete, to get into contentious situations. It expresses itself on the mat by injuring people with rough behaviour, forcing techniques and damaging parts of the body. If someone complains, it is explained as being part of "real martial arts". I call that a hidden competition. The same people who do these things would in most cases never step into a ring, not even for a sparring session. But in an Aikido dojo they want to show that they are the best.
Others use Aikido for a political carrier. They represent a dojo or a group of dojo and they compete with other representatives to get to the highest position. Politics becomes a form of competition. And so is all too often getting a dan-grade. There are many hidden ways to compete with one another. There is something true and sincere about a real fight - a fight to the death. O Sensei pointed to this on several occasions and emphasized that the days of that kind of fighting and of war was over. But at the same time he dismissed the kind of hidden competition that we have seen in the passed decades in almost every country where Aikido became known. Instead he taught his students to train with the same sincerity as one would have in (preparing for) a real fight. The same sincerity can be used to create a world of peace.

As for your numbered list, that is the usual laundry-list is it not? I have seen the same arguments before in another thread(s). Some are historic facts, but bare little meaning. Or are statements to the same effect (Aiki is no religion, so what?). Or a personal interpretation that you obviously share with a group.
It is obvious that Chris Li's blog is your main source of information. As for myself; I was already aware of the fact that O Sensei based what he was teaching on older martial arts in the seventies. I can hardly believe that people nowadays think that this is some sort of shocking revelation.

O Sensei did not have a spiritual ideology. That is a crucial point in understanding Aikido.

Tom
 
Old 06-17-2012, 12:47 AM   #489
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
It is obvious that Chris Li's blog is your main source of information.
Actually, Mark had all of that stuff long before I ever put up a blog post. I think that you're late to the game in this particular discussion.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-17-2012, 07:17 AM   #490
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I love that idea. Folks Gabbing. But some folks have explicitly expressed their concern that new aikidoka may be mislead, and they want to "protect" these new folks from false information. That is a fine ideal if you do so by dialogue and debate. But i believe the ideal can be sullied if one person stalks another from one thread to another thread and Presses upon the paramaters of that new thread, the unsolved issues of another thread, disrupting the flow of the new topic.

To be sure, there has never been perfection in a forum. Neither in Greece, Rome, Europe or in the Americas. But we should protect the ideal of what a forum is.

Orwellian "double speak" is ubiquitous these days. War is peace. Freedom is a high tech security state. Trust me, soon those lamp post that are sporting cameras in your neighborhood, will be using precognition technology, audio intercept, and will engage you by spotlighting you if you show any form of emotional display. We are quickly coming into a world of "thought police". I know. I work in the world of security management.

Protecting the ideal of a forum is of great value.

Waging Peace

Chris
Well said.
Communication is difficult enough by itself. The "rules of dialogue" are meant to make a discourse more clear, more understandable. It is like the oil in a machine, it makes it work more smooth. In exchanging ideas and concepts we want to be as clear as possible so there will be no misunderstanding in what we mean. We try to come up with facts that support our ideas. We try to formulate it the best we can. And for that we use reason and logic.

But not everybody wants to communicate this way. There are always filibusters who misuse the dialogue in order to force their opinion on someone else. They present something as a fact while in reality it is a interpretation or a vision of how they would like something to be. They come up with a translation that although not entirely wrong is nevertheless a particular interpretation of an original text. They use fallacies. Or try to confuse everyone by either not giving a proper definition or changing the meaning continuously. Or by trying to exclude someone from the discussion by suggesting that someone has not the same validity as they have or that someone is late in the discussion or by suggesting that someone should do more research on a subject.

Every trick in the book is being used to win the dialogue. Meanwhile forgetting that it was not about winning in the first place.

Where people are no longer able to communicate distance is created. That distance and unwillingness to listen to one another is what all to often leads to violence. Not using dialogue in a meaningful way is a step in that direction. That is why we need to cherish the ideal of a forum.

Having said this, dialogue is to me not always the best way of communicating. Sharing a meal with others, walking through the mountains with others, laughing together about a silly joke, listening together to some unknown or very familiar song or simply sitting next to one another enjoying the silence are to me more valid ways of communicating then these debates on AikiWeb.

Gassho,

Tom
 
Old 06-17-2012, 07:28 AM   #491
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Hello Ernesto,

You are confusing me now. Is there more then one Dan Harden teaching Aiki? I think I saw about six short youtube video-images, where he explained different ideas and approaches. Very interesting and very clear. I will try to find them on my other computer (this one does not show youtube) tomorrow and put a link here.
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom
Goedemiddag Tom!

Thank you for coming back to me. It so happenes that I stumbled on your website by accident earlier today. That is quite an interesting project you've got there! If you don't mind the thread drift, I was quite intrigued by the photograph of Ueshiba on the homepage. I never seen that one before and even put a link up on Facebook. I have some additional questions so I might send you a PM later today (but I'll switch to Dutch then ).

I think Chris' point of coming late to the discussion has some merit in the sense that the very heated debates on IP/Aiki/IS/IT etc. have already taken place a couple of years ago. I understand it's rather daunting to re-read years and years of posts, and I won't ask you to, but as for myself, I would not want to have missed it for the perspective I gained. One of the main conclusions I drew is how hard it is to find a common ground to discuss this without sounding like you want to convert people. I can't deny that some aspect of that tends to creep in.
I think some of that may stem from the fact that many who now "see" know what it was like to "not see". So reading the statements from those who do "not see" is like reading ones own former statements. But it was the physical interaction with people with the skills known as either IP/Aiki/IS etc. that ended all debate and doubt. In person, not online. And Dan is only one of them.

Now what is rather nice about Dan is that he, as opposed to many other like him, is active online and debating with everyone he's engaged with. he has held much the same position regarding these skills for over a decade, mostly as an "outsider" looking in. Now that he is out there doing seminars, he is providing those who kept an eye on him (be it positive or negative) to physically verify his claims. And I'm not suggesting in the way of fighting or testing (though there is some of that as well - all friendly ).
I kept an eye on him for over 10 years before I finally got the change to meet him by arranging a seminar in Holland. During that past decade his posts many times infuriated, intrigued and above all fascinated as it sounded so promising. Too promising back then. But now....

Back to the thread: Could it be that you are confusing Dan with Dane Harden? I did another search and came up with a few hits like this one. If this is the case, then it would require a fundamental shift in whatever pre-conceptions (if any) you might have constructed of Dan based on these vids.
This gentleman is not Dan. Far far from it - with all due respect.

Last edited by Ernesto Lemke : 06-17-2012 at 07:34 AM.

Ernesto
 
Old 06-17-2012, 08:59 AM   #492
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Could it be that you are confusing Dan with Dane Harden? I did another search and came up with a few hits like this one. If this is the case, then it would require a fundamental shift in whatever pre-conceptions (if any) you might have constructed of Dan based on these vids.
This gentleman is not Dan. Far far from it - with all due respect.
Quoting Ernesto, but talking to Tom:

I've never seen videos of Dan. But since about a year there are some pictures of his seminars floating around on the web. These pictures were taken and published on the web with Dan's approval (I suppose).
Some pictures are posted on Aikiweb and some are linked to from Aikiweb, like these http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dan-Ha...19248654764115. So you can check these and see if you found the same guy.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 06-17-2012 at 09:11 AM.
 
Old 06-17-2012, 09:27 AM   #493
Tom Verhoeven
Dojo: Aikido Auvergne Kumano dojo
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Goedemiddag Tom!

Thank you for coming back to me. It so happenes that I stumbled on your website by accident earlier today. That is quite an interesting project you've got there! If you don't mind the thread drift, I was quite intrigued by the photograph of Ueshiba on the homepage. I never seen that one before and even put a link up on Facebook. I have some additional questions so I might send you a PM later today (but I'll switch to Dutch then ).

I think Chris' point of coming late to the discussion has some merit in the sense that the very heated debates on IP/Aiki/IS/IT etc. have already taken place a couple of years ago. I understand it's rather daunting to re-read years and years of posts, and I won't ask you to, but as for myself, I would not want to have missed it for the perspective I gained. One of the main conclusions I drew is how hard it is to find a common ground to discuss this without sounding like you want to convert people. I can't deny that some aspect of that tends to creep in.
I think some of that may stem from the fact that many who now "see" know what it was like to "not see". So reading the statements from those who do "not see" is like reading ones own former statements. But it was the physical interaction with people with the skills known as either IP/Aiki/IS etc. that ended all debate and doubt. In person, not online. And Dan is only one of them.

Now what is rather nice about Dan is that he, as opposed to many other like him, is active online and debating with everyone he's engaged with. he has held much the same position regarding these skills for over a decade, mostly as an "outsider" looking in. Now that he is out there doing seminars, he is providing those who kept an eye on him (be it positive or negative) to physically verify his claims. And I'm not suggesting in the way of fighting or testing (though there is some of that as well - all friendly ).
I kept an eye on him for over 10 years before I finally got the change to meet him by arranging a seminar in Holland. During that past decade his posts many times infuriated, intrigued and above all fascinated as it sounded so promising. Too promising back then. But now....

Back to the thread: Could it be that you are confusing Dan with Dane Harden? I did another search and came up with a few hits like this one. If this is the case, then it would require a fundamental shift in whatever pre-conceptions (if any) you might have constructed of Dan based on these vids.
This gentleman is not Dan. Far far from it - with all due respect.
Bonjour Ernesto,

Yes, it is very well possible that I am confusing Dan Harden with someone else. Used Google to find some video-images and naturally assumed that this was the Dan Harden everyone was talking about. You are the first to point to the fact that I am mistaken. And I am most grateful to you that you have done that.

Looking back at my posts, I think it was my last post where I asked a question about godai and gogyo that no longer is valid, because of my wrong premiss.

As for your other point. I do not have any pre-conceptions of Dan Harden. I find what he has been telling on this forum intriguing, interesting and often in concord with my own experiences.

In general I try to keep an open mind to everyone's story. An open mind after all is a precondition to learning.

And yes there may be moments that I do not agree with the statements or points of view of Dan Harden, or the rather blunt way of presenting his case at times, but up till now I have not mentioned any of these objections on this forum.

The objections that I did mention had mostly to do with the form or the structure of the dialogue. As a result people wanted to object to the content of what they thought I was saying, while I was only talking about form.

I will admit that there may be some merit to Chris Li's point that I am coming in late in this discussion. But I do not consider myself a newcomer in the world of Budo. The discussion in itself is not new either, I have followed many discussions on similar subjects. The old discussions about ki comes to mind. Even when entering a discussion late it should be possible to formulate a few basic definitions to see where the difference of opinion lies.
On this platform I cannot "feel" or "see" what is meant by Aiki/IP/IS. That is meant for in the dojo. On this platform we use words, definitions, valid argumentation to get an idea across. I can imagine that the perspective on Aiki/IP/IS of someone who has trained with Dan Harden has changed. But from that it does not follow that you can dismiss logic and reason. In fact, someone who is speaking from experience should be better in formulating these idea's then those who do not have that experience. Up till now I have not seen that.

vriendelijke groet,

Tom
 
Old 06-17-2012, 09:33 AM   #494
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Quoting Ernesto, but talking to Tom:

I've never seen videos of Dan. But since about a year there are some pictures of his seminars floating around on the web. These pictures were taken and published on the web with Dan's approval (I suppose).
Some pictures are posted on Aikiweb and some are linked to from Aikiweb, like these http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dan-Ha...19248654764115. So you can check these and see if you found the same guy.
Hello Dave,
As I mentioned to Ernesto I got it wrong and confused him with someone else.

I thank you as well for pointing this out to me. And for the photo on facebook. Will not make that mistake again.

vriendelijke groeten,

Tom
 
Old 06-17-2012, 08:04 PM   #495
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Certainly you are only jesting here, are you not?

Because what you are suggesting here sounds like something very ugly if not dangerous; "To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous". Are you aware of the fact that you share this opinion with some of the most infamous leaders in modern history?
This is quite an impressive straw man you've created here, from a measly bit of moldy hay.

It's our modern problem that we no longer believe in elites. These days no one is special; no one is an expert; an encounter between teacher and student is supposed to be a "dialog" between equals where the student of two month's point of view has as much validity as a teacher's of forty years.

I want no part of that. We are all equal before God; we are all equal at the ballot box; we are all equal in the courts. On the mat? I'm sorry--I know very well where I stand. And when those I've chosen as my teachers speak on subjects within their expertise I have no need to claim an "equal" place. Because such equality is a sham.

On the web it's a little harder to figure out who has expertise and who doesn't. But it is a community--which means you know people who know people; people you trust know people they trust. And when lots of trustworthy people have all begun to trust someone (or a set of people), it pays to listen. And if you don't know any of them?

Get out more.
 
Old 06-17-2012, 10:57 PM   #496
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This is quite an impressive straw man you've created here, from a measly bit of moldy hay.

It's our modern problem that we no longer believe in elites. These days no one is special; no one is an expert; an encounter between teacher and student is supposed to be a "dialog" between equals where the student of two month's point of view has as much validity as a teacher's of forty years.

I want no part of that. We are all equal before God; we are all equal at the ballot box; we are all equal in the courts. On the mat? I'm sorry--I know very well where I stand. And when those I've chosen as my teachers speak on subjects within their expertise I have no need to claim an "equal" place. Because such equality is a sham.

On the web it's a little harder to figure out who has expertise and who doesn't. But it is a community--which means you know people who know people; people you trust know people they trust. And when lots of trustworthy people have all begun to trust someone (or a set of people), it pays to listen. And if you don't know any of them?

Get out more.
I don't know...
The community isn't exactly equal along all parts of the spectrum, is it? It's easy to say just ask someone you trust to ask someone they trust and so on, but it doesn't always actually work so easily as that, as far as I can tell. Plus there's a bit of a process which takes time for that kind of thing...which also varies based on the particulars of where in the community we're at.
I've asked a variety of people to give their impressions on people and recieved practically nothing in return. People aren't always helpful where we would like them to be.
When it comes to engaging a conversation we're all equals. When it comes to understanding that conversation we're not all equals. Tom's describing the first part, as I see it.
I still think the biggest hudle isn't people thinking they know more than they do. I think it's conventions in language and personality.
Like I said though, I don't know.

Also, to comment on my earlier remarks about "sticky," David made a good distinction (as far as I can tell). I have no real familiarity with Wing Chung sticky hands drills, so they are probably quite different.
Be excellent to each other,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 06-17-2012 at 11:01 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-17-2012, 11:12 PM   #497
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Matt,

How cool. Bill and Ted, right?
Can I steal that?

Be excellent to each other..
Party on, Dude.

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 12:21 AM   #498
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Matt,

How cool. Bill and Ted, right?
Can I steal that?

Be excellent to each other..
Party on, Dude.

Chris
Hi Chris,
I stole it, so you have my permission to re-steal it!
I recently read a George Carlin quote I really liked (I like pretty much all of them) so I may have been channeling my inner Rufus.
(Awesome air-guitar solo)
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-18-2012, 10:28 AM   #499
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This is quite an impressive straw man you've created here, from a measly bit of moldy hay.

It's our modern problem that we no longer believe in elites. These days no one is special; no one is an expert; an encounter between teacher and student is supposed to be a "dialog" between equals where the student of two month's point of view has as much validity as a teacher's of forty years.

I want no part of that. We are all equal before God; we are all equal at the ballot box; we are all equal in the courts. On the mat? I'm sorry--I know very well where I stand. And when those I've chosen as my teachers speak on subjects within their expertise I have no need to claim an "equal" place. Because such equality is a sham.

On the web it's a little harder to figure out who has expertise and who doesn't. But it is a community--which means you know people who know people; people you trust know people they trust. And when lots of trustworthy people have all begun to trust someone (or a set of people), it pays to listen. And if you don't know any of them?

Get out more.
Where do you suppose I made a strawman? It was David who was talking about "level of validity". And that was what I addressed. No strawman there.
I cannot help it that David's argument is part of a long discourse and that this discourse and the conclusions that came out of it has had a major effect on history and on our modern society. I do think it is important that we are at least to a certain extend aware and knowledgeable about this.

This forum is a public place. We share this with one another on an equal basis. Very much like we would use public transport or go to a pub(it comes from the word public house if I recall correctly) or a restaurant. You would complain if you for the same money would get less then the man next to you.
Yet for some strange reason some think that for this forum one person is better qualified then an other. That there is more validity to the words of this person then the other. That there is no need to look at what this person is actually saying or how he is formulating his arguments. That the validity of his words lies in the person himself.
That leads to a slippery slope. For who is going to decide that there is more validity in the words of person A then in person B? Or if we have to decide for ourselves, how are we going to do that? Which criteria are we going to apply? Are we going to vote for it? Are we going to make a validity-list and put it on this forum? "You are not allowed to question person A! However, you may ask harsh and silly questions to person B".

On a personal level I might take a different stand. There are some teachers that I admire and who are an example to me. They do not always use dialogue to teach, or a lecture. Often they show the direction of there knowledge by example. Or in parables. Or in poetry. In humor. It takes a different kind of effort to learn from them. Here the "level of validity" does not come into play. It is a different kind of communication. And a different kind of relationship.

There is something ironic about people who are into martial arts and disavow the principles of conduct in a dialogue. The earliest people who formulated these principles were warriors. If you want to learn about solid argumentation then Socrates is one of the finest examples in history. Yet he was a well trained warrior who fought in man-to-man battles against the enemies of Athens. His student Plato was a great athlete and famous wrestling champion (his name probably refers to his broad shoulders). To name just a few, for the list is long!

So what should we say about people who call themselves martial artist but cannot deal with decent exchange of arguments? That they are whimps? (and yes, that is an argumentum ad hominem).

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 11:10 AM   #500
MM
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Where do you suppose I made a strawman? It was David who was talking about "level of validity". And that was what I addressed. No strawman there.
I cannot help it that David's argument is part of a long discourse and that this discourse and the conclusions that came out of it has had a major effect on history and on our modern society. I do think it is important that we are at least to a certain extend aware and knowledgeable about this.

This forum is a public place. We share this with one another on an equal basis. Very much like we would use public transport or go to a pub(it comes from the word public house if I recall correctly) or a restaurant. You would complain if you for the same money would get less then the man next to you.
Yet for some strange reason some think that for this forum one person is better qualified then an other. That there is more validity to the words of this person then the other. That there is no need to look at what this person is actually saying or how he is formulating his arguments. That the validity of his words lies in the person himself.
That leads to a slippery slope. For who is going to decide that there is more validity in the words of person A then in person B? Or if we have to decide for ourselves, how are we going to do that? Which criteria are we going to apply? Are we going to vote for it? Are we going to make a validity-list and put it on this forum? "You are not allowed to question person A! However, you may ask harsh and silly questions to person B".

On a personal level I might take a different stand. There are some teachers that I admire and who are an example to me. They do not always use dialogue to teach, or a lecture. Often they show the direction of there knowledge by example. Or in parables. Or in poetry. In humor. It takes a different kind of effort to learn from them. Here the "level of validity" does not come into play. It is a different kind of communication. And a different kind of relationship.

There is something ironic about people who are into martial arts and disavow the principles of conduct in a dialogue. The earliest people who formulated these principles were warriors. If you want to learn about solid argumentation then Socrates is one of the finest examples in history. Yet he was a well trained warrior who fought in man-to-man battles against the enemies of Athens. His student Plato was a great athlete and famous wrestling champion (his name probably refers to his broad shoulders). To name just a few, for the list is long!

So what should we say about people who call themselves martial artist but cannot deal with decent exchange of arguments? That they are whimps? (and yes, that is an argumentum ad hominem).

Tom
You blend three very distinct ideas into one. First, yes, this is a public forum. No disagreement there.

However, 2 and 3 are not to be confused or combined. First, some people are immenently more qualified to discuss certain subjects than others. For instance, if Graham Christian who has very little ability to read, write, or translate Japanese start telling Peter Goldsbury or Chris Li that their translations are wrong ... well, you might as well say the Earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and the sky is neon green with purple polka dots. Peter and Chris are extremely more qualified and their words are well more valid in discussing Japanese translations than either Graham or me.

If you're supposed to sit in a Space Shuttle to go to the space station, who do you want talking and working out the details? Jay Leno or NASA Engineers?

Doesn't matter how Jay Leno formulates his arguments or what he says, if you listen to him, you'll either never get there or die trying. NASA Engineers have an excellent track record. Not every opinion is true or valid. Not every opinion should be listened to.

Finally (your third point), disavowing the principles of conduct in a dialogue ... that goes both ways. If some soke grandmaster of DimMak ryu shows up and he has almost no background in aikido except glancing at forums and reading some books comes on here telling everyone what Morihei Ueshiba really meant ... those people who defend this "soke" have violated and disavowed the principles of conduct in a dialogue.
 

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