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Old 06-07-2012, 11:55 AM   #401
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
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Re: Spiritual and i/p


Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-07-2012, 12:00 PM   #402
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
Sorry, I would like clarification on this, Graham. The following are your words, verbatim:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know."

(and then, after Mr. Harden accepted your invitation and offered you dinner)

"...there seems no reason for us two to meet."

I'm confused. Has the previous offer been rescinded? If so, why?

Brett Charvat
You're welcome.
I need good reason to meet up with anyone in AIkido or life. Don't you?

I don't need others 'good reasons' unless I'm lost.

Step up to the plate is a good saying to put there as you have for I don't agree with the 'shallow' view (as I see it) given to it.

It is generally seen and used nowadays like it's some kind of macho test, like some kind of wild west cowboy thing. Those who use it as such I see as too shallow. When I use it it has no such meaning.

For me an uchideshi for example would be someone who has stepped up to the plate. Thus it's nothing to do with macho challenge but real challenge which includes this major factor....sacrifice.


Giving up things in order to dedicate yourself to something for a set period of time.

Dedication and sacrifice.

Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.

So me saying no to Dan is actually a compliment to him. One day we may meet and one day we may spend a couple of weeks or more sharing otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

I would rather show nothing to someone who thinks they can go away knowing what I do by a quick visit.

I am talking me. So no need to debate the issue. Thus what others may see as 'great' when they say I should I actually find it quite insulting. I don't blame them for they don't know me. Sacrifice and dedication is quite the opposite to 'I'll buy you dinner'.

I'll give you 50p for your Hakama or that picture on the wall of your dojo. That's very nice of me don't you think?

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 12:09 PM   #403
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
aaahhh the ball is still in play.... the Artful Dodger is on the clock

IP/IS are just tricks....really........

Gary
Ahh come on. Look in the mirror. Context. You are becoming quite artful though.

I bet you liked rock and roll too doing the twist. Trick does not mean not real and refers to what and how people used it.

Keep luvin it.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 12:09 PM   #404
mrlizard123
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.
Seems like a PA swipe at anyone training with Dan, coincidence he just mentioned he was in the U.K. twice a year? I'm sure you'll point out that this is my perception, not your intention... of course I likely didn't understand.

Why would you accept Mark visiting (sorry to use your name in this Mark, just the only person I know who I can use as a concrete example) but not Dan? Is this not "dilettantism" by your standards?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-07-2012, 12:16 PM   #405
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
"Much like" - but how do you connect that to what Ueshiba actually said?

Also, what about the second half of the question - the pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris
It connects with most of what he said, actually.

I already explained that above plus there is no dichotomy for me.

Built up realizations led to the change in view. The full understanding of budo is love and thus the post war change as he said, actually.

Kannagara, a universal, cosmic principle. A spiritual basic.

I need take this no further with you Chris for we have been there before.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 12:27 PM   #406
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

At about one minute into this clip, we get to hear about the original poster of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8

Ask him a question and he can't provide real answers, based upon facts.

Ask him to live up to his words and watch him squirm out of it.

In a yard full of chickens, it is easy to tell the roosters from the hens..... Just saying....

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-07-2012, 12:49 PM   #407
Mark Freeman
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
(sorry to use your name in this Mark, just the only person I know who I can use as a concrete example)
Hi Rich,

no problem, I use it all the time

it's not often I am cited as an example of concrete though

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 01:03 PM   #408
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Seems like a PA swipe at anyone training with Dan, coincidence he just mentioned he was in the U.K. twice a year? I'm sure you'll point out that this is my perception, not your intention... of course I likely didn't understand.

Why would you accept Mark visiting (sorry to use your name in this Mark, just the only person I know who I can use as a concrete example) but not Dan? Is this not "dilettantism" by your standards?
Well I'm sorry but it happens to be how I am and one of our many differences.

Mark already had been in touch with me a number of times privately and shared some similar views and experience. He had, if you research my past posts on Ki Aikido etc. on occasion pointed out what I was saying was actually true despite many saying otherwise. He probably found my manner unusual though.

As I said also, attitude and approach. (read my reply to Dan, friendships come from similar views)

So we already understood from where we were coming. As it happens we then wanted to arrange further visits to each others actual classes.

There is no comparison. I professed a certain amt of knowledge and ability in a certain way. Mark is very capable in that particular way. It kinda fits naturally don't you think?

One more thing, none of this equals against. That's me and my way. I am not against Dan or you doing your whatever. Therefor if you, or anyone, can only think in such terms then you will see such things in what I say so you are seeing what isn't there.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 01:07 PM   #409
Brett Charvat
Location: Pullman, WA
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You're welcome.
I need good reason to meet up with anyone in AIkido or life. Don't you?

I don't need others 'good reasons' unless I'm lost.

Step up to the plate is a good saying to put there as you have for I don't agree with the 'shallow' view (as I see it) given to it.

It is generally seen and used nowadays like it's some kind of macho test, like some kind of wild west cowboy thing. Those who use it as such I see as too shallow. When I use it it has no such meaning.

For me an uchideshi for example would be someone who has stepped up to the plate. Thus it's nothing to do with macho challenge but real challenge which includes this major factor....sacrifice.


Giving up things in order to dedicate yourself to something for a set period of time.

Dedication and sacrifice.

Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.

So me saying no to Dan is actually a compliment to him. One day we may meet and one day we may spend a couple of weeks or more sharing otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

I would rather show nothing to someone who thinks they can go away knowing what I do by a quick visit.

I am talking me. So no need to debate the issue. Thus what others may see as 'great' when they say I should I actually find it quite insulting. I don't blame them for they don't know me. Sacrifice and dedication is quite the opposite to 'I'll buy you dinner'.

I'll give you 50p for your Hakama or that picture on the wall of your dojo. That's very nice of me don't you think?

Peace.G.
Hi Graham, thanks for the reply. I apologize; I should have been clearer in my earlier post. It was not the phrase "step up to the plate" that I was interested in, but rather the one immediately following. I'll add emphasis and see if that helps. Again, you said:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and MEET ME and learn something they don't know."

So, with that in mind I'll pose the question again; is Mr. Harden's acceptance of your offer to meet you and buy you dinner acceptable to you? Or has the offer (to meet you) been rescinded? And again, if so, why?

Brett
 
Old 06-07-2012, 01:18 PM   #410
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It connects with most of what he said, actually.

I already explained that above plus there is no dichotomy for me.
So when you said that some things that he said were "pre-Aikido" (but declined to ever say what those were, or what made them "pre-Aikido"), you were incorrect?

If anyone's interested, here's the thread.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-07-2012, 04:54 PM   #411
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Don't think you have any similar reality to me as to what stepping up to the plate means.

When you can step up to my plate, we'll see eye to eye. These modern stepping up to the plate attitude is so fake.

Peace G.
Really?

When we can step up to your plate?

That sounds very odd. Dan has offered to step up and compare notes with you. I stepped up to see what he offered.

It seems everyone is willing to "step up" except you.

That's disappointing Graham.

Here's how I had you pegged: I think you and I both might pass for the Paul Rudd character in Our Idiot Brother... I also figured you for the type that someone could insult to your face and ten minutes later, if you saw them in a burning house you would risk your life--or even give it--to save them. I'm that kind of person, myself. I might get mad and say something the first time. We might almost come to a fight, but ten minutes later, I'd risk my life to save theirs.

But...it looks like "step up" has a special meaning for you.

Maybe I was wrong about you.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:22 PM   #412
Hellis
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

As an old English guy, the term - stepping up to the plate - always meant `taking resposiblity -acceping or facing the challenge - I never saw it any other way, not something to juggle around to mean what ever one wanted it to mean.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:34 PM   #413
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Really?

When we can step up to your plate?

That sounds very odd. Dan has offered to step up and compare notes with you. I stepped up to see what he offered.

It seems everyone is willing to "step up" except you.

That's disappointing Graham.

Here's how I had you pegged: I think you and I both might pass for the Paul Rudd character in Our Idiot Brother... I also figured you for the type that someone could insult to your face and ten minutes later, if you saw them in a burning house you would risk your life--or even give it--to save them. I'm that kind of person, myself. I might get mad and say something the first time. We might almost come to a fight, but ten minutes later, I'd risk my life to save theirs.

But...it looks like "step up" has a special meaning for you.

Maybe I was wrong about you.

Best to you.

David
Maybe you are wrong about me, you probably are. The example you give above is quite me though. So you're not wrong there.

If he had to go to let's say a dodgy part of london of the ethnic kind where a big brash American might feel a bit uncomfortable then I would soon sort that out too. No problem. If he's stuck for a place to stay I could sort that out too. If anyone on this forum came to london anywhere near this side of town and needed assistance, no problem.

As I said, it's all good.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:37 PM   #414
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Maybe you are wrong about me, you probably are. The example you give above is quite me though. So you're not wrong there.

If he had to go to let's say a dodgy part of london of the ethnic kind where a big brash American might feel a bit uncomfortable then I would soon sort that out too. No problem. If he's stuck for a place to stay I could sort that out too. If anyone on this forum came to london anywhere near this side of town and needed assistance, no problem.

As I said, it's all good.

Peace.G.
I coulda used a man like you in Moscow....

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:38 PM   #415
gregstec
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Yada, yada, yada - how many times do some people have to present the same rhetoric - i think most people in this forum have a real good idea of the positions of the key players in this thread on spirituality and IP - how about we all move on to some new stuff

Greg
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:55 PM   #416
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
Hi Graham, thanks for the reply. I apologize; I should have been clearer in my earlier post. It was not the phrase "step up to the plate" that I was interested in, but rather the one immediately following. I'll add emphasis and see if that helps. Again, you said:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and MEET ME and learn something they don't know."

So, with that in mind I'll pose the question again; is Mr. Harden's acceptance of your offer to meet you and buy you dinner acceptable to you? Or has the offer (to meet you) been rescinded? And again, if so, why?

Brett
Brett. Don't know where you're coming from or why. Me meeting anyone would be done by p/m anyway.

That's between me and them.

No juggling, just manners.

Dan shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. I give you my rules I follow with regards to meeting anyone. Don't you like them? I would not dare approach anyone in 'challenging' way or in a 'I'll give you this' way.

We may meet, that's between us. Your interest seems to mean you think I should or shouldn't. Why?

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:57 PM   #417
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I coulda used a man like you in Moscow....
Ha, ha, Moscow? Methinks I might need some protection there.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 06:08 PM   #418
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
As an old English guy, the term - stepping up to the plate - always meant `taking resposiblity -acceping or facing the challenge - I never saw it any other way, not something to juggle around to mean what ever one wanted it to mean.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/
Henry:

Same on this side of the pond. Maybe it's just something with those younger English models... No, that's not it, your son is a proud example of a family tradition of excellence in Martial arts. Jugglers and slippery clowns are on both sides of the pond as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #419
Brett Charvat
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
We may meet, that's between us. Your interest seems to mean you think I should or shouldn't. Why?

Peace.G.
No, please don't misunderstand. Who you choose to meet is of course up to you and you alone. It's just that when someone makes an offer, such as "you can come and meet me," and then someone else responds with "okay, I'll come meet you," and then the first person comes back with "no, we're not going to meet," it just seems a bit, you know.....dodgy. Good luck in your training.

Brett
 
Old 06-07-2012, 06:59 PM   #420
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Sun Tzu in The Art of War speculated on the tactical use of the Pincer movement but advised against trying it, feeling that an army would likely run first before the move could be completed. He argued that it was best to allow the enemy a path to escape, as the target army would fight with more ferocity when completely engulfed....

Puha

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-07-2012 at 07:02 PM.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 07:54 PM   #421
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
No, please don't misunderstand. Who you choose to meet is of course up to you and you alone. It's just that when someone makes an offer, such as "you can come and meet me," and then someone else responds with "okay, I'll come meet you," and then the first person comes back with "no, we're not going to meet," it just seems a bit, you know.....dodgy. Good luck in your training.

Brett
O.K. That's clear. But so is reality. Saying Bill can come doesn't equal Jack can come.

Saying anyone can come or similar like any denomination etc. I think you will find still has a certain protocol and vetting procedure attatched. It may even be no hats allowed ha, ha.

We are responsible for our own actions. If I called you a worthless deluded fool and then said I'm coming to train with you might think a certain protocol was missing.

In fact if I did so I would expect a no. Reality.

Nos are good. Yes is a sword, no is a sword, accept either I say.

My old teacher had a great way. If someone said they were coming or appeared at the dojo he would introduce himself, listen to them and proceeed to give two examples. He would ask which one they prefered. Right answer they were welcome, wrong answer they were told it's not for them and sent packing.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 07:57 PM   #422
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Sun Tzu in The Art of War speculated on the tactical use of the Pincer movement but advised against trying it, feeling that an army would likely run first before the move could be completed. He argued that it was best to allow the enemy a path to escape, as the target army would fight with more ferocity when completely engulfed....

Puha

Chris
I prefer signposting the way in then those who don't follow the signposts don't make it.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 10:40 PM   #423
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. I give you my rules I follow with regards to meeting anyone. Don't you like them? I would not dare approach anyone in 'challenging' way or in a 'I'll give you this' way. .
Oh, man. I remember George W. Bush telling the terrorists, "Bring it on!"

That's what "Step up to the plate and meet me and learn something you didn't know" means.

Bring it on.

I don't tell anyone that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-07-2012, 10:42 PM   #424
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha, ha, Moscow? Methinks I might need some protection there.

Peace.G.
Hmm. I spent the winter of 2001 in a little village about 30 miles outside Moscow, gathering intelligence for the British government. They suspected that the chemical plant there was producing neurotoxins for export to Britain. I had to check it out.

I could've used someone with your skills there.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-07-2012, 10:50 PM   #425
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
...when someone makes an offer, such as "you can come and meet me," and then someone else responds with "okay, I'll come meet you," and then the first person comes back with "no, we're not going to meet," it just seems a bit, you know.....dodgy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 

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