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Old 06-01-2012, 09:39 AM   #276
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
One guy on the forum advised a pregnant woman to do chin-ups. If you know what pregnancy does to ligaments, not to mention how the weight of the pregnancy is supported by the back (badly), you'll know why everyone on the forum who knew anything dumped all over him. He insisted he was correct and that the woman should do chin-ups.

Should everyone have said, well, that's his truth and it's just as good as any other truth?

Or, people exercise for different purposes, and if she likes chin-ups she should go right ahead?

Or, you can't correct every stupid statement on the internet, so just let it go?.
Do you really think that this is an analogous situation? As in, that Graham's advice, if followed, will predictably and directly lead to serious physical harm?
 
Old 06-01-2012, 09:46 AM   #277
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I don't care what a guy like that says...
So there's absolutely no statement anyone could make in your name, nothing they could be teaching or doing that would cause you to step up and say, "This is not true"?

What if Rushdie said he got the idea for his book from you?

Or that you actually wrote it, or something?

Or a teacher caught molesting children in a class he advertises as Zen Shin Kan Aikido, under Master Graham Christian???

You wouldn't publicly disavow him?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 01:18 PM   #278
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Do you really think that this is an analogous situation? As in, that Graham's advice, if followed, will predictably and directly lead to serious physical harm?
To answer your question literally, no, it's not exactly the same. If it was, I'd be recommending a few folks be banned.

To answer the question I think you were really asking, yes, it's analogous. And if you don't agree, I'm prepared to argue you are not studying budo but some odd, stylized exercise regimen.

Last edited by hughrbeyer : 06-01-2012 at 01:19 PM. Reason: clarity
 
Old 06-01-2012, 02:08 PM   #279
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
So there's absolutely no statement anyone could make in your name, nothing they could be teaching or doing that would cause you to step up and say, "This is not true"?

What if Rushdie said he got the idea for his book from you?

Or that you actually wrote it, or something?

Or a teacher caught molesting children in a class he advertises as Zen Shin Kan Aikido, under Master Graham Christian???

You wouldn't publicly disavow him?
Please, I've answered already. Giving extremes I don't see as useful or relevant. There is always an extreme to which you may or probably would do whatever. So I'm sure we could find examples where I would.

For all who follow or try to follow certain principles life will throw up challenges and situations to test you and your discipline. It's better at it than some empirical heirarchy in my opinion.

In many ways preparing for some test overseen by some 'peers' is much much easier than the tests you will encounter of similar or greater magnitude in life and nearly always unexpected.

I daren't tell you my grading system ha, ha.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 02:37 PM   #280
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Please, I've answered already. Giving extremes I don't see as useful or relevant. There is always an extreme to which you may or probably would do whatever. So I'm sure we could find examples where I would.
Well, that's all I'm looking for.

And the point is that, for a lot of people with a lot of aikido experience, you are that extreme person that we simply have to speak out on.

We do see what you're doing as damaging the reputation of aikido in general as a real martial art, damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art, and possibly damaging your students' chances of ever developing a real understanding of the arts. Also, since some people do seem to give you some credence (few of them, apparently, being experienced aikido people), there is the chance, as Hugh Breyer pointed out, that you can bring real damage to those who follow you.

Not to belabor the differences again, but to point out exactly why so many people comment "against" you. Really, it's not against you, Graham, yourself, but simply against the very strange things you do.

Add to this your authoritative views on IP when you seem never to have experienced it and you can begin to see why the opposition to what you do (including speaking about IP and spirituality) becomes so strong. Mark Freeman indicated that he appreciates what you are, but that what you do does not compare with what Dan does (I think he actually said "Graham is no Dan Harden..."). So it seems that whatever you do, it's not on the same scale of measures we have found with the IP of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa.

In this light, it's easy to see why you wouldn't come out and meet the known teachers or their experienced students.

Personally, such a result would inspire me to meet those teachers.

But you continue precisely as you were.

Having been shown that your Mercedes is a Volkswagen with a new hood ornament, you shrug and say, "Well I have to get back home...in my Mercedes...being a Mercedes owner and driver as I am..." and so on. Plus, arguing the superiority of the Mercedes car....

Does that make sense?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 02:39 PM   #281
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I daren't tell you my grading system ha, ha.
You give ranks?

Somehow, I got the idea that your students don't get ranks at all.

Would you mind telling us your own dan rank?

Or, perhaps as good...what's the highest grade you've ever awarded?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 03:48 PM   #282
Fred Little
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
What if Rushdie said he got the idea for his book from you?
Dear David,

I don't need to ask speculative questions about Mr. Rushdie.

In 1990, I was working for the Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism, Joan Konner, as a speechwriter. She handed me a copy of a publication by ARTICLE 19 and suggested that I read it and then write up a dream-list of questions to ask Salman Rushdie. I did so and gave it back to her. That dream-list was transmitted to his agent, Andrew Wylie, and went from Wylie's office to Rushdie, then at an undisclosed location as a result of the fatwa which had been pronounced upon him and his works.

I was later told by Dean Konner that Mr. Rushdie's decision to (at that point momentarily) come out of hiding for the purpose of speaking at the J-School's 200th anniversary celebration of the First Amendment was a direct response to that list of questions: he felt it was what he wanted and needed to do, given the clear engagement with the spirit of his work evidenced in those interrogatives. And I can assure you, the State Department was none too happy about either his decision to speak, or Dean Konner's acceptance of his offer to speak, or the NYPD's offer to insure his security. For that matter, when Bella Abzug arrived at the event itself and we advised her that the doors would be locked once all the guests were inside and no one would be permitted to leave until the end of the evening, she wasn't too happy about it either. But that's another story.

What if? It's not just an analogy to me. I never exchanged a word with the man directly and never shook his hand, but nonetheless, I'll own that moment with pride for the rest of my natural days, as I will the image of his NYPD helicopter's lights rising through the north windows of Low Memorial Library as he and his security team made their way out of the venue before the doors were unlocked.

And should some student of mine have a part in a similar occurrence in the future? I should be so lucky.

The rest of your examples relate to entirely different sorts of lapses in personal integrity, which I would view as essential failings, rather than as actions with negative consequences, and I do think this is an important distinction.

Similarly, I think that your point about Ueshiba's pre-war and post-war doctrine is a critical one. That point was echoed by Kuroiwa Sensei in his assertion that the choice to refrain from violence has meaning only if one has the capacity to engage in violence. That's too bitter a pill for many to swallow, but there it is.

Be well,

Fred

 
Old 06-01-2012, 05:28 PM   #283
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, that's all I'm looking for.

And the point is that, for a lot of people with a lot of aikido experience, you are that extreme person that we simply have to speak out on.

We do see what you're doing as damaging the reputation of aikido in general as a real martial art, damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art, and possibly damaging your students' chances of ever developing a real understanding of the arts. Also, since some people do seem to give you some credence (few of them, apparently, being experienced aikido people), there is the chance, as Hugh Breyer pointed out, that you can bring real damage to those who follow you.

Not to belabor the differences again, but to point out exactly why so many people comment "against" you. Really, it's not against you, Graham, yourself, but simply against the very strange things you do.

Add to this your authoritative views on IP when you seem never to have experienced it and you can begin to see why the opposition to what you do (including speaking about IP and spirituality) becomes so strong. Mark Freeman indicated that he appreciates what you are, but that what you do does not compare with what Dan does (I think he actually said "Graham is no Dan Harden..."). So it seems that whatever you do, it's not on the same scale of measures we have found with the IP of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa.

In this light, it's easy to see why you wouldn't come out and meet the known teachers or their experienced students.

Personally, such a result would inspire me to meet those teachers.

But you continue precisely as you were.

Having been shown that your Mercedes is a Volkswagen with a new hood ornament, you shrug and say, "Well I have to get back home...in my Mercedes...being a Mercedes owner and driver as I am..." and so on. Plus, arguing the superiority of the Mercedes car....

Does that make sense?

David
Sorry but you are wrong once more and those who react on this point are wrong also. ie: I do not present myself as an Authority on I/P. Therefor if you continue to act and speak as if I do then it is you not I who is carrying on regardless.

I do deliver my communications 'Authoritively' and that is the only connection with authority on that subject I have.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 05:32 PM   #284
Rob Watson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art
Don't need much help there ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 06:15 PM   #285
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I do not present myself as an Authority on I/P. Therefor if you continue to act and speak as if I do then it is you not I who is carrying on regardless.
Wait.

Who started this thread?

Who asserted in the first post:

"I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing."

You conclude here that it really amounts to Nothing. You assert that you know this and in other threads you have asserted that you have met many people with internals and that you understand and do the internal aspects of aiki. Further, you know enough about the spirituality of aikido to say authoritatively that IP is not related to spirituality, that the in/yo ho has no bearing on Japanese concepts of spirituality and that the Chinese paradigms of balancing yin and yang in the body, along with Ueshiba's extensive comments on balancing in/yo (yin yang) in the body are not related to that.....

I don't know. Is there some way we can poll the membership? I think you'll find that most people here perceive your statements to mean that you do understand and practice IP.

Show of hands?

Just saying...it sounds like what you're saying and I think most people perceive you to be saying that.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 06:23 PM   #286
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Don't need much help there ...
I know. I was thinking of that when I wrote it. In general, it's a very vague relationship that comes down a vague flow from a very vague history. Even Mochizuki Sensei used Katori Shinto Ryu sword to explain how aikido is "base on kenjutsu" though Ueshiba did not use KSR in his sword. I'm given to believe that both Ueshiba and Takeda before him were considered extremely good swordsmen but very few after them could begin to understand anything about the sword. And it may be because of that that aikido mastery has declined in the following generations.

Even though I trained a long time with Mochizuki Sensei and his students, including Kyoichi Murai, in kenjutsu, I don't consider myself to understand much about sword. I just know that the intent is not to bang the swords together, but simply to cut the other guy.

Beyond that, based on a comment attributed to Morihei Ueshiba (translated, I think, by John Stevens), I concluded that the thrust is the primary technique of the sword and that the downward cut emerges from the forward thrust. Ueshiba's comment? "The essence of aikido is thrusting with the katana."

But as far as any vestigial reputation aikido has for roots in kenjutsu, I think Graham's Golden Center videos drive a big nail in the coffin...

Just sayin'.....

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 06:45 PM   #287
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Dear David,

I don't need to ask speculative questions about Mr. Rushdie....
Wow. Great story, Doc.

I remember the day I first heard of Salman Rushdie. I came into my office and found a newspaper on the receptionist's desk with a front-page photo of a massive crowd protesting. I saw that the protest was over a book someone had written, that thousands were involved.

As a writer, I thought to myself, "I wish I could write something that would move thousands of people so passionately."

And then I finished reading the caption: "They have vowed to kill the author on sight!"

I almost spewed. I rethought my desire to move people so passionately. Even one person that excited was more than I wanted.

I didn't mean to present Rushdie as a bad example, but just as an example of a lighting rod you might now want to stand to near--or to have crediting you as his inspiration: "I I learned it all from my mentor, Mr. ......."

Leave me off that list!

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 08:13 PM   #288
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Wait.

Who started this thread?

Who asserted in the first post:

"I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing."

You conclude here that it really amounts to Nothing. You assert that you know this and in other threads you have asserted that you have met many people with internals and that you understand and do the internal aspects of aiki. Further, you know enough about the spirituality of aikido to say authoritatively that IP is not related to spirituality, that the in/yo ho has no bearing on Japanese concepts of spirituality and that the Chinese paradigms of balancing yin and yang in the body, along with Ueshiba's extensive comments on balancing in/yo (yin yang) in the body are not related to that.....

I don't know. Is there some way we can poll the membership? I think you'll find that most people here perceive your statements to mean that you do understand and practice IP.

Show of hands?

Just saying...it sounds like what you're saying and I think most people perceive you to be saying that.

Cheers.

David
I give up with you, my last response to you as my English is so bad that you keep mistranslating what is there.

I do practice I/P??? Wow! You actually think anyone thinks that? Don't bother answering as you thinking such things is way beyond me.

Translating that I say I/P Is nothing??? That I conclude that I/P amounts to nothing????

Misread concept once again. There is no secret or mystery about it, you can go out and find someone who teaches it anytime.

I know a side of the equasion of this thread and therefor can say with Authority the other side of the equasion is not the same. This has been spelled out many times in this one thread.

How that equals your above conclusions is beyond me. Our exchanges end here on this thread, I think they have run their course. (from this end anyway)

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 10:55 AM   #289
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The attempts to shut people down that can do what they do in Aikido is obvious. Maybe a threat is perceived. The response seems over the top to me.
Hi Mary.
From what I read on this forum before it seems I missed some phenomenon that happened a few years back and I've heard it referred to as the Ki wars.

On this forum and in the field of Aikido that has never changed and perhaps never will.

My basic view is as you no doubt have heard before that Ueshiba was a very spiritual man who realized the spiritual cause and ways of things and could demonstrate that via Aikido, saying it is merely a manifestation of such.

Beyond that however and the main point I would like to make is that thereafter as Aikido devloped and spread you ended up with two main types. One type emphasized the spiritual or Ki aspects and the other emphasized the physical.

So it appears came about the strange phenomenon of the Ki wars.

The major factor for me is more to do with the type of people each side attracts.

Ki Aikido and and offshoots like yours for example tend to attract more spiritually free people, it resonates more with those kind of people.

The more physical emphasized styles tend to attract the more fighting kind of people.

Thus the physical tend to see the others as weaker and the more spiritual tend to see the physical as brutish and stupid.

These are nice generalizations put simply but I think they will resonate with some.

The problem on the Ki side of things is that by attracting such people the down side is you get a lot of airy fairy unreal folk practicing in various places. It goes with the territory. Now those from the other side of this equation jump on that and hold them up as prime examples, you know the scene.

Now on the other side of the coin you have the problem with the fighting side. The downside here is that it also attracts the control freaks, the mini despots.

Each side has thus it's downside.

Actually now, with I/P you have an influence which will probably atrract both airy fairy and control freaks as it's downside.

Like bad weather it is something you can complain about ad infinitum but you will always get it so it's best to learn how to enjoy it I say.

Just my thoughts.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 11:55 AM   #290
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My basic view is as you no doubt have heard before that Ueshiba was a very spiritual man who realized the spiritual cause and ways of things and could demonstrate that via Aikido, saying it is merely a manifestation of such.

Beyond that however and the main point I would like to make is that thereafter as Aikido devloped and spread you ended up with two main types. One type emphasized the spiritual or Ki aspects and the other emphasized the physical.
Graham, you must have missed me to throw out such a passive aggressive bunch of statements when you just said you were through with this thread.

Frankly, your statement is quite ignorant but I only say so because it appears to be perfectly willful. First, there are no "different types" of aikido. There is just aikido--like there's "just gold". The only question is: "Is it real aikido or a fake?"

But to work with your own classifications, no one could better exemplify the "physical" type of aikido than Minoru Mochizuki, yet he was a deeply spiritual man, deeply educated and respected by people of every nation and he was one of the closest personal friends Morihei Ueshiba ever had.

During the war, he was not a military man but was deputy governor of three provinces in Mongolia, managing many cities. To keep those cities safe from communist army attacks, he trained "folk doctors" and stationed them in the countryside around each city. The hard-working local people would come to the folk doctors with their injuries and ailments, and because the doctors helped them, they developed a great trust not only for the doctors but for Minoru Mochizuki. When communist troops moved anywhere in the rural areas, the locals told the folk doctors, who sent runners to the affected cities. If military action was required to defend the cities, the defenders went out and met the attackers outside the cities, thus sparing the people from street-to-street fighting within their cities.

Sensei built bridges and irrigation systems to uplift the Mongolian people and after the war, he maintained contacts with them. When I lived in Shizuoka, he took in a young Mongolian woman who was studying at the local university and let her stay in the dojo, alerting all the yakuza to leave her alone. She was under his protection.

He received other Mongolians at the dojo as well, and when he came to Alabama in the late 1980s, he gave out some materials for Mongolian rare earth mining concerns to try to uplift the Mongolian economy. He remained a friend to the Mongolian people all his life. He was deeply versed in world religions and esoteric Japanese history.

Why would Morihei Ueshiba favor such a person, famous for his judo and ken jutsu skills? It was simply because Morihei Ueshiba respected very personally powerful people. Think of Tenryu for another example.

But show me one "spiritual" person, with pathetic physical abilities who gained the respect of OSensei.

I don't think you can.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ki Aikido and and offshoots like yours for example tend to attract more spiritually free people, it resonates more with those kind of people.
What does that mean--"spiritually free"???

That, again, is a passive-aggressive shot at people who do yoseikan, yoshinkan, iwama and other styles that maintain excellent aikido technique. Everyone here can see that. Don't you realize that?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The more physical emphasized styles tend to attract the more fighting kind of people.
Graham, it sounds like you've been in a lot more fights than I have. I've never tussled with anyone on the street or elsewhere. The meaning of serious budo is "to stop the fight," but that requires real physical ability. What don't you understand about that?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus the physical tend to see the others as weaker and the more spiritual tend to see the physical as brutish and stupid.
What a bizarre generalization, man. Who do you think sees Koichi Tohei as "weak"?

The fact is that it appears that many of the dojo descending from Tohei did devolve into weakness simply because they did not understand the fundamental truth that Japanese spirituality is based on a union of mind, body and ki. They (and apparently you) believe that we can develop great powers of mind and ki without developing the body to the same degree. And in aikido, this is done through physical aikido technique. The budo way to develop the mind and ki is through the body.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now on the other side of the coin you have the problem with the fighting side. The downside here is that it also attracts the control freaks, the mini despots.
That's a good one, Graham! We had a guy on here not long ago whom I have actually met. My nickname for him was "L'il Hitler" because he is such a control freak. Like you, he likes to talk about concepts like takimiso aiki, defending translations of writings he can't read, demanding universal respect for the authority behind his own lineage while slandering many far greater teachers.

And I can assure you, I have suffered far more cheap shots and opportunistic attempts to injure me in the schools that emphasize their fantasies of "spirituality" over the gold standard of developing the spirit through training the body. Control freaks and cheap shot artists with smug, superior smiles.

You may have all those you want. Ueshiba would not have given them the time of day.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Actually now, with I/P you have an influence which will probably atrract both airy fairy and control freaks as it's downside.
You're killing me, Graham. Again, you assert knowledge of IP. See your own post, two up.

It's an enjoyable read.


David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-02-2012 at 11:59 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-02-2012, 12:38 PM   #291
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Graham, you must have missed me to throw out such a passive aggressive bunch of statements when you just said you were through with this thread.

Frankly, your statement is quite ignorant but I only say so because it appears to be perfectly willful. First, there are no "different types" of aikido. There is just aikido--like there's "just gold". The only question is: "Is it real aikido or a fake?"

But to work with your own classifications, no one could better exemplify the "physical" type of aikido than Minoru Mochizuki, yet he was a deeply spiritual man, deeply educated and respected by people of every nation and he was one of the closest personal friends Morihei Ueshiba ever had.

During the war, he was not a military man but was deputy governor of three provinces in Mongolia, managing many cities. To keep those cities safe from communist army attacks, he trained "folk doctors" and stationed them in the countryside around each city. The hard-working local people would come to the folk doctors with their injuries and ailments, and because the doctors helped them, they developed a great trust not only for the doctors but for Minoru Mochizuki. When communist troops moved anywhere in the rural areas, the locals told the folk doctors, who sent runners to the affected cities. If military action was required to defend the cities, the defenders went out and met the attackers outside the cities, thus sparing the people from street-to-street fighting within their cities.

Sensei built bridges and irrigation systems to uplift the Mongolian people and after the war, he maintained contacts with them. When I lived in Shizuoka, he took in a young Mongolian woman who was studying at the local university and let her stay in the dojo, alerting all the yakuza to leave her alone. She was under his protection.

He received other Mongolians at the dojo as well, and when he came to Alabama in the late 1980s, he gave out some materials for Mongolian rare earth mining concerns to try to uplift the Mongolian economy. He remained a friend to the Mongolian people all his life. He was deeply versed in world religions and esoteric Japanese history.

Why would Morihei Ueshiba favor such a person, famous for his judo and ken jutsu skills? It was simply because Morihei Ueshiba respected very personally powerful people. Think of Tenryu for another example.

But show me one "spiritual" person, with pathetic physical abilities who gained the respect of OSensei.

I don't think you can.

What does that mean--"spiritually free"???

That, again, is a passive-aggressive shot at people who do yoseikan, yoshinkan, iwama and other styles that maintain excellent aikido technique. Everyone here can see that. Don't you realize that?

Graham, it sounds like you've been in a lot more fights than I have. I've never tussled with anyone on the street or elsewhere. The meaning of serious budo is "to stop the fight," but that requires real physical ability. What don't you understand about that?

What a bizarre generalization, man. Who do you think sees Koichi Tohei as "weak"?

The fact is that it appears that many of the dojo descending from Tohei did devolve into weakness simply because they did not understand the fundamental truth that Japanese spirituality is based on a union of mind, body and ki. They (and apparently you) believe that we can develop great powers of mind and ki without developing the body to the same degree. And in aikido, this is done through physical aikido technique. The budo way to develop the mind and ki is through the body.

That's a good one, Graham! We had a guy on here not long ago whom I have actually met. My nickname for him was "L'il Hitler" because he is such a control freak. Like you, he likes to talk about concepts like takimiso aiki, defending translations of writings he can't read, demanding universal respect for the authority behind his own lineage while slandering many far greater teachers.

And I can assure you, I have suffered far more cheap shots and opportunistic attempts to injure me in the schools that emphasize their fantasies of "spirituality" over the gold standard of developing the spirit through training the body. Control freaks and cheap shot artists with smug, superior smiles.

You may have all those you want. Ueshiba would not have given them the time of day.

You're killing me, Graham. Again, you assert knowledge of IP. See your own post, two up.

It's an enjoyable read.


David
Ahhh, I must be missing you, it's love ha, ha. If you are a control freak then it was directed at you and whoever else. If you are not then it wasn't. If I am then it's against myself. As I said, its a generality. You my friend may see it or take it personally, it's up to you.

Nice story about mongolia etc. Nothing to do with what I said but nice nonetheless.

Your 'lil' hitler friend sounds quite cute. Met many like him and like you. What's the big deal?

You don't know what spiritually free means you say and that's obvious and rather accentuates my point.

Maybe I should just call them 'body fixated' people.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 12:38 PM   #292
Mark Freeman
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
We do see what you're doing as damaging the reputation of aikido in general as a real martial art, damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art, and possibly damaging your students' chances of ever developing a real understanding of the arts. Also, since some people do seem to give you some credence (few of them, apparently, being experienced aikido people), there is the chance, as Hugh Breyer pointed out, that you can bring real damage to those who follow you.
Hi David,

once you get your teeth into something, you don't let go do you?

I can't see for the life of me, how Graham can bring real damage to those who follow him. They are adults and they follow through choice, as all aikidoka do their own teachers. How would this damage manifest, physical, mental, spiritual?

Quote:
Add to this your authoritative views on IP when you seem never to have experienced it and you can begin to see why the opposition to what you do (including speaking about IP and spirituality) becomes so strong. Mark Freeman indicated that he appreciates what you are, but that what you do does not compare with what Dan does (I think he actually said "Graham is no Dan Harden..."). So it seems that whatever you do, it's not on the same scale of measures we have found with the IP of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa.
Well David, you are no Dan Harden, and I say that, without having met you yet. Nobody can be someone else. Why would they want to be? As it happens, thats not what I said, for the record, I said:
Quote:
So back to Graham... his aikido is no less martially effective than my own... Which proves nothing, maybe neither of us know what we are doing or talking about...that is possible, but in my trying to be modest mind, unlikely.

Graham is a bit of an anomily though, he is his own man teaching in his own way, using language that means what it means to him, which others may struggle with. And he can demonstrate in the flesh each of the principles he talks about. It's true that you don't meet many aikidoka wearing hats, but I have practiced with Sikhs who wear their hair under a cover as a matter of practice and belief, and both Graham and his friend who joined us later, are no different. What I did get from both of them was their long term committment to following their own path of 'budo is love', finding aikido as their chosen and apt vehicle to attain that goal.

And if I got into a physical skirmish in dear old London town where they live, I would like to have either of them there with me on my side.

Is Graham 'better' than my own teacher? No, but then few are.
Should Graham meet Dan? That is entirely up to Graham and his own choices.
Would Graham benefit from meeting Dan? Probably, I did, but again, personal choice.
Did I learn stuff from Graham? Yes, and I'm pretty sure he got to learn stuff from me too.
I'd happily go back and train with Graham again, as he is a nice guy, with a soft but strong presence.

Overall, a positive experience for me, great to meet such an individual, who walks his talk, and is happy to share what he has. We practiced with both full resistance and non-resistance, and both are happy with the fact that the path of aikido is one of non-resistance.

I hope all of my encounters when I start my travels and explorations are as cordial and productive.
I'm not sure why you have such a strong reaction to all he stands for, why not let him do his thing? We are all in this game, for our own ends, I'm sure if you were ever in London, and you visited Graham, you would receive the same welcome as I did. No doubt you would both enjoy the encounter, and I can't imagine that you both wouldn't come away having learnt something about each other and possibly yourselves. Till then, it's all just hot pixels, padding out a thread.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 01:37 PM   #293
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
To answer your question literally, no, it's not exactly the same. If it was, I'd be recommending a few folks be banned.

To answer the question I think you were really asking, yes, it's analogous. And if you don't agree, I'm prepared to argue you are not studying budo but some odd, stylized exercise regimen.
I have no idea what question you think I was asking, so perhaps you'd better tell me what it was, in actual words, so that I can decide if it is in fact something that I would ever ask. As for whether I did ask it? No, I didn't. The question I asked was the one that I wrote.

Last edited by lbb : 06-02-2012 at 01:43 PM.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 04:15 PM   #294
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

You actually wrote two questions, which were not equivalent. And I have little patience for word games.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 08:01 PM   #295
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahhh, I must be missing you, it's love ha, ha. If you are a control freak then it was directed at you and whoever else. If you are not then it wasn't. If I am then it's against myself. As I said, its a generality. You my friend may see it or take it personally, it's up to you.
No, I don't take it personally, by any means. I took it as an attempt to slur and minimize the importance of IP training by Dan and others who talk about it, including me to the degree that I actually represent any depth of IP, which is not far. But I have felt it and can at least compare it to the many kinds of ordinary aikido I have experienced and I can say certainly that what Dan and Ark teach is definitely far beyond the level of most aikidoka I've ever met.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nice story about mongolia etc. Nothing to do with what I said but nice nonetheless.
Yes, it was directly related to what you said...in the sense that it disproves your claim entirely. Mochizuki was known as a physical player and he had master level rank in several Japanese arts. But his work in the ordinary world was always to protect the people. In this case, he was put "in charge" of a huge chunk of Mongolia and those people became "his people" to protect. And I described that how he did it was on a barely-visible level, requiring very little physical effort and for the most part prevented fighting. And since you clearly can't understand that as high spiritual refinement, I guess you are thinking that spirituality is only having visions and being nice.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Your 'lil' hitler friend sounds quite cute. Met many like him and like you. What's the big deal?
No, Graham. You have never met anyone like me.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You don't know what spiritually free means you say and that's obvious and rather accentuates my point.
No, dude. I know what spiritually free is. I am spiritually free. The question is what do you mean by the term? I can't find anything in your words or actions or in the videos of yourself that indicates that you understand.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Maybe I should just call them 'body fixated' people.
The term you're looking for is budoka.

There must be a translation somewhere....



David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-02-2012, 08:17 PM   #296
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

As I said David, I've met many like you. I understand you see it as you describe. May you continue to do so.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 09:27 PM   #297
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi David,

once you get your teeth into something, you don't let go do you?
If you come down to Birmingham while you're in the US, I'll buy you a steak and you can watch me tear up a salad!

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I can't see for the life of me, how Graham can bring real damage to those who follow him. They are adults and they follow through choice, as all aikidoka do their own teachers. How would this damage manifest, physical, mental, spiritual?
Maybe it's only minor. What harm would it have done me to continue training under the false student of Mas Oyama? I would be living a lie without knowing it....at least that.....but if I then assimilated his philosophies and even followed him when he announced that he had "added judo" to kyokushin and created "kyokushinjukai" or something....maybe it would lead me far, far from respect for truth.

Today I took my seven-year-old son to a rock and mineral show. There must have been a million dollars' worth of geodes, crystals, sliced agate, every kind of gemstone...just tons and tons of beautiful rocks and minerals on display.

My purpose was twofold: to get some nice crystals to improve the feng shui in my home and to get my son several nice samples of minerals and gems for his nascent collection (he loves nascents).

But I noticed something I never saw before until recently. Many displays included "dyed" crystals--low quality stones that had somehow been injected with some kind of dye to impart strange, unnatural but vivid colors.

My boy thought these things were wonderful.

I had to explain to him that they were a waste of money. I had to help him establish the value of natural form and beauty--the power of nature--and guide him to understand the difference. He did get some "rubbing rocks," but after we spent a fair bit of money, we came away with amethyst geodes, quartz crystals, polished tiger eyes, gypsum roses, rose quartz...just beautiful bunches of 'the real thing'.

Of course, there's no way I can influence anyone who attends Graham's classes, but I see aikiweb as more or less a dojo. In a real dojo, often, there's a person who is always there and sometimes you can come to dread going to the dojo because you know that person will be there. Usually, this is someone of higher skill. Those of lower skill and a lot of ignorant opinions can be wearisome to the higher level people, but the one who is dreaded is generally the stronger and far more experienced person. The lower-skilled hates to see that person because it raises the bar for their own performance. If that person isn't there, you can do whatever you want. But when the more powerful and experienced person is around, you have to work hard to keep up (or just keep from puking).

To me (just to be absolutely clear), Graham is offering something "new and different"--dyed crystals which not only are not natural, but which represent the ruin of something that was natural and good. That stupid dye cannot be removed from the dyed stone because it is pressure-injected (as I understand the process).

Have you ever trained in Japan, by the way? Could you imagine Graham walking into a Japanese dojo (a good one--say Iwama or Yoshinkan hombu), with his rasta hat and showing the same stuff he shows on his vids? What do you think would happen?

I'm not seeking out Graham's students. I'm talking directly to him and as you can see, when I play back his own statements, turns out the meaning has changed since he said them....

OK.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Well David, you are no Dan Harden, and I say that, without having met you yet. Nobody can be someone else. Why would they want to be?
You don't have to meet me to know I'm not on Dan's level. That's why I went to try to learn from him. At least I did step up there (as you also did) to at least find out whether you've "been there, done that," as I think Graham has literally claimed somewhere. You know you can't do what Dan does. I know I can't do it. But it seems Graham is convinced the he can do it, even after you met him and judged (by what I read of your statement) that he can't.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
As it happens, thats not what I said, for the record, I said:
"....Would Graham benefit from meeting Dan? Probably...."
I did note that you said Graham's aikido is no less martially effective than your own. That's interesting. But you seem about 1000 times as open-minded as Graham, who seems utterly committed to remaining convinced that there's nothing under the sun he hasn't seen and mastered--including Ueshiba's esoteric Japanese terms and their varying translations.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I'm not sure why you have such a strong reaction to all he stands for, why not let him do his thing?
You mean, let him take those passive-aggressive shots and make those bizarre statements about translations and what Ueshiba really meant without question?

I'm not really stopping him, am I?

But I think it's good for him to have to at least hear some responses to what I consider to be very bad statements from him. If you hit me, your hand should hurt. I remember once a Canadian guy who sat at the edge of the dojo with his feet sticking out onto the tatami. Tezuka Sensei saw this and looked at him like one of the temple guardian statues and told him to pull his feet back. Similar response to a guy sitting on a window sill. He didn't hate the guys, but he clearly thought they should know better, so he looked a bit put out and spoke sharply to them. Part of that was a budo response and part was "just being Japanese." But he was an incredible master, in any case.

That kind of experience pressure-injected budo values into my crystalline structure. I'm not sure what that vivid colorful stuff is in Graham's teaching, but it hits me like seeing him lying down on the mats.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
We are all in this game, for our own ends...
Well, we can have our own reasons for training, but we also have a responsibility to the truth of the art. We are not free to present just anything as "aikido".

I mean....yeah, we're free to do whatever, like the karate guy was free to claim that he was a black belt under Mas Oyama....but the real black belt was not only free to call him on it: as Oyama's real student, it was his duty. And I am glad he did tell my father (I was 17) and get me to come to his classes instead. He gave me a tremendous example of kiai that I can still hear in my heart.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I'm sure if you were ever in London, and you visited Graham, you would receive the same welcome as I did.
I don't doubt that. Graham seems like a nice guy and I'd probably enjoy talking about a lot of things with him, chillin'....heck, I'd even wear a rasta hat (after training, when I'm in my normal Superman attire).

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
No doubt you would both enjoy the encounter, and I can't imagine that you both wouldn't come away having learnt something about each other and possibly yourselves. Till then, it's all just hot pixels, padding out a thread.
I consider Graham to be every bit my equal, as a human being. But I think I'm a better writer. I probably know more about some subjects than he does and he probably knows a lot more about some things than I do. But I do think I'm a more rigorous thinker than Graham and in particular, I know a lot more about Japanese things from A to Z...so I just wish he wouldn't pontificate so smugly about those matters when he clearly doesn't understand them.

And, seriously, I do hope you'll call on me if you get down my way in the USA. It would be my honor to act as your host. Also, if you should encounter troubles on the road, I would hope you would get in touch with me.

Gassho.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-02-2012 at 09:35 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-02-2012, 10:49 PM   #298
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Folks
All things considered....maybe we should let this thread go....... A number of us here that have spoken out about one or more aspects of Graham's approach when talking about IP, that is just one aspect of getting the whole to work as a whole. It is likely we are working with some version of The Six Harmonies in mind. One these versions is:

The body harmonizes with the mind;
The mind harmonizes with the intention
The intention harmonizes with the Qi;
The Qi harmonizes with the spirit
The spirit harmonizes with the movement;
The movement harmonizes with nothingness

After a few exchanges with Graham my sense now of how he looks at what he does and his Spiritual Aikido seems to start with spiritual aspects first,

With nothingness, love, ki and spirit (and maybe another) harmonizing the mind.
With this leading to relaxed body movement,
With this in alignment with spiritual aspects

In any case to me it looks like Graham works from the other end of this than maybe the rest of us do.

How he gets there I am not sure.
I don't know if it works.
I don't know if it holds up.....

but it is his choice.....so maybe just let it ride....let it be.........

Just let it go.......

Gary
 
Old 06-02-2012, 11:46 PM   #299
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I guess it's clear I'm with Orenji on this one. Yeah, it's good to keep perspective; yeah, in the big scheme of things this is a tempest in a teapot; yeah, people are adults; yeah, any harm done is probably very minor.

But the big scheme of things in which none of us amount to all that much is not how we measure our humanity. We can only affect the world in our own scale, and in that scale all these things matter a lot. We're either bending the curve towards truth or falsity. We're either offering true color or false--even if the false look brighter on first glance.

Norms and standards aren't maintained unless they're enforced. I think they're worth enforcing.
 
Old 06-02-2012, 11:56 PM   #300
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Folks
All things considered....maybe we should let this thread go....... A number of us here that have spoken out about one or more aspects of Graham's approach when talking about IP, that is just one aspect of getting the whole to work as a whole. It is likely we are working with some version of The Six Harmonies in mind. One these versions is:

The body harmonizes with the mind;
The mind harmonizes with the intention
The intention harmonizes with the Qi;
The Qi harmonizes with the spirit
The spirit harmonizes with the movement;
The movement harmonizes with nothingness

After a few exchanges with Graham my sense now of how he looks at what he does and his Spiritual Aikido seems to start with spiritual aspects first,

With nothingness, love, ki and spirit (and maybe another) harmonizing the mind.
With this leading to relaxed body movement,
With this in alignment with spiritual aspects

In any case to me it looks like Graham works from the other end of this than maybe the rest of us do.

How he gets there I am not sure.
I don't know if it works.
I don't know if it holds up.....

but it is his choice.....so maybe just let it ride....let it be.........

Just let it go.......

Gary
For what it's worth, I like that very much.
Not sure how helpful this is or how much it relates exactly, but in the context of problem solving I see both the Spiritual and the IP concepts as involving the harmonization of the self with Great Nature. The Other (person) is, in certain respects, moot. Ideally, we harmonize with nature and let the evidence and natural "superiority" speak for itself. So when we have two people speaking differently, hopefully this principle is applied and one forms such a beautifully cohesive and potent message that it stands on its own such that those who might potentially be harmed by the Other's potentially harmful message (even good and truly authoritative messages can cause harm) will see something compelling and cannot help but be moved in a positive direction.
To be clear, I am not speaking of specific people or situations. I also believe we've carried that conversation as far as it can likely go... again.
Still, I do appreciate all the different thoughts shared. It's not always pleasant to read such contentious conversations, but upon reflection I've come to the view that sharing an honest opinion is a kind of gift, and I am grateful to have the chance to gain an insight into the values and judgements of such dedicated people.

Pleasant evening to you all,
Matthew

Last edited by mathewjgano : 06-03-2012 at 12:00 AM.

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