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Old 05-30-2012, 09:51 AM   #226
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Really, if someone wants to continue to believe the world is flat, they certainly have a right to believe that. There are also many out there who will support this belief.

I kinda reached that conclusion a while ago and don't really see the value in continuing to argue with someone that you have such an extreme difference in paradigms.

 
Old 05-30-2012, 10:00 AM   #227
TimB99
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V-8HfEglHI

There we go.. Figured it's time for me to throw in something to think about (Kevin made me do it.. with his flat earth stuff ;p.. Apparently it's quite relevant )

Plus an added bonus in science, for those who are into that

Last edited by TimB99 : 05-30-2012 at 10:03 AM.

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
 
Old 05-30-2012, 10:10 AM   #228
MM
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Don't be just willfully stupid. It was made as a personal attack of a calculated and vicious type. There was no call for it. It was wrong, to begin with. Asking a questionable character to prove his claims has nothing to do with "blaming a woman for being raped because she was wearing a short skirt." And to suggest that it does has no usefulness and no good intent. It's precisely the kind of attitude we very commonly find among people with ineffective aikido. They can't do, so they have to tear down those who can by any means necessary, typically by kuchi-waza, spreading untrue rumors about people, claiming (as some do about Dan) that the person in question will hurt you on the mat and so on.
The weak cannot abide standing next to the strong as, in their eyes, it points out their weakness doubly so. Instead of rectifying the lack and building strength, the weak, instead, take action to undermine the strong. If that fails, then the weak attempt to use other people to remove those that are strong. This allows the weak to appear strong (without the strong present, they are now "strong") and they do not have to face their own faults.

Unfortunately, Modern Aikido tends to attract these kinds of people. By the very nature of "cooperative" practice, the weak force the strong to build a baseline of weakness. Whenever anything strong appears, it must either conform (i.e. undermine strength) or go away (i.e. remove those who are strong) so that these faults (being weak without pursuing change) will not see the light of day.

The weak will group together so that no one individual gets singled out and all keep to an appearance of strength in numbers. They will appeal to higher authorities at any opportunity when things do not go their way. They would rather undermine strength than fix their own faults, would rather make the strong go away than take a long, hard look at themselves to acknowledge the fault.

Spiritually, this kind of character can not progress very far. They will never reach enlightenment. The enclosed, self-team building, cooperative training of the weak character cannot step outside those boundaries until they make an internal change. Without some impetus, this is rarely done. IP/aiki is a catalyst for that change. Not the only one, just one of many.

What's funny is the fallout from this kind of training on other people, most notably the strong. They make a voluntary change in themselves to train cooperatively and "get along" with the group. For the most part, it makes them build character that they might not have ever done. For them, it's a plus. But, again, they are making changes in who they are for a purpose that is more good than bad. The weak have no change, only wanting other people to lower themselves to their level so that they do not have to face the faults in character.

As for Graham ... personally, I'm reminded of "The Sphinx" character from the movie, "Mystery Men".

Mark
 
Old 05-30-2012, 10:14 AM   #229
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
One last story and I let this drop.... Back in the 80's a fellow came out of no where, much like you, claiming skill and expertize. He was using Aikido as a tool to move on to what he really wanted. Aikido got him entrance into an existing community that could provide him with support. As I recall our dojo was ask to support him by having him in for a Saturday class...this was to present him to a new audience. Well he came and conducted class....he brought his own uke and used them only. He would not let any of us touch him.. I tried to grab a wrist and he pulled it back. His skill was kyu level at best. He has moved on to what he really wanted and seems to be quite successful......his Aikido really isn't any better and he never comes out.

He was there seeking acceptance and confirmation.....but not verification or validation by outside sources. This is the same approach you have taken...seeking confirmation and validation on the web and have found some who will. Much like this other fellow you refuse to seek verification and validation from independent sources. Maybe you will end up as successful as he seems to be....

As for politeness and good behavior.....it is like respect....it is given where it is earned and returned..

good luck with it all....

Gary
Thanks for the reasoning Gary. Shame you equate me with such a fellow. I'm not him. I need not or desire not to move into your community especially for your support. So ther'es a couple of differences.
I don't seek your acceptance or your confirmation. So far that makes me nothing like him.

I suggest it's you who feel I should want those things and therefor are confused by the fact I don't.

Politeness and respect ie: good behaviour does not need to be earned. Woah, all badly behaved youth I meet have that opinion.

Let me tell you a story.

A few years ago I had to go do a job at a top school in England called Eton. Now, I may have many views about how lacking the system is or how it isn't fair that those with money get the best quality education etc. etc. Anyway I turned up at the place and worked there for those two weeks repairing and painting windows.

The place was like a throwback to victorian times. There used to be a series caleed 'tom browns schooldays' it was just like that.

Here we had the cream of youth so to speak, it was like a factory churning out the future prime ministers, leaders of industry etc.

You know what? I've never met a bunch of more polite, respectful, well behaved folk in my life. Amazing.

There is no excuse for bad behaviour. This is in my opinion a fundamental difference between those of true budo and class and the 'brawlers' for want of a better word.

Tysons behaviour was thuggish. Lennox had class. Spot the difference.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 10:23 AM   #230
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The weak cannot abide standing next to the strong as, in their eyes, it points out their weakness doubly so. Instead of rectifying the lack and building strength, the weak, instead, take action to undermine the strong. If that fails, then the weak attempt to use other people to remove those that are strong. This allows the weak to appear strong (without the strong present, they are now "strong") and they do not have to face their own faults.

Unfortunately, Modern Aikido tends to attract these kinds of people. By the very nature of "cooperative" practice, the weak force the strong to build a baseline of weakness. Whenever anything strong appears, it must either conform (i.e. undermine strength) or go away (i.e. remove those who are strong) so that these faults (being weak without pursuing change) will not see the light of day.

The weak will group together so that no one individual gets singled out and all keep to an appearance of strength in numbers. They will appeal to higher authorities at any opportunity when things do not go their way. They would rather undermine strength than fix their own faults, would rather make the strong go away than take a long, hard look at themselves to acknowledge the fault.

Spiritually, this kind of character can not progress very far. They will never reach enlightenment. The enclosed, self-team building, cooperative training of the weak character cannot step outside those boundaries until they make an internal change. Without some impetus, this is rarely done. IP/aiki is a catalyst for that change. Not the only one, just one of many.

What's funny is the fallout from this kind of training on other people, most notably the strong. They make a voluntary change in themselves to train cooperatively and "get along" with the group. For the most part, it makes them build character that they might not have ever done. For them, it's a plus. But, again, they are making changes in who they are for a purpose that is more good than bad. The weak have no change, only wanting other people to lower themselves to their level so that they do not have to face the faults in character.

As for Graham ... personally, I'm reminded of "The Sphinx" character from the movie, "Mystery Men".

Mark
That's a very nice summation, I like it. Shame about classing of 'modern Aikido' though like it's all the same. Apart from that, very good.

Don't know the sphinx charachter though so don't know if thats good, neutral or an insult. Either way, it's a nice write up.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 10:56 AM   #231
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Behaviour is an interesting thing. On the spiritual side of all budo and all things you will find it is a must, a discipline of the utmost importance.

Takemuso and virtues was an attempt by Ueshiba to point out this import in my opinion.

All Masters with any class have this quality about them and expect their students to take note and learn from it. Thus spiritually it is very much a part of Budo.

Thus I think you will find those top boys with class didn't go around 'bitching' all the time. They were generally very polite and well mannered. It's not an accident, it's a discipline.

Now some may be opinionated and fierce and 'take no prisoners' but nonetheless would conduct themselves in life and in their communications with others in a respectful manner ie: without insulting or belttling etc.

Thus it is a spiritual discipline. O'Sensei may by some have been known for a fierce temper at times but his behaviour was impeccable. Everyones prone to a bit of frustration now and again.

Thus if you study budo for real you will notice that those who lose their calm, resort to such behaviour, are considered unbudo.

Many talk about budo and are enthralled by it meaning fighting and bravery. However, if I obseRve O'Sensei, Tohei, even Musashi I can but laugh at the thought of them running around complaining and bitching about he said she said blah blah blah. I wonder why?

Even in Toheis situation he found himself in he didn't stand around bitching about it, he left and gave his formal letter of resignation etc. I have no doubt that he saw the amount of bitching going on and on seeing that's no good for him or the organization took a budo course of action. Unfortunate yet the solution was very budo.

In my experience a lack of such virtues shows in and through the performance of the practitioner. Thus another example of the connection and relationship of spiritual, mind, body, action. (or indeed spiritual, mind, body, communication.)

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 11:07 AM   #232
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tim Bergman wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V-8HfEglHI

There we go.. Figured it's time for me to throw in something to think about (Kevin made me do it.. with his flat earth stuff ;p.. Apparently it's quite relevant )

Plus an added bonus in science, for those who are into that
Hmph. Flat earth, indeed.

Basic logic will tell you the Earth cannot be flat.

How can something flat also be hollow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekDWZ...feature=fvwrel



David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #233
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The weak cannot abide standing next to the strong as, in their eyes, it points out their weakness doubly so. ...
That's been my experience for forty years, so far.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As for Graham ... personally, I'm reminded of "The Sphinx" character from the movie, "Mystery Men".

Mark
Ah, yes. The Blue Rajah, wasn't he? And if I'm not mistaken, the actor is Hank Azaria, the voice of Homer J. Simpson...the connections deepen.



Peace!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 11:22 AM   #234
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Behaviour is an interesting thing. On the spiritual side of all budo and all things you will find it is a must, a discipline of the utmost importance.
And the first element of behavior and discipline in martial arts is to pass on the teacher's art exactly as it came from the teacher.

Clearly, whoever taught you does not adhere to Ueshiba's way, but everyone loves to use the name of his art.

You like to talk about spirituality, but your depth of understanding seems similar to your understanding of Japanese language. For instance, now you have twice spelled "takemusu" as "takemuso". We know what you are referring to, but clearly you don't understand the concept any more than you understand the spelling. It comes off as either sloven laziness or just dismal dimness. I can appreciate a dim person much more than one who is just too lazy or egoistic to learn the right way.

What is the right way?

IN AIKIDO, THE OPPONENT IS KILLED AT A SINGLE BLOW!

If you don't know how this is done, it shows shallowness in your aikido.

There is no "fight" but the opponent is killed in an instant.

Now, reconcile that with your "spirituality."

In budo, there is no contradiction.

In Graham Christian....there is no consistency.

Gassho.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 11:45 AM   #235
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Well this was an interesting thread, but it kind of went south overnight. Too bad.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 11:56 AM   #236
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And the first element of behavior and discipline in martial arts is to pass on the teacher's art exactly as it came from the teacher.

Clearly, whoever taught you does not adhere to Ueshiba's way, but everyone loves to use the name of his art.

You like to talk about spirituality, but your depth of understanding seems similar to your understanding of Japanese language. For instance, now you have twice spelled "takemusu" as "takemuso". We know what you are referring to, but clearly you don't understand the concept any more than you understand the spelling. It comes off as either sloven laziness or just dismal dimness. I can appreciate a dim person much more than one who is just too lazy or egoistic to learn the right way.

What is the right way?

IN AIKIDO, THE OPPONENT IS KILLED AT A SINGLE BLOW!

If you don't know how this is done, it shows shallowness in your aikido.

There is no "fight" but the opponent is killed in an instant.

Now, reconcile that with your "spirituality."

In budo, there is no contradiction.

In Graham Christian....there is no consistency.

Gassho.

David
Bless you. No one is killed in Aikido. But I know what you mean. If you would like to refrain from the slurs it would help. If you have a personal grudge then I suggest getting in touch with me via p/m and we can thrash it out.

I fully understand what Aikido is thank you but it's not for me to debate it with you on this thread or until you sort out your problem with me.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 12:53 PM   #237
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus I think you will find those top boys with class didn't go around 'bitching' all the time. They were generally very polite and well mannered. It's not an accident, it's a discipline.
You think? That's because you never met any of them. You give us your fantasies about people we personally knew and things we directly experienced. And this is why most people on here respond to you in ways you find hurtful.

Mochizuki Sensei, for instance, could discuss world history, Judaism, the Bible, Christianity, Buddhism, Yoga, the Kojiki and all manner of esoteric subjects his major students didn't always understand. But Sensei was deep in that. He received a commendation from the Japanese Prime Minister for negotiating a settlement with the Tokyo University students who were occupying the University in the 1960s. He got the French Medal of Culture from the President of France. He got one of two scrolls presented by Morihei Ueshiba (Kenji Tomiki got the other) and O Sensei sent Kisshomaru Ueshiba (whom many called Doshu) to live and train with Mochizuki after the War.

Sensei was quite dignified and very kind, most of the time. And while I never saw him lose dignity, he hated BS, especially in regard to martial arts, including aikido. He would say so and just as harshly as he felt was required to get his point across. Ueshiba could also get furious with people and he could be quite scathing. Jesus, too, was an ace with the snappy comeback.

You are living a total fantasy about such people and their "classy behavior". The Japanese standards for things like that are not the same as the standards you use. The last thing the world needs is more BS fantasies about "the masters" and how the samurai did things....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus it is a spiritual discipline. O'Sensei may by some have been known for a fierce temper at times but his behaviour was impeccable. Everyones prone to a bit of frustration now and again.

Thus if you study budo for real you will notice that those who lose their calm, resort to such behaviour, are considered unbudo.
Can you give us the Japanese form of that "unbudo" term?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Many talk about budo and are enthralled by it meaning fighting and bravery. However, if I obseRve O'Sensei, Tohei, even Musashi I can but laugh at the thought of them running around complaining and bitching about he said she said blah blah blah. I wonder why?
Well, Musashi didn't bitch because he would just knock you out, if not kill you.

I imagine he probably got letters from people like you, correcting him on his behavior, but those letters were never delivered in person.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Even in Toheis situation he found himself in he didn't stand around bitching about it, he left and gave his formal letter of resignation etc. I have no doubt that he saw the amount of bitching going on and on seeing that's no good for him or the organization took a budo course of action. Unfortunate yet the solution was very budo.
It's great that you have such a capacity for "no doubt" about things you were never involved in or even close to. (And can you give us the Japanese term for "very budo"?) But look at the back-stabbing behind Tohei's resignation. It was between him and Kisshomaru, a personal dispute that went back and forth. Tohei didn't leave because it was the budo way, but because Aikikai was the personal property of Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Kisshomaru was very effectively forcing him out, with the backing of most of the aikikai instructors. So please get over the fantasies of what constitutes proper behavior among Japanese budoka.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In my experience a lack of such virtues shows in and through the performance of the practitioner.
Which is what everyone has been telling you about those incredible videos you posted.

Does that start to make sense now? (I'm sure it doesn't.)

If you want to understand "takemusu," you can get it from tai chi, where the ability to put the attacker down decisively is the gold standard. The attacker approaches the tai chi man but cannot reach him. And when he withdraws, he cannot escape the tai chi man. That is the essence of "takemusu," being "tied" to the opponent by ki.

I had a similar experience recently, when a fellow came to my house for the specific purpose of attacking me. He tried to work into a position from which he could attack (we were standing on a porch, about 12 feet above the ground in a space of 5' X 6' (less than 2meters by 2 meters), about one tatami in area.

I felt that he intended to hit me in the head with a right, knocking my head into the door jamb. I felt this in his ki and I also understood (felt) that he had used this method on some older people before. He intended to knock my head against the door jamb with a right, give me a body shot with the left, then another right to the side of my head as I fell, where he intended to kick me several times and flee within one minute of having shown up unannounced. I think he's done this to people before and no one knew who had done it because he came specifically to attack with sudden viciousness and escape.

So I stood in this one-tatami space with this little (#$XX!!!) in a boxing stance, me standing upright with my hands down. I felt his intention and as he maneuvered, I thought, well, I'm going to have to shove this sucker off the porch. And as soon as I thought that, I saw him realize that he was standing with his back to a flight of eleven brick stairs, teetering on the edge with me in front of him. A look of shock and terror crossed his face and I had not even lifted a hand or taken any kind of defensive stance, but he felt his death in his spine. He moved out of what he thought was the danger zone, but the tiny area where we stood was surrounded by iron rails and bricks. I could have slipped his attack, put both hands on his ribs and shoved him into any wall or rail and flipped him over into a void with concrete at the bottom. He kept "maneuvering" and acting like he was looking for an opening, me standing relaxed right in front of him with my hands down, but he couldn't find an opening. I told him to get in his truck and go calm down before he got into serious trouble. He yapped and cursed, but he didn't attack and he did exactly what I told him to.

That ability to feel each other's ki and intention is the meaning of "takemusu," tied together, ki-to-ki, which locks his body to you, as well.

Later, after he had gone, I realized I could still feel that connection and when I mentally "spoke" to him, I could feel that he could hear me, though I had no idea where he had gone. I could feel the connection for days and I felt that he was sweating because he still couldn't shake me from a hundred miles away. Finally, I told him "Get the hell out of here and don't come back or you will regret it." and I felt the connection break and he never came back.

That is Takemusu Aiki. I had the technical ability to destroy him, but I had the philosophical will and spiritual intent to let him live. The choice was his, just like "Should I ram my head into that brick wall, or go have a beer?" I'm sincerely happy he decided to go have a beer and left no mark of death on my door.

That is the experience of an uchi deshi of Ueshiba's uchi deshi.

FWIW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 01:00 PM   #238
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Bless you. No one is killed in Aikido. But I know what you mean. If you would like to refrain from the slurs it would help. If you have a personal grudge then I suggest getting in touch with me via p/m and we can thrash it out.

I fully understand what Aikido is thank you but it's not for me to debate it with you on this thread or until you sort out your problem with me.

Peace.G.
Graham, I have no problem with you. You have a problem in insisting that you claim to know and practice aikido, lecturing to everyone on matters you simply don't understand.

As a teacher, uchi deshi to Ueshiba's uchi deshi, it's simply my duty to call BS when it rears its butt.

I'm sure I'd probably like you as a hang-out buddy, but I would always correct your uneducated statements about aikido and would be glad to show you physically what it means without having to do violence.

Real aikido is as scary as a horrible dragon coming at you out of the mist. It comes at you from inside your own mind. And it only comes into your mind because your mind is so full of untruth. It's simply that and nothing more.

Bless your kokoro.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 01:41 PM   #239
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Graham, I have no problem with you. You have a problem in insisting that you claim to know and practice aikido, lecturing to everyone on matters you simply don't understand.

As a teacher, uchi deshi to Ueshiba's uchi deshi, it's simply my duty to call BS when it rears its butt.

I'm sure I'd probably like you as a hang-out buddy, but I would always correct your uneducated statements about aikido and would be glad to show you physically what it means without having to do violence.

Real aikido is as scary as a horrible dragon coming at you out of the mist. It comes at you from inside your own mind. And it only comes into your mind because your mind is so full of untruth. It's simply that and nothing more.

Bless your kokoro.

David
Good, at last we come to the cause. An uchi deshi of Ueshibas uchi deshi with a duty as he sees it.

Well done for explaining.

I'm sure you would like to show me. If you keep that view however of me you might get a shock or even a pleasant surprise.

There is one thing out of all your protests that is a 'weakness' in my Aikido. The rest is unfortunately based on you never having met me colored with such words as B/S.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 01:45 PM   #240
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Good, at last we come to the cause. An uchi deshi of Ueshibas uchi deshi with a duty as he sees it.
He gave me a personal charge to uphold the truth of aikido.

Quote:
There is one thing out of all your protests that is a 'weakness' in my Aikido. The rest is unfortunately based on you never having met me colored with such words as B/S.
It does appear that the argument has boiled down to IS vs BS.

Cheers.

David

Last edited by akiy : 05-30-2012 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 01:58 PM   #241
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
He gave me a personal charge to uphold the truth of aikido.

There is one thing out of all your protests that is a 'weakness' in my Aikido. The rest is unfortunately based on you never having met me colored with such words as B/S.
It does appear that the argument has boiled down to IS vs BS.

Cheers.

David[/quote]

It does appear that way to you.

It does to me too if B/S means Budo Spirituality.

Here's a nice chinese saying for you which will suit your use of communication. In English: 'He talks rubbish in eight directions'

I'm sure you can use it on your 'quest'.

Have fun.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 02:00 PM   #242
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Might I suggest you two have exhausted your arguments?
We all get it. Nothing is to come of it unless you meet.
Can we go back to the topic now?
Dan
 
Old 05-30-2012, 02:09 PM   #243
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Yes please. Dan, did you really just say that? I'm impressed. Nice to be on the outside for once. ha, ha.

Yes, for the sake of the thread and anyone who has things to discuss on the subject, carry on.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 02:36 PM   #244
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Gotta commend some of yall for incredible display of patience towards some people here. Jeez, it is out of control.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #245
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Mat
I guess we can discuss energy being random, unidirectional and less functional, or a more pure form of constant motion that leaves one stable and supported. It is NOT all the same. Nor is the spiritual path to mind and body in creating power.
Dan
Hi Dan,
Would you be willing to go further into this idea of constant motion that leaves one stable and supported?
Is this the same kind of thing as motion in stillness...possibly related to the feeling of lines unfolding in my body when I'm trying to be extended-but-relaxed in my kamae? Or, if none of that...what?

Also, how do you view this energy as relating to spiritual efforts?
Any further thoughts you'd be willing to share would be appreciated!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-30-2012, 02:44 PM   #246
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Might I suggest you two have exhausted your arguments?
We all get it. Nothing is to come of it unless you meet.
Can we go back to the topic now?
Dan
I don't know if you ever heard this one:

tofu no kado ni atama butsukeru shinjimai.

I agree that this has gone as far as it can.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 02:58 PM   #247
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
Would you be willing to go further into this idea of constant motion that leaves one stable and supported?
Is this the same kind of thing as motion in stillness...possibly related to the feeling of lines unfolding in my body when I'm trying to be extended-but-relaxed in my kamae? Or, if none of that...what?

Also, how do you view this energy as relating to spiritual efforts?
Any further thoughts you'd be willing to share would be appreciated!
Take care,
Matt
The Japanese spirituality is much closer to a physical thing than a philosophy.

They don't see the spirit as being a separable thing from body/mind, with laws drastically different from those of the human body and they don't assign it qualities like Christianity does. It is essentially to unite Heaven and Earth through the human body: Heaven-Earth-Mankind (to avoid the sexist "Man"). And Heaven-Earth-Mankind means to unite yin and yang (in/yo) in the human body. It does not mean to obey various superficial behaviors of niceness and such. It's far less abstract than it is physical since it refers more to the mental/physical nature of ki in the body than to a substanceless, independent energy that can be "me" after the body dies. I don't believe the Japanese see the individual as continuing to exist in a separate form after death, but that the spirit of the individual re-assimilates with the cosmic oneness. And it doesn't mean that people behave by a set of rules. Instead, proper action depends on the moment and the situation. You might have to kill, you might be able to show mercy. Neither is a violation if it is "proper" for the moment. For instance, there's the story of "misplaced benevolence," in which an enemy army is crossing a river. One of the commanders urges the General to order the archers to decimate the enemy while they are bogged down in the river. The General says, "No, that wouldn't be fair. Let's let them cross over and then slaughter them fairly, like men." Of course, the benevolent General and all his troops are destroyed by the enemy they allowed to cross.

To say that budo is love reflects that it is trained not for the individual's personal benefit, but for the benefit of his family and his people. It is a service performed for the common good and it may well mean destruction of the enemy. But we don't do it for the sake of destruction of enemies, but for the love of our families and nations.

As to the technical details, I don't pretend to understand what Dan talks about--only that the little bit I got from him and others has let me glimpse inside the doorway of IP, given me quite a boost, but left me needing to learn much, much more before I can really get anywhere with it.

Cheers.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 05-30-2012 at 03:01 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 04:27 PM   #248
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham This is big time stuff here.....any man in this country is at the effect of any woman who decides to make statements like this that lead to follow on statements that can spiral out of control and can cause immeasurable damage to a man's life. Even if cleared it leaves a stain. I doubt that you could find any American male making statements about women on this forum that carry the same accusatory effects as the one directed at a male earlier in this thread.
Honestly, Gary, I think this is quite a stretch. An analogy was made -- one using loaded terms, sure. I can understand the emotional response. But there's a difference between saying "Your mode of argumentation is similar to those who accuse a rape victim of having 'asked for it'" and saying "You are accusing a rape victim of having 'asked for it'", much less "You're a rapist" -- nor is it a small difference. it's disingenuous to on the one hand berate people for failing to understand the semantic nuances in your argument, and on the other hand fail to make this distinction.

Last edited by lbb : 05-30-2012 at 04:33 PM.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 05:14 PM   #249
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi David,
That's very in keeping with what little I've learned through the Jinja Shinto of Tsubaki OKami Yashiro. If I am not mistaken, there is a large emphasis on developing intuition; of harmonizing with the heartbeat and breath of kamisama to understand correctness...one must look to Great Nature to understand the way of being virtuous. "A time for every purpose under the sun," comes to mind.
Coincidentally, I think it's interesting to consider the role of the breath and heartbeat for understanding the powers of the universe. Maybe some day I'll have more than vague notions...study study study, I guess. Seems like it would be very fun to be able to embody the universe.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-30-2012, 05:20 PM   #250
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Honestly, Gary, I think this is quite a stretch. An analogy was made -- one using loaded terms, sure. I can understand the emotional response. But there's a difference between saying "Your mode of argumentation is similar to those who accuse a rape victim of having 'asked for it'" and saying "You are accusing a rape victim of having 'asked for it'", much less "You're a rapist" -- nor is it a small difference. it's disingenuous to on the one hand berate people for failing to understand the semantic nuances in your argument, and on the other hand fail to make this distinction.
Mary, you make some good points and I appreciate your dispassionate manner in making them.

But...where is the need to bring that yardstick into the discussion?

As Gary points out (or as I understood him to be saying), just bringing those terms into the conversation tends to shut the male down right away. It's like playing the race card. Once that comes up, you can quickly get wrapped up in a mess that will stick to you. So the disingenuous woman can bypass all truth and reason and just shut down the discussion by bringing up the subject as Mary Eastland did. It was a low and unworthy comment and it merits an apology.

On the other hand, it was a bit unusual for her to go so far. So maybe it was just a bad choice of words. A very, very bad choice.

Someone recently told me, "You are a Christian. You believe in forgiveness. I don't."

Well, I do believe in forgiveness. I'm not really mad at her, but I felt it deserved some really harsh and inescapable confrontation to underline how seriously wrong it is to make a statement like that. As someone pointed out about the Nazi card, when you fling that about too easily, it minimizes the real evil of the Nazis.

When a woman resorts to comments as were made, she is actually using rape as a tool, herself.

That's what really made me mad.

Graham, for whatever else he may be, is a man and he can stand up for himself as a man without someone comparing him to a rape victim in a short skirt. It metaphysically neutered him in her attempt to neuter me. Really just unbelievable.

So thanks for your comments as well as your understanding.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 

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