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Old 06-04-2012, 05:55 PM   #51
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Wow - I wonder if that's part of Google's personalization settings, it comes up fine for me.
That's not Google. Just some very long ago French courses.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Anyway, I still think that gold is "or", not "argent"...
Yeah, gold is or and argent is money but how fluid those two are in actual usage, I don't know.

FWIW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 06-04-2012, 05:57 PM   #52
David Orange
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
pont = bridge
d' = contraction of de before a vowel = of. The particle de is just the way to express the genitive. Like jus d'orange = juice of orange = orange juice.
argent = silver (money is a derived meaning)
monnaie = coins
or = gold

French is one of the languages everyone in the Netherlands learns for some years in school (4 years in my case). My French is good enough to manage on vacation, but I would expect that Tom speaks French fluently as he obviously lives in France. Also, his name is Dutch or Belgian, which suggests he also learned French in school even if he moved to France as an adult.

Still, pont d'argent is simple to translate, and I'd expect any French translator to translate it as either silver bridge or money bridge, depending on the context.
I don't see how it could be bridge money (whatever that means). I think bridge money would be argent de pont.
Yeah, I think "money bridge" is closest.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 06-04-2012, 06:06 PM   #53
Chris Li
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's not Google. Just some very long ago French courses.

Yeah, gold is or and argent is money but how fluid those two are in actual usage, I don't know.

FWIW

David
Ah, I got it - I thought that you were getting different results out of Google Translate.

Of course, "pont d'argent" and "silver bridge" (in this case) are both translations from the Japanese 銀の橋 - which is a play on the Floating Bridge....

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-04-2012, 08:03 PM   #54
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Are you sure? I tried the link (which runs the entire page through Google Translate), and I tried plugging just that phrase into Google Translate directly, and they both translated the phrase correctly - "Silver Bridge".

And wouldn't "gold" be "or"? (of course, it's been a long time since high school french ).

Best,

Chris
You are correct, argent is of course silver.
I did not put in the phrase for translation, was just reading the translated page as you had linked it.
On that page "Bridge money" and "golden bridge are mentioned in two following sentences.

It is not an important point, just thought it was curious to see google translate in an incorrect way, while the topic was Untranslatable Words.

Tom
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:11 PM   #55
Chris Li
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
You are correct, argent is of course silver.
I did not put in the phrase for translation, was just reading the translated page as you had linked it.
On that page "Bridge money" and "golden bridge are mentioned in two following sentences.

It is not an important point, just thought it was curious to see google translate in an incorrect way, while the topic was Untranslatable Words.

Tom
Ah...in the quotation - must be a Google Translate quirk, the title "Silver Bridge" came out OK. Still have a little bit of time before translators are taken over by Google too

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-04-2012, 08:23 PM   #56
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
pont = bridge
d' = contraction of de before a vowel = of. The particle de is just the way to express the genitive. Like jus d'orange = juice of orange = orange juice.
argent = silver (money is a derived meaning)
monnaie = coins
or = gold

French is one of the languages everyone in the Netherlands learns for some years in school (4 years in my case). My French is good enough to manage on vacation, but I would expect that Tom speaks French fluently as he obviously lives in France. Also, his name is Dutch or Belgian, which suggests he also learned French in school even if he moved to France as an adult.

Still, pont d'argent is simple to translate, and I'd expect any French translator to translate it as either silver bridge or money bridge, depending on the context.
I don't see how it could be bridge money (whatever that means). I think bridge money would be argent de pont.
Now you are flattering me ! My French is really not that good and far from fluent. French was not my favorite language at school.

As far as the google translation is concerned; bridge money does not really make any sense to me either, so I just guessed it was sort of a direct translation of pont (bridge) and argent (money - and that not even being correct).

But it does show I think how easy things get lost in translation or get mixed up. Something we should always keep in mind when we read a translation of an originally Japanese text on Aikido.

Tom
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:48 PM   #57
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba: Untranslatable Words

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Even though it is my own post this rang a bell for a further thought.
Why can't everyone do this stuff?
It's basic....yet shodan to Shihan...you can't do it.
Why?
The answer and the solution, should unite us in friendship, not divide us.
Dan
Dan,
It may not be bad teaching. In the early eighties Tamura sensei did explain the things that he did. And he gave personal instruction, I practiced many times with him - Tamura sensei usually being uke. Could not move him either in the beginning (very frustrating!!!). I remember how he instructed about the scroll of the tiger, it was an eye-opener to me, but quite a number of people complained about these teachings; they felt that they did not get a proper training and these simplistic sums did not make any sense to them. They walked out - how can a teacher teach a student that walks out of the door? Next seminar they would be there again, doing their same old rough stuff.
Another problem was the growing number of participants. The teaching may not have been intrinsically bad, but how does one reach 300, 400 or even more students in one class?
Tom
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