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Old 05-08-2012, 02:31 PM   #26
Noreaster
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

These comparisons between different arts are getting old and posts such as this have no substance. How many times have we heard ‘this martial art is better because’ or ‘this martial art is no good because of this.’ It seems some juvenile folks are searching for some perfect secret fighting style that will enable them to open a can of whoop @ss on all who would confront them. Well here is a little secret….no matter what art you study if you do not have heart you will always come up short regardless of what art you study be it BJJ, Aikido, Judo, Sambo, Krav Maga, Hapikido, Karate, etc.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:38 PM   #27
Michael Hackett
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Thanks to this video I now see the error of my ways. All these years studying aikido and all the decades using Koga's practical aikido as a police officer successfully were worthless and I now see the light of truth, justice and The American Way. I will quit aikido immediately, hide in a corner, and play my ukelele.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:41 PM   #28
gregstec
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
you talking to ME?
No, it is 'Yo, youse talkin ta me'

oops, sorry, that's south Philly; pretty much the same as Brooklyn though

Last edited by gregstec : 05-08-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:51 PM   #29
Michael Hackett
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

The cheesesteaks are better in Philly.....

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:53 PM   #30
jackie adams
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Cognitive dissonance is a bitch!

BJJ/MMA taught me alot as an Aikidoka. It taught me that I really did not understand alot of things about fighting and the application of fighting and martial methodologies. So far that most valuable lesson in life...THANK you BJJ/MMA.

Now, on that note, I STILL do and practice aikido. and there is a reason for that. Given correct training and the correct perspective and understanding of why we should and do train in aikido. it is a very good methodology for training.

The problem lies in the fact that many in our practice of AIkido do not understand these things and go out and write checks they cannot cash. It really is as simple as that and their failings do not prove or disprove the practice of Aikido..for the right reasons.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
This wasn't a problem for me. I got my ass handed to me by a BJJer so I started studying BJJ. So now I can competently handle the criticism. Problem is...too many people want to make excuses and find out ways to avoid going outside of their comfort zones.

Not saying everyone should go out and study BJJ, but if you want to gripe about it and it is an issue for you...then maybe some time with a guy that is good with takedowns and figuring out how to answer the problem set is time well spent. Just saying.
Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
This video? This is a judo shiai. Why would anyone expect an Aikidoka to do better than a ranked Judoka in a Judo shiai?
Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Tho only embarrassing thing that I see here is that anyone would make such claims about aikido,let alone judging from a video such as this.Each aikidoka has his own level of ability,training and choices to be judged by but they don't reflect on aikido as an martial art or it's effectiveness.By the way,every aikidoka who respects himself has a cool ponytail.Hahaha!
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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I agree with the idea that this wasn't a serious attempt at sparring. Rather than feel ashamed at his performance, I like that he was trying some things out and working on his "game." Unless there is more information about the guys involved it's hard to pass judgement on his training...and the judo guy was pretty good sized and in good shape, which accounts for quite a bit. The Aikidoist never seemed to really try and seize control like the Judo guy did. So the questions I have are related to the idea that I didn't see any major attempts by the Aikido guy. Perhaps he was trying something very specific that was hard to see. I kept wishing there was no music so I could hear what they were saying.

Failure is a chance to work toward success. It looked very one-sided, but let's suppose this is a video of a shodan Aikidoka training with a sandan (for the sake of argument; not that rank is a valid marker for success, particularly in interdisciplinary randori). Even if he's a very highly ranked Aikidoka with a first year Judoka, as it was pointed out, this doesn't reflect on me or anyone else. I have a similar response when people talk about the decline of Aikido: "Is your training declining?"

There will always be people like me who make their chosen practices look bad in some way; de facto lessening the overall quality to some degree. What matters is how each of us engages our own training; not how others engage theirs. I have no problem with people thinking Aikido is a weak art full of [insert derogatory remarks here]. I'm confident there are folks who are dedicated to doing very serious work and creating very serious quality. Let's look to those examples when we try to define Aikido in the context of other arts.
Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The aikidoka that see no value in having a midlevel judoka (or fill in your fave/feared MA/venue) dump them are the ones you have to worry about.
Hello to everyone, even those mad at me. I hope the anger directed at me will recess, seeing the value in my comments to discuss ways to improve Aikido's paradigm. I will take your criticism to heart in improving my communication skills. The quotes at this point are the ones I liked to highlight for myself.

Of those angered by my comments and have expressed them, may I ask some sincere questions to you:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.

Last edited by jackie adams : 05-08-2012 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:57 PM   #31
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.
How can you be embarrassed and shamed by actions of another?

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 05-08-2012 at 02:58 PM. Reason: fixing quote

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:59 PM   #32
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.
How much experience do you have with Aikido....How much experience do you have with any Martial Art?

William Hazen
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:44 PM   #33
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

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Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello to everyone, even those mad at me. I hope the anger directed at me will recess, seeing the value in my comments to discuss ways to improve Aikido's paradigm. I will take your criticism to heart in improving my communication skills. The quotes at this point are the ones I liked to highlight for myself.

Of those angered by my comments and have expressed them, may I ask some sincere questions to you:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.
Some thoughts:

1) Don't be in the contest in the first place. Aikido is not for any kind of fight that you choose to be in.

2) Step in and slam the Judo player with a yokomenuchi to the temple, or a shomenuchi to the forehead, or a series of these, to try to get him to raise an arm to defend himself. If he does so, do whatever you want to him.

3) Give the Judo player a sharp knife and tell him he has to really want to win this one.

4) Tell the Judo player you are absolutely not going to fight only him - you will take on a minimum of three Judo blackbelt.s if anybody hangs back their team is disqualified.

5) Walk into the gym with a six-pack of beers and then look at it and exclaim "Hey! How did my hakama just turn into a six-pack of beers! Aw geez. Look I am going to need some help finishing this six-pack off. Want to help?"

I have no idea if any of these would work, but I am really tired of seeing Aikidoka standing there in front of a sport combat guy, waiting for a clean, committed attack that they can do a technique on.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:05 PM   #34
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

The Aikido gentleman was caring a bit of extra weight...that does not mean he is out of shape.

We have no idea what the intention of the video is. It does not look like a contest to me or a fight. It looks like a couple of guys trying some stuff out.

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Old 05-08-2012, 04:19 PM   #35
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
How much experience do you have with Aikido....How much experience do you have with any Martial Art?

William Hazen
Mr. William Hazen. I will be glad to answer your questions kindly. I thank you for taking so much interest and placing so much interest in me. As a humble person, I hope I will not disappoint you. The later part of 17 years Aikido under two Sensei's. First one I can't name that sensei for personal reasons, no use working up the past. Second one was Hector Suarez. Who I considered to be a great sensei. I also studied under a friend of Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. I had the honor to meet and be trained by "The Jet" on many occasions. At the time it was called kick boxing, I was a competitive fighter for many years in my youth. To enhance my kick boxing skills I took many seminar opportunities to learn Muay Thai during those years. I took jujutsu under the late K.Yonezawa back when he was teaching seminars yearly down in San Diego. I learn some Vietnamese Shaolin Kung Fu under a friend Chien Nguyen who was a monk at the time in a temple, for about 2 1/2 years. In my younger days, I was a rebel who like to street fight as well. Until one day when reality slapped me in the head.

I was shot at, missing me. Being threatened, with a Buck Knife 120 General in the hand of ill intentioned field worker and backed up by friends. Yes, I honestly didn't know the women I slept with was his wife. He had justified cause. But all of those guys did regret their error to threaten me with violence.

The fighting with bikers back in the day was also not a good idea. No matter how many you beat they keep looking for you, now-a-days they just pull a gun and kill you, they don't waste their time fighting anymore. New generations have no sense of sport. The later generations of bikers are more violent today than back in the day. What meth will do to you, ugly. How the world changes. All of which lead to my enlightenment, I wasn't immortal. I lived a violent life, it was unproductive. I was always fighting or ready to fight.

Overtime, I knew my luck someday would run out, I would make a mistake and it would cost me my life, or I would end up in prison. Something I see happen to many old tigers. It was suggested to me I take Aikido because it would kept me out of trouble, the focus wasn't on fighting but refining a skill. Maybe because I was older I really got into Aikido, and appreciated what Aikido offered. Aikido did appeal to the fighter in me, little did I know it would curb that spirit. It was years later did I realize how it challenged that fighter spirit away from violence to challenging myself.

How about you, please share your personal experiences and background, I would greatly enjoy hearing from you, I will be looking forward to your comment on the questions I asked too. In the spirit of Aikido, have a great day.

Last edited by jackie adams : 05-08-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:27 PM   #36
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
The cheesesteaks are better in Philly.....
psst, I got a news flash for you - there are no real cheesesteaks, nor hoagies, outside the Philly area - the secret is in the role -

Greg
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:57 PM   #37
gregstec
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Jackie, where do you see anger in any of the responses? I did not see any, just some folks questioning your points and motives in this thread. To be honest, I am very confused about your motives as well - you comes across way too polite and formal for this informal type of forum to the point it appears condescending to me, your background just does not jive with your communications persona, and until I read the info on your background, I would have swore you were female and not male simply based on the way you come across in your posts (no sexism intended here folks, so don't jump on that since Jackie is more a female name than male)

Anyway, to me, you appear to be an enigma that is hard to follow.

Greg
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:04 PM   #38
jackie adams
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

William, may I continue, As I am on the roll with my life story, I am not injury free either. Fighting isn't like in the movies where you don't get hit or hurt. Laundry list of injuries, broke nose several times, broken hand, bruised intestine, crack ribs, joint damage to tendons from being torqued on, eyes swollen shut, broken toes, bruised hands, feet and ribs, tail bone broken, cracked and missing teeth, broken lip (to many times to count) that is deformed, bruising on face and body from being punched and kicked, concussions, a bit missing from my tongue. That is just from training.

Injuries from street fighting paralleled training injuries, but more severely. I was never KO'd in a street fight. I have been cut too, several times, got a few lovely scars. Hit by secondary weapons, a bat for example. Hit by nunchucks in a street fight. Been hit by a fist holding a roll of quarters. Fought people high on drugs, cocaine and PCP to be exact. Yes, violence has it's price. No one really wins. I take lots of meds. I have an eye I can't see out of very well, I had nerve damage, my hand trembles. The right eye socket was broken. Makes for a pretty face. I call my injury scars tattoos, I do have a tats on my fore arms. I don't have the best knees in the world. My body is 10 year older than it should be because of fighting. Staying in shape and good health helps too. I can only run a few miles at time on a treadmill to keep from destroying my knees.

I am sure you would also like to know that I am gay. I feel saying am gay is still taboo in the martial arts. Though I have never been attracted to my training partners. I was in the closet for years. I never enjoyed sex with women, it never felt right. I was never really turned on my a naked woman. In those days when I was in the closet, there wasn't the support as there is now. I think if I had the support I wouldn't have fought so much in my youth. Aikido helped with coming out, and to be honest with myself.

Funny when you are asked a question, and you don't intend to share much, you end up sharing more than you thought you would. I am glad though, maybe more than I needed to, putting me at the mercy of the flamers. Never the less it feels good to share. Thank you William Hazen.

Last edited by jackie adams : 05-08-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:19 PM   #39
Michael Hackett
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Greg, I grew to love Philly cheesesteaks while stationed there, but found a great rival at Elsie's in Red Bank, NJ - it IS the roll!

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:27 PM   #40
Gorgeous George
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

I think this video raises some very valid points about aikido:

The inability of the aikidoka to counter the judoka, or throw him.

The insistence by some in this thread, that aptitude in what aikido is supposedly teaching you, is irrelevant.

Why are you practicing controlling people who grab you, if you ultimately...can't control someone who grabs you?
You can talk about your high-minded philosophy of not caring about winning and losing, and how you don't want an ego - but if that's true, you would be willing to spar/compete, completely content in the knowledge that it doesn't matter if you win or lose.

Seems to me, a lot of people take solace in aikido, because they'll never truly be challenged - and even when their supposed skills ultimately fail, they then hide behind a nonsense about it not mattering...how can it not matter?: you've spent years learning to do something, and you just found out you never learned it - you've wasted your time.

I see peoples' gradings - intermediate kyu, and even dan grades - and i'm frequently shocked, and embarrassed by the things people get away with; a lack of any real ability - not in 'fighting', but in the things these people are supposedly working to learn within a pre-rehearsed kata - is apparent, and yet nobody sees this as a problem (presumably because of enlightenment, or some such thing...).
Let me ask this: where does growth come from, without hardship?

You can learn more about your ability in five minutes of judo/BJJ sparring, than in five months of a lot of aikido styles - if you're truly humble, rather than someone determined to hang onto their delusions through meaningless platitudes: 'I don't want to learn to fight.', etc..
Many people were attracted to aikido through stories of the early days, when aikidoka showed they were the real deal by supposedly throwing skilled judoka - nowadays, ability in the things you're supposedly learning, is irrelevant...
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:35 PM   #41
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Greg, I grew to love Philly cheesesteaks while stationed there, but found a great rival at Elsie's in Red Bank, NJ - it IS the roll!
Red Bank is close, but still not the same - I did some time in the area in 73 at fort monmouth for crypto school; still went home on the weekends for the cheeesesteaks (and to see the girl friend)

greg
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:21 PM   #42
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

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Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
William, may I continue, Thank you William Hazen.
Your Welcome. Me not much...In short... 42 years in the Martial Arts...Tang So Doo with Chuck Norris when I was a boy (Yes that Chuck Norris), Judo,Karate,Wrestling, and Boxing when I got older, Airborne Ranger on Active Duty and Special Forces in the Reserves and then a break till I got sober and stopped brawling. For the last 22 years Aikido Shoji Nishio Ryu and exploring various other arts to improve and enhance my Aikido. Hoping to learn better Aiki one of these days soon.

There we've compared Johnsons ...Now you've been in Aikido for a while and your telling me that it's not Martially Effective? Well then with all due respect your Aikido sucks and I respectfully disagree that it's Aikido as an Art that sucks. That being said to us Aikido must be effective against other Arts or it's not a budo it's (A Shoji Nishio used to say) "just dancing"

Granted in my experience it takes allot of hard work to be considered competent much less good at Aikido (or any Martial Art) and most folks don't have the gumption or want to put in the work. But there are plenty who have and some who really focus on making Aikido "work" against other Martial Arts for example Chris Hein and some others who have posted on this thread.

So can you help me... as I am confused. You posted one video...Stated Aikido does not appear to "work" and yet there appears to be a disconnect between your experience and your opinion. Would you mind clarifying this for me.

William Hazen
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:06 PM   #43
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Considering who the Judo guy is, I bet he was around the 10% of what he is capable. Were this a real fight the Aikido guy would be out in 0.2 without knowing what happened to him.

And what Kevin said in #12
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:08 PM   #44
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

"Discuss the ways to improve Aikido's paradigm" sounds like the sort of thing you'd hear in a death-by-Powerpoint presentation...but assuming that it does have some meaning and that that meaning has something to do with improving aikido, I think you've chosen the wrong venue. Perhaps you should get involved in a teaching committee or something of that nature, if you want to sound a call to action.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:39 PM   #45
Aikibu
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Tohei over 50 years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-0RFvgy7-0

Notice the difference? Center... Balance...Stance....Irimi...Control...and this was old timey stuff with no atemi.

Now James if I had posted this and then said Aikido was superior to grappling would that be accurate?

Of course not.

The tools are only as good as the master who wields them.



William Hazen
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:00 PM   #46
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

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Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Mr. William Hazen. I will be glad to answer your questions kindly. I thank you for taking so much interest and placing so much interest in me. As a humble person, I hope I will not disappoint you. The later part of 17 years Aikido under two Sensei's. .
I'm confused... according to your introduction post you have been training in aikido for 10 years not the later part of 17...
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:19 PM   #47
Janet Rosen
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
The cheesesteaks are better in Philly.....
Um.... sorry....people from Brooklyn know better than to recognize a cheesesteak as something to be desired, or eaten.
Pizza. Pasta fagiole and baked ziti. Deli. Chinese. Middle Eastern. Fresh seafood. Those are foods.
Sheesh.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:30 PM   #48
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Jackie wrote:

Quote:
1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.
1. Teach me to screw a nail with a screw driver.
2. Can you screw a nail with a screw driver?
3. What are the major faults as to why you can't screw a nail with a Screw Driver?

Jackie, no anger at all here...just trying to demonstrate the flawed logic you are using. Wrong methodology (tool) for the wrong job.

So you want to defeat an judoka using Aikido? It is also like saying lets go bow hunting with a shotgun.

Judo and Aikido are both forms of jiu jitsu at their base level...both deal with controlling center and dominating your opponent in some fashion. So, based on the agreed upon context of practice....just like the screw driver as a tool, develop specifiicity for it's intended job (context)...judo and Aikido are no different.

Now, as a martial artist if you ask me how do I use the principles of aikido, that is an entirely different question. tehnique wise, looking at a video...a good judoka will use the exact same principles, but it will look like good judo. Just like you can use aiki prinicples to hammer a nail with a hammer and screw a screw with a screwdriver.

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Old 05-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #49
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Some thoughts:

5) Walk into the gym with a six-pack of beers and then look at it and exclaim "Hey! How did my hakama just turn into a six-pack of beers! Aw geez. Look I am going to need some help finishing this six-pack off. Want to help?"

I have no idea if any of these would work, but I am really tired of seeing Aikidoka standing there in front of a sport combat guy, waiting for a clean, committed attack that they can do a technique on.
#5 is the best advice I have heard in a long time Cliff!

I've gotten quite adept at "setting" guys up for this kinda thing. Not just Aikido guys, but JKD, TKD, etc. Anyone that trains in a non-grappling based art. No different realy than what the Gracie's did in UFC 1 really.

How does this continue to work after all these years? It is not that BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is necessarily "BETTER" than any other martial art. It is simply that BJJers of GJJers have a keen understanding of the standard "fight" environment....better than most. They understand the "ruleset" in which most people will agree to fight under, and they practice the range of combat and skills that will give them a significant advantage to win. Judoka and Sambo Players also are two other examples where you can find guys that understand this. Other non-grappling based arts....well for newbs...and some non newbs too...they don't get it. They simply do not understand the context and applcation of what they do. Many simply also really do not understand the dynamics of what goes on in a real fight.

Knife and weapons fights..who wins? not necessarily the guy that has the knife, although that is usually a good indicator. It is the guy that can get ahead of the OODA loop process and disrupt and control his opponent.

We simply do not get this concept very well in TMA arts IMO. We always start typically from positions of parity and equal advantage/knowledge of what is going to happen. We don't practice for the "aw crap" factor or how to regain control of the fight. Those are important things that most TMAs stay away from for the sake of prioritizing the learning of good, solid proper technique or structure. Fighting is shunned for the most part with the exception of a small amount of randori which is typically done as a random mess or mele that ends up with two guys struggling out of breath and one guy dominating the other eventually. All this is dismissed as "fighting" or "struggling" and deemed "bad" as it builds "bad habits". A poor excuse if you ask me for dismissing the very thing we should be trying to solve!

So, you can study whatever you study in the dojo for 20 years...but if you don't "get real" with it and explore the nature and problems that are created through randori properly...well you are never really going to learn how to manage a fight. It is a pretty simple understanding if you ask me.

Now, it is okay if this is NOT your goal, as there are lots of other good reasons to explore stuff and learn principles without fighting. Heck some of the best teachers and mentors I have, I don't consider fighters at all, but they are the guys i'd turn to to learn a particular thing I have problems with. So, there is much value beyond fighitng to be had.

However, if it is a priority of your's to learn fighting, well you need to study fighting. Want to defeat a boxer..understand boxing.

As Sun Tzu said. "know your enemy and yourself."

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Old 05-08-2012, 11:52 PM   #50
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,225
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Alas, poor Janet, stuck now on the Left Coast and resigned to a diet of twigs, nuts, and the occasional spotted owl. People probably don't know the difference between sauce and gravy where you are.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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