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Old 07-01-2002, 07:13 PM   #1
Paula Lydon
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Hodge-podge

Anymore, you see Aikidoka practicing grappling, TKD practictioners learning throws,
etc. Village and family arts are avaliable to the mass market and the global community through unlimited communication. Will all the current martial arts morph into one global art by, say, the year 2050 (give or take)? What do you think?

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-01-2002, 09:45 PM   #2
tedehara
 
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Freaky! Hodge-podge Burger

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula Lydon
...Will all the current martial arts morph into one global art by, say, the year 2050 (give or take)? What do you think?
Of course there will always be cross-training by individuals in several martial arts. However there will always be a place for the distinctive traditional art.

Look at it this way. Since the idea of a ground meat patty came from Russia, the concept of a hamburger has become distinctly western. Individuals and corporations have spent billion$ into trying to make the hamburger their own. Do you think this will all end by about 2050? The Whopper, Slider and Big Mac will no longer exist and everyone will end up eating a generic tofu burger with whole grain fillings? I think not.

Too many people and organizations have a reason to keep the status quo. They have both an economic and emotional stake in maintaining their particular martial arts tradition or Brand Name Burger. It appears to me that the traditions of both Mickey D's (McDonald's) and Martial Arts (including Aikido) will be around for a long time.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
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Old 07-01-2002, 10:35 PM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula Lydon Will all the current martial arts morph into one global art by, say, the year 2050 (give or take)? What do you think?
IMHO, no way. There is too much politics and people creating new styles all the time. One global art would mean that our Aikido goal of harmony has been met. You may have a better opinion about human nature than I do.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-02-2002, 01:20 AM   #4
Ben_t_shodan
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Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula Lydon
Anymore, you see Aikidoka practicing grappling, TKD practictioners learning throws,
etc. Will all the current martial arts morph into one global art

I practice Seidokan Aikido. Seidokan means "Ernest, Realistic, and Sincere." I think the "Realistic play a good part in this. My Sensei takes this to heart, we are taught (some get it some don't) that aikido an be done in any situation. Be it from the ground (Almost all fights end up there) or with a chain. Aikido (at least Seidokan Aikido) is a living breathing art. As the world changes…we change. Not only our technique but as Aikidoka our selves.

If you have noticed (or known) many of our applications of etiquette and technique has come from the samara era. Well… we don't practice it like that any more… we evolved.

With Ki,
Ben Doubleday

As time changes our technique will evolve and so will our understanding.
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Old 07-02-2002, 01:53 AM   #5
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben_t_shodan If you have noticed (or known) many of our applications of etiquette and technique has come from the samara era. Well… we don't practice it like that any more… we evolved.
Could you expand on that a little. What etiquette do you no longer perform (I saw lots of hakama on your dojo's photo gallery), a lot of referal to tradition. Same with techniques - what exactly has changed?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:16 AM   #6
Ben_t_shodan
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Re: Re: Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Could you expand on that a little. What etiquette do you no longer perform
Well, With out seeing our techniques done some things will be hard to describe.
Seidokan has smaller technique. We try to do the smallest and most effective movements. For Ikkyo we don't do the big circles any more. Our founder (Roderick Teishi Kobayashi) has found more proficient ways to do the technique.

Some things do stay the same to preserve tradition. Such as hakama. Not much etiquette has stopped, but the reason for doing it has changed. For example, why do we bow? We bow now to show respect (in the dojo). Well that is not exactly why the samara started bowing. In America we shake hands…our right hand to be exact. We do that to show that we don't have a weapon. Well back then with the samara they all had weapons. Why show our hands, they knew the other person had a sword. But instead of hands they bowed their heads to expose their necks. That says " I trust you not to kill me." and how low someone bowed depended on how much trust they had.

Now it is out of respect.

Thank you,

With Ki,
Ben Doubleday

-You are not taught Aikido, Just enlightened to its wisdom.-
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:21 AM   #7
Bronson
 
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Quote:
(I saw lots of hakama on your dojo's photo gallery),
We have a photo gallery?

I wasn't aware that we even had a current website. I know a couple have been done by past students but nothing that is updated anymore.

Bronson

just sitting back and waiting for the slaughter

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:24 AM   #8
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben_t_shodan
Seidokan has smaller technique. We try to do the smallest and most effective movements. For Ikkyo we don't do the big circles any more. Our founder (Roderick Teishi Kobayashi) has found more proficient ways to do the technique.
Went back to the roots - you should look at some of the Yoshinkan/Shodokan stuff. The large circular movements are a latter product.
Quote:
..the reason for doing it has changed. For example, why do we bow? We bow now to show respect (in the dojo). Well that is not exactly why the samara started bowing. ... they bowed their heads to expose their necks. That says " I trust you not to kill me." and how low someone bowed depended on how much trust they had.

Now it is out of respect.
See your point - of course by Ueshiba's time it had already evolved to that.

Wasn't Rob Kobayashi famous for the no touch throws? Are they still practiced?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:29 AM   #9
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bronson
We have a photo gallery?

I wasn't aware that we even had a current website. I know a couple have been done by past students but nothing that is updated anymore.
Hi Bronson;

Isn't the internet great - I went to Ben's profile, cut and pasted his dojo name into google and Bob's your uncle.

Nice design, looks like it isn't quite finished yet.
http://members.tripod.com/~AIM_Seiwa_Dojo/

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:42 AM   #10
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben_t_shodan
Hi Ben,

Interesting thread here. I'll have to point my wife, Emily, this way. She earned shodan in the Seidokan some years back.


Seidokan has smaller technique. We try to do the smallest and most effective movements ... Our founder (Roderick Teishi Kobayashi) has found more proficient ways to do the technique.


I'd echo Peter's comments here. The older stuff was smaller, the more expansive stuff came later, I think.

I've gotten a glimpse at Seidokan waza -- through the filter of our jujutsu, of course -- from Emily. I find the technique interesting, but not particularly different from whatr I've seen in other aikido dojo ranging from Ki Society to Yoshinkan (except for thet 95-degree bit).

... but the reason for doing it has changed. For example, why do we bow? We bow now to show respect (in the dojo). Well that is not exactly why the samara started bowing.

Samurai, Ben. The romanization of the Japanese term for the bureaucratic class descended from the warrior class. And the bow has always been a form of respect, as it remains in modern Japanese culture as wel las in today's budo culture (and the two aren't always the same thing, eh, Peter-san?)

But instead of hands they bowed their heads to expose their necks. That says " I trust you not to kill me." and how low


Not exactly. If you get the chance, take a look at some of the old koryu systems (even some of the gendai budo, really). There's great variety in how bows are performed.

Some systems use very deep, neck-exposing, bows, others will say that displaying the bare neck is insulting. I think your comment is perhaps a bit over-simplified.

In the formal practice of waza or kata in our jujutsu, the bow is brisk, agressive and not even done from seiza, but from a squat ... no neck exposed whatsoever, and definitely not a very trusting posture.

Emily can perhaps contribute more than I, I'll ask her to take a look.

Chuck

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Old 07-02-2002, 02:48 AM   #11
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by LOEP
...as it remains in modern Japanese culture as wel las in today's budo culture (and the two aren't always the same thing, eh, Peter-san?)
True and the source of much confusion on my part.
Quote:
others will say that displaying the bare neck is insulting.
Unless of course you are geisha and then leaving a small patch of unpainted neck is soooooo sexy.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:04 AM   #12
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Isn't the internet great - I went to Ben's profile, cut and pasted his dojo name into google and Bob's your uncle.
Oh wow is that thing still up? I figured it had gone down ages ago. The guy who did that site went off to the Air Force years ago.

Hey guys, Ben's young please be gentle....but not too gentle

Bronson

p.s. Hey Ben, along with all the stuff I sent you privately it's kind of custom to post an introduction and say hi before you start revealing the "secrets" of aikido to these shodokan types (just kidding Peter )

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:13 AM   #13
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Wasn't Rob Kobayashi famous for the no touch throws? Are they still practiced?
Maybe Rob was but I don't know about Rod(erick)

I'd love to able to do that though! I've never been taught or shown anything that has been called that but I've had our normal techniques done to me with such good timing that touch wasn't needed. I've no idea if Kobayashi sensei was famous for it or not. Harnack sensei, any thoughts on this? How 'bout you Emily? I unfortunately was never able to study with Kobayashi sensei as he passed away the year before I started

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:17 AM   #14
Doshu
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I hope not

The martial arts have not really desended into one over the last 1000 years if anything they have diversified. With more and more styles than ever. You only have to look at the post WW2 period to see how many appeared. And I am sure there are a few more that are only passed from father to son and are awaiting there turn on the world stage.

Its great that all martial arts are different,I have a quote from Charles Daniels a Bujinkan Taijutsu practioner which is that "to be a martial artist you must study more than one martial art". However in my mind it is better to be a pureitain to one martial art thus keeping its pureity and not distorting 2 into a mongral martial art.


Cheers

Chris

Master the Divine
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Old 07-02-2002, 04:22 AM   #15
mle
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Lightbulb Re: Re: Hodge-podge

Hi Ben,

Hello to your senseis Mark and Janean.
I was there for her yondan test in Texas.
It was fun to watch.

[quote]Originally posted by Ben_t_shodan
[b]
I practice Seidokan Aikido. Seidokan means "Ernest, Realistic, and Sincere." I think the "Realistic play a good part in this. My Sensei takes this to heart, we are taught (some get it some don't) that aikido an be done in any situation. Be it from the ground (Almost all fights end up there) [/i]

That's a statistic taken from police work and doesn't really apply to interpersonal tactics outside that field besides BJJ or Judo (which is what BJJ came from, and remember that jujutsu is what Judo came from).


or with a chain. Aikido (at least Seidokan Aikido) is a living breathing art. As the world changes…we change. Not only our technique but as Aikidoka our selves.


All arts do. All arts evolve, or they die. It's simply part of existence.
Every art extant today is here because it has evolved.

This is the most common error I have seen in martial arts, the assumption that one's own art is the only one of any worth.
And it's just that, an assumption.

Everybody's got something that floats their boat. Assuming one or the other is superior is at best an error based on lack of information and at worst an indication of insecurity on the part of the assum-er.

Anyway that's my opinion.
Enjoy your training and enjoy other's.

mle

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Old 07-02-2002, 07:04 AM   #16
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Hodge-podge

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula Lydon
Will all the current martial arts morph into one global art by, say, the year 2050 (give or take)? What do you think?
Oh my. I certainly hope not. How boring.

Hell, I've got more than enough on MY plate just figuring out the nuances of what I've allegedly already learned in the system I teach (and have studied for 27 years), much less woryying about some mega-MA that has bits of this and that and the other tossed together like a (probably badly constructed) salad.

And I do dabble in aikido, iaido and jodo as well, so if I get brain-locked from delving into my OWN art, there's some respite in practicing those.

No, I'd not be in favor of a mega-art. There's plenty in the Japanese budo alone to keep me busy for the rest of my natural life, much less haring around other disciplines or mixed-MA.

And besides, I don't WANT the Japanese stuff mixed up with other traditions. Nothing against other flavors, just not my cuppa tea.

Over the years, I've done some Hsing-I/Pa-kua, some escrima, some karate, some Tang Soo Do, etc. All have a distinctive flavor and have something to offer the devotee, but I settled into the groove of the Japanese budo and don't really need to seek what I seek in any other venue.

Chuck

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Old 07-02-2002, 08:12 AM   #17
Bruce Baker
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Transitional Flow

Although I see many of the responders indicating purist motives for their own studies, many of them are training or cross training in other arts than Aikido?

Tongue in cheek?

Well, maybe we have adapted the Marines creedo to Adapt, Change, Overcome as the situation warrants.

Indeed styles do take into their training new and different techniques that are flavored into that style, but within training of each style there must be defense and offense for each counter movement from other styles of martial arts. The grappling will eventually be addressed in Aikido, but in an Aiki manner with its own flavor of technique and defense/offense.

There is an enlightening moment when you see where different movements have been drafted into Aikido from other styles of martial arts, it opens your eyes to the fact that there is a lot more depth to Aikido than some of the simple throws we normally associate with it.

The hodge podge many be a bit short sighted with fifty or even a hundred and fifty years as hand to hand fighting gives way to more advance weaponry or not, we must adapt and change in the context of need.

Some people may have a full plate, but that is because they are already training in multiple disciplines.

Many of us may not change, or want to change because Aikido is rarely explored to its full depth of understanding to its original warrior roots of combat.

Yet, the slow evolvement of change will happen, even if it is generations away beyond our comprehension.

Don't believe that it will depart from the its Japanese context or flavor in its adapatations, that is part of being Aikido.

Will there be other unnamed arts that incorporate many of Aikido's elements into a new art? Probably.

Will it be Aikido? No.

There will always be the distinctive elements of Aikido, its nature of practice is too strongly imbedded in the arena of general practice and noncombative practice.

Hodge podge? Only when others take Aikido and combine it into a transitional flow that takes Aikido into their style.
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