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Old 03-21-2012, 05:35 PM   #1
lars beyer
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Reigi- Correct behaviour

Hi.. This thread is about Reigi- Correct behaviour.

1. What is your idea about correct behaviour in the dojo ?
2. How does it affect training ?
3. How does correct behaviour translate to the world outside of the dojo ?

Please tell me more !

In aiki
Lars

Last edited by lars beyer : 03-21-2012 at 05:37 PM. Reason: ? was missing
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:58 AM   #2
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

How do you undertand "correct" when used with reigi?
Are you aware that there are many, many different forms or ways of formally correct behavior?
Does that make a difference for you?
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:09 AM   #3
philipsmith
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

I agree there are different forms of reigi according to art, class and gender in Japanese society (indeed in all societies)

However they all have a common goal - mutual respect. As long as you have that the external form is unimportant in my view
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:13 AM   #4
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
How do you undertand "correct" when used with reigi?
Are you aware that there are many, many different forms or ways of formally correct behavior?
Does that make a difference for you?
Thanks for asking, even I am not sure I can answer your question fully, but I´ll try.
The outer form varies like you suggest. The meaning of reigi as well. For me correct reigi means that the outer form is accompanied with an inner meaning, that it works on several levels apart from being an empty ritual.
I bow, but I don´t just bow, I bow to (try) to show respect or because I feel gratitude towards my seniors and my sensei or my juniors. I also bow to learn to appreciate bowing, to practise it. For me coming to Japan, bowing was the one most difficult thing to understand, not in terms of actually doing it, but to make it come naturally and integrating it with my behaviour. I felt like an elephant in a glassworks store.
Why do we bow to our training partner ?
As far as I know we do it as a formal appreciation before and after practise.. For instance, if I happen to be a little rough with one of my fellow students, bowing afterwards with sincerity and a short look in the eyes can "reset" our encounter and we can move on with practise without feeling bad about what happened.

In relation to correct reigi outside the dojo, I feel sometimes that an oppertunity is missed because we sort of "leave the ego when we enter the dojo".. And we "put it on again" when we leave.. just like the shoes standing in a row outside the dojo. This was the sort of thing I was thinking when I
started this thread.
I´m not jumping to conclusions, I´m asking questions and to your question whether it matters to me that there are many different ways to perform correct reigi, I would say yes it matters to me in the sence that I am willing to see what other people have to offer- that´s one of the resons why I read this forum and why I ask questions.

Cheers
Lars
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:30 AM   #5
SeiserL
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

IMHO, treating each other with respect, compassion, and humility always seems to be the "correct" thing to do.

Now, how that is expressed may be different according to the turf/dojo. Check with the locals.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:47 AM   #6
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, treating each other with respect, compassion, and humility ...
Hhmm, is reigi only about the relationsship to someone else?
Doesn't it also affect oneself?
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:51 AM   #7
lbb
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Dave Lowry wrote a number of essays on the subject of reigi -- you can find one here. It addresses the subject of bowing, specifically, but also talks briefly about the history of the Ogasawara ryu, which gives some historical context on the relationship between etiquette and the martial arts.

I like Lowry's essays, although a scholar might quibble that by reading them, I'm taking a "lite" approach to these subjects. He seems to have done his own research, though, and I find his writing to be engaging and thoughtful. Perhaps most importantly, he's very good at placing his subjects within their context, giving them due respect without the unfortunate tendency to idolatrous over-veneration of classical Japanese window-dressing that we sometimes find in martial arts.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:18 AM   #8
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Dave Lowry wrote a number of essays on the subject of reigi -- you can find one here. It addresses the subject of bowing, specifically, but also talks briefly about the history of the Ogasawara ryu, which gives some historical context on the relationship between etiquette and the martial arts.

I like Lowry's essays, although a scholar might quibble that by reading them, I'm taking a "lite" approach to these subjects. He seems to have done his own research, though, and I find his writing to be engaging and thoughtful. Perhaps most importantly, he's very good at placing his subjects within their context, giving them due respect without the unfortunate tendency to idolatrous over-veneration of classical Japanese window-dressing that we sometimes find in martial arts.
Thanks, interresting reading !
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:19 PM   #9
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

A Thought on Reigi Saho by Mitsunari Kanai sensei:

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?p=555

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:37 PM   #10
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
A Thought on Reigi Saho by Mitsunari Kanai sensei:

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?p=555
Thanks for posting this link
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:19 AM   #11
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
A Thought on Reigi Saho by Mitsunari Kanai sensei:

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?p=555
Hi Szczepan,

Interresting reading, it made sence to me and helped putting light on some of the various connections between various topics I have been thinking about.
Great

Regards
Lars
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:18 AM   #12
phitruong
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

don't treat people as things

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:04 AM   #13
JJF
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't treat people as things
What said that?

(sorry... friday humor.. I agree very much but couldn't resist the opportunity to make a bad joke.. )

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:41 AM   #14
kewms
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

In our modern, inclusive world, it's not surprising that we would say that the attitude of respect and humility matter more than the outward form.

But in a martial context, the outward form matters a lot, too. Putting your hands too close to your sword (or your gun, on the American frontier) at the wrong time could get you killed. Many of the details of sword-handling etiquette are ways to reassure everyone involved that you're not about to slice them up. Awareness of those details (or their absence) is how you decide if the stranger at your door is as harmless as he claims, or a potential assassin.

Awareness and attention to detail are just as important today. People who see reigi as only about attitude are, I think, missing an opportunity to cultivate more tangible martial skills.

Katherine
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:21 PM   #15
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Szczepan,

Interresting reading, it made sence to me and helped putting light on some of the various connections between various topics I have been thinking about.
Great

Regards
Lars
Hi Lars,
I'm glad you like it. Kanai sensei teaching is for me very important inspiration, and I believe he can be also for aikidoka from other styles. He followed similar path to Nishio sensei and Chiba sensei in his development.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:43 PM   #16
sakumeikan
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi.. This thread is about Reigi- Correct behaviour.

1. What is your idea about correct behaviour in the dojo ?
2. How does it affect training ?
3. How does correct behaviour translate to the world outside of the dojo ?

Please tell me more !

In aiki
Lars
Dear Lars,
Outside the dojo? I see very little to commend Aikido in this area in relation to correct behaviour.What I would term Big Aikido. There can be a vast difference between what is preached in the dojo and what is practiced out side.I am not convinced that Aikido can change anybodys original character entirely.You are who you are .You may change [not always for the better] slightly .A leopard rarely changes its spots.
Power corrupts /absolute power corrupts absolutely. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:07 PM   #17
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Lars,
I'm glad you like it. Kanai sensei teaching is for me very important inspiration, and I believe he can be also for aikidoka from other styles. He followed similar path to Nishio sensei and Chiba sensei in his development.
Thanks again, who is Chiba sensei ?

Best
Lars
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:22 PM   #18
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Thanks again, who is Chiba sensei ?

Best
Lars
http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?cat=15

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:34 PM   #19
Rob Watson
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Thanks again, who is Chiba sensei ?

Best
Lars
My head just imploded ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #20
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
My head just imploded ...
I´m sorry.. if you continue reading my threads that might become a habit of yours..

Last edited by lars beyer : 03-23-2012 at 03:49 PM. Reason: to add a few more words
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:44 AM   #21
Walter Martindale
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Reigi is good manners. Politeness.
The usual practice is to use "Japanese politeness" which is different in details from "Western politeness", but it's still good manners.
For example - and this isn't dojo - it's rude in Japan to stick your chopsticks in a bowl of food when you're not using them - To Japanese it signifies death, somehow resembling a pot full of bones or something, but to westerners it means nothing. Kinda like being careful when to say "shi" versus "yon" when saying "four" - again, because "shi" sounds a bit like death or dead... (we say Yondan, not Shidan, for example)

Cheers,
W
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:58 AM   #22
Chris Li
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

http://www.missmanners.com/

In my experience - non-Japanese tend to be a lot more fanatic about it then most of what I encountered in Japan at Japanese dojo. Kind of like Alec Guiness in A Majority of One.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-25-2012, 08:31 AM   #23
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Goo ni itte wa, goo ni shitagae...follow the rules of the village you are in.....trouble is you don't always know what rules a village has when you enter.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:54 AM   #24
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

..Louis... I think this is a beginning of a beautifull friendship..!
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:26 AM   #25
lars beyer
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Re: Reigi- Correct behaviour

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
..Louis... I think this is a beginning of a beautifull friendship..!
(psst.. "Casablance", last line by Bogart)
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