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Old 03-15-2012, 02:58 PM   #26
Howard Popkin
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
What! you meant we have to go Oregon or Netherland to get the stuffs? sheesh! i have problem getting out of the state. you guys are taking the IHTBF too far. oh wait! it's legal in the Netherland, right?
Phi, you kill me

Howard Popkin
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:48 PM   #27
Allen Beebe
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Eek! Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Phi, you kill me
Oh no! Phi killed Howie!

No, Phi, you do not have to come to Oregon or the Netherlands to "get the stuffs!" In fact I highly doubt that anyone I know in Oregon or the Netherlands would be so bold as to claim to have "the stuffs." What we do "have" is Shirata sensei's method for developing "the stuffs" and relating it to the other "stuffs" in Aikido.

I highly doubt that killing anyone, even the likes of Howie, is legal in the Netherlands! Although I'm pretty certain that torture must be legal because the Dutch haven't hesitated to continuously torture me with their delicious cheeses, refreshing beer, beautiful riparian scenery, prolific art, gorgeous women and their silly sense of humor for over a decade now! (Some unfortunates miss out on all of that by just hanging out in the red light district or coffee bars. )

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:56 PM   #28
Allen Beebe
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

BTW, can we make, "Phi killed Howie!" t-shirts? I see a future in this!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:57 PM   #29
woudew
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
BTW, can we make, "Phi killed Howie!" t-shirts? I see a future in this!
Can i pre-order a patch please?
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:23 PM   #30
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
(Some unfortunates miss out on all of that by just hanging out in the red light district or coffee bars. )
I think you mean coffee shops.
Coffee bars are establishments where you can actually get a cup of coffee .
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:28 PM   #31
Allen Beebe
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Walter Oude Wesselink wrote: View Post
Can i pre-order a patch please?
No PATCHES!! Patches are the scourge of the martial arts! Did Iizasa Ienao, Ittosai Kagehisa, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, or Musashi Miyamoto wear a patches?!?! NO! NO THEY DID NOT!

But, if they probably DID wear shitagi. And what is shitagi if not an undershirt? And what is a t-shirt if not a undershirt? So wearing a t-shirt IS highly cool!

Now, it could be argued that they also probably wore fundoshi. And those that would make such an argument would probably also assert that fundoshi are nothing more than underpants. And they might think it "cool" to wear underpants in public as depicted in some of the more bawdy ukiyoe. In fact I've heard it rumored that some present day martial artists actually train in and compete in their underpants . . . ew! I'd sooner compete in a gi covered with PATCHES . . . and we all know how tasteless that would be.

So . . . patches NO, t-shirts YES. Fundoshi . . . well, let's just say, "context is everything."

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:31 PM   #32
Allen Beebe
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I think you mean coffee shops.
Coffee bars are establishments where you can actually get a cup of coffee .
You see? I just can't keep up with the Dutch sense of humor . . . I mean laws. So which one of those two can one legally smoke at now . . . I mean smoke tobacco?

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:45 PM   #33
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Quote:
Luke Hobbs wrote: View Post
Ah yeah I meant ligament sorry
Ah, so, ligaments connect bones together. Learning how to arrange ones bones to bear the bulk of the load while using muscle to 'simply' maintain such a posture is a first step - kindergarten really. Based on what meager bits I've managed to figure out there is way more to it (IT) that that. Managing loads in awkward positions (bones not 'properly' lined up) is still quite possible but not with just bones/ligaments and muscles to maintain that posture (think the jo trick for example).

Transitioning from working with simple linear forces/loads through the body (step one) to using a spiraling action requires more 'stuff'. The language kind of fails/misleads here and my current level of understanding on this spiraling business has not been 'vetted' by someone more experienced so I may be out in left field - sure am able to deliver/manage much higher loads than when using linear methods. Also, awkward postures with no real bone alignments can bear loads instead of just collapsing as before. Seems like real progress but it sure is easy to fool ones self in these endeavors.

Gotta say that the use of the psoas major (connects the legs to the lower back and 'bypasses' the hips) and lat. dorsi (connects the hip ridge and lower spine to the arms bypassing the shoulder) muscles are pretty important. Good tonus is important.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:57 PM   #34
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
No PATCHES!! Patches are the scourge of the martial arts! Did Iizasa Ienao, Ittosai Kagehisa, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, or Musashi Miyamoto wear a patches?!?! NO! NO THEY DID NOT!
Dang, I thought mon were patches ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:03 PM   #35
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
You see? I just can't keep up with the Dutch sense of humor . . . I mean laws. So which one of those two can one legally smoke at now . . . I mean smoke tobacco?
Smoking tobacco is illegal in coffee bars as well as in coffee shops. Smoking cannabis is allowed in coffee shops as long as you don't mix in tobacco. However, the Dutch Food and Drugs Administration are not authorized to check joints for the presence of tobacco.
Yep, Dutch law is as weird as that.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 03-15-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:17 PM   #36
Allen Beebe
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Dang, I thought mon were patches ...
Preposterous!

Read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_(emblem))

You will find no mention of patches!

(If you don't read it on the inter web must be true.)

A "patch" is something I find whilst house training my dog!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:20 PM   #37
Allen Beebe
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Smoking tobacco is illegal in coffee bars as well as in coffee shops. Smoking cannabis is allowed in coffee shops as long as you don't mix in tobacco. However, the Dutch Food and Drugs Administration are not authorized to check joints for the presence of tobacco.
Yep, Dutch law is as weird as that.
See?????

I tell no lies!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:27 PM   #38
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

So to bring this back on topic . . . if one were to stay in the Netherlands, and if one weren't a smoker of any variety, and if one didn't drink coffee either, or find one's self diverted by a "window display," one might find themselves standing outside waiting for one's friend who does smoke or "what not" and one might then use their time productively by practicing . . .

Zhangzhuang

and one might actually not look all that strange provided one were standing outside the proper establishment . . .

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:34 PM   #39
Garth
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Patches ,Patches.?!? We don't need no stinkin patches"

I can't believe I came up with that one first. or did I ? I didn't read all the way back

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:29 PM   #40
Garth
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Okay I know that was bad but I didn't mean to kill the thread

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:53 PM   #41
BEleanor
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Yes. It takes a lot of self control and concentration. It hurts, actually! It seems to be making a big difference for me after just a couple of months of regular practice. I haven't been doing much aikido during that time (recent knee surgery) but the little I have done seems to indicate a lot of potential benefits from standing practice. For one thing, my posture and awareness of alignment are better. Also I am learning to redefine "relaxed". That said, I can barely get through 20 minutes yet.

B
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:57 PM   #42
Janet Rosen
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
No PATCHES!! Patches are the scourge of the martial arts! Did Iizasa Ienao, Ittosai Kagehisa, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, or Musashi Miyamoto wear a patches?!?! NO! NO THEY DID NOT!
PATCHES?
We don't have to show you no stinkin' patches.

Dang, Gregory beat me to it. But I got the quote right :-)

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 03-15-2012 at 08:59 PM. Reason: darn Gregory!

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:26 AM   #43
Garth
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Staying off topic of course Janet,
I think both lines were in there, yours finishing mine

On a serious note, are we talking sitting meditation here versus visualization and moving meditation(aikido, sword practice)?
Because the subject of how much of each should be done time wise has come up in my dojo.
The ratio given was double the sitting meditation to actual practice.
And shouldn' t a certain vocabulary of techniques or movement be "internalized" as second nature before trying to meditate for "no mind"
Just throwing that out there
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:45 AM   #44
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
As for posting descriptions, illustrations, or video here (or pretty much anywhere), I think it would be pretty well pointless, a disservice really. Think of the topic of this thread . . . the description standing, the illustration standing, the video showing someone . . . standing. I know it is disappointing but, direct instruction, from someone who understands, can do, and can teach (and is willing to provide repeated correction) is truly essential. Just take my example for instance. I was just got out my dusty box of video tapes of Shirata sensei last night and we were watching them. Sensei was highly unusual for his time in that he was gentle, patient, potent and would demonstrate, break down, explain, repeat, even provide handouts of lists of related techniques, etc. He was truly one of a kind, and I was a devoted student who would video, annotate,and train 7 days a week . . . and I still missed some of the most important things that sensei taught EXPLICITLY. You don't know what you don't know.

If any of you find yourself in Oregon please give me a holler!

All the best,
Allen
Allen, Thanks for the reply.

I was mostly interested in the similarities in outward form to Tomiki's tandokudosa and the other handful of styles that have similar solo exercises. It was more of an academic curiosity than anything instruction related. Thanks again.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:47 AM   #45
Allen Beebe
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

With regards to my post, and I think many Zhangzhuang practishioners, this is a "third element."

First of all, all meditation practices are not the same. Many individuals assume that they are. Also, in my experience most individuals that express their opinion about meditation do not have a broad basis or significant depth to their perspective. That said, we have mind/bodies, that which develops the mind/body can be beneficial. However, depending on one's goals, some practices are more productive than others and when the goal is narrowed, some practices can be seen as counterproductive or neutral.

The idea of Aikido as "moving meditation" is more "idea" than actual practice in most cases in my experience.

In both cases, neither necessarily lead, and there is little evidence to show a significant link to, the kind of "weird" power appied in the internal arts including Aikido, that put them on the map in the first place.

The standing and locomotion (I like that word as opposed to "moving," because the use of "moving" in juxtaposition to sitting or standing impies a stasus that is not real.). Practice that achieves the "weird" power exibited martially by the internal martial arts practitioners that put their martial arts "on the map" by being significantly different than the norm is (duh ) significantly different than the norm!

So I would suggest that there is practice different from normal sitting and normal Aikidi/Sword, that produces unique results. The confusing factor is that it can LOOK LIKE practice one already has done experienced, BUT can be differentiated by the results demonstrated. For example two people may bake the same pie using the same ingridents and even the same recipe. If the results come out significantly different, someone is DOING something significantly different, even if it isn't visible. I want to learn from the better pie maker such that I can make a better pie.

(Pi is different than Phi BTW, which is different than the Howie killer!)

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:53 AM   #46
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Allen, Thanks for the reply.

I was mostly interested in the similarities in outward form to Tomiki's tandokudosa and the other handful of styles that have similar solo exercises. It was more of an academic curiosity than anything instruction related. Thanks again.
Perhaps closer to Shioda's look than to Tomiki (although they are all in the ball park) and not too similar to Tohei, IMHO, FWIW.


~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:57 AM   #47
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Perhaps closer to Shioda's look than to Tomiki (although they are all in the ball park) and not too similar to Tohei, IMHO, FWIW.

Interesting, thanks!
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:16 PM   #48
phitruong
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post

(Pi is different than Phi BTW, which is different than the Howie killer!)
i was standing around and minding my own business, then whammo... turned into Howie Killer. i heard the tuna whispering to each others, "he took out howie the aiki fish killer without doing anything! this guy is bad! real bad! we should send him caviar as tribute!"

went to a seminar with Wang Hai Jun (WHJ), and before we did Silk Reeling, he would make us do the standing thingy. he would walk around and poke at you and telling you that you need peng here and peng there. first i thought that i didn't have enough punkness. i was going punk his rear-end, but one look at his huge legs, i was thinking that he could punt me to the moon. it was good for him that i didn't try to punk him so he didn't wasted a good punt.

for a while i was a bit puzzled over WHJ teaching approach on standing before silk reeling. lately i started to see the wisdom of that approach. i started to feel the same sort of silk reeling winding/unwinding inside my body while doing the standing thing. i would breakout into sweat in no time at all, then my wife told me "hey, why are you stand so close to the fireplace and your ass is smoking!" arrgggh!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:28 PM   #49
phitruong
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
No PATCHES!! Patches are the scourge of the martial arts! Did Iizasa Ienao, Ittosai Kagehisa, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, or Musashi Miyamoto wear a patches?!?! NO! NO THEY DID NOT!
"
i thought Musashi had a patch that said "if you can read this patch, you are dead!"

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:52 PM   #50
dave9nine
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Re: Zhangzhuang could help Aikido practise

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not in any manner that has ever been shown, trained, discussed or written.
The founder embraced these training models and would probably either be hosting internal training to fix aikido or out doing it himself.
I am positive that once he looked around...one way or another he would be involved in this new movement.
Dan
To add to this discussion (and others like it), i wanted to share this video i came across recently and, now, in light of the experienced voices in here promoting the internal aspects, cant stop thinking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC6DC8X5wA&sns=fb

the most intriguing part of it is where the man discusses the meditation practice he uses, and the importance of ying-yang, which he calls in-yo (sp?)

it seems very plausible that o-sensei had the ability that this man has (had?) and applied it to budo, in which case, it seems to me anyway, that all aikidoka should be trying to figure out how to access and develop it...

-dave
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