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Old 03-20-2012, 09:01 AM   #51
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Phi
I disagree. A good teacher can give you exactly what you need to move on. Thats the whole point of a teacher student relationship.

Peace
Lars
Hi everyone,
sorry couldn't resist a post here.

The teacher can only point and give advice and show you. The student must must must absolutely must, find out for him or self what it means.
A good teacher imparts the art, in such a way that self discovery is guided too, and not something that is told to you. if it is told to you then you don't "know", it is second hand knowledge, and is not truly known in your heart. FWIW

In Budo,

Andy B
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:42 PM   #52
Benjamin Green
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
in my experience All of our Aikido Practice is "weapons" practice. It does not matter if you have a weapon or not. Your Bokken, Jo, or Katana is just an extension of your arm... They are not separate... They are completely integrated into every Aikido Technique. What I can also say based on my experience is that you can tell right away who practices this way and who does not and those who do... usually have a better understanding of "how" Aikido works.

William Hazen
In my experience, such dichotomies may be a little misleading.

Aikido seems to incorporate some transferable skills with respect to weapon use. However, a weapon seems to be more than just an extension of your arm. The distancing, timing, relative angles the practitioners are likely to achieve, requisite body mechanics and the overall - for lack of a better word -- tempo of the encounter are very different depending on what weapons and defences you're both using.

I fear, if you try to wield a Jo like a Katana, you're just going to get hurt - just as you'd get hurt if you tried to use a Katana without, among other things, understanding that a lighter more mobile footwork was called for than when trying to wield a fist or to throw someone. Different weights, different penetration characteristics, different lever points, (the ability to rapidly alter your lever points in the case of a Jo,) different speeds at which you can change angles; at least in my experience, they all tend to dictate different, partially overlapping, sets of skills to make best use of the things.

Ben
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:02 AM   #53
Aikibu
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
In my experience, such dichotomies may be a little misleading.

Aikido seems to incorporate some transferable skills with respect to weapon use. However, a weapon seems to be more than just an extension of your arm. The distancing, timing, relative angles the practitioners are likely to achieve, requisite body mechanics and the overall - for lack of a better word -- tempo of the encounter are very different depending on what weapons and defences you're both using.

I fear, if you try to wield a Jo like a Katana, you're just going to get hurt - just as you'd get hurt if you tried to use a Katana without, among other things, understanding that a lighter more mobile footwork was called for than when trying to wield a fist or to throw someone. Different weights, different penetration characteristics, different lever points, (the ability to rapidly alter your lever points in the case of a Jo,) different speeds at which you can change angles; at least in my experience, they all tend to dictate different, partially overlapping, sets of skills to make best use of the things.

Ben
I guess I should have mentioned I am a long time student of the late Shoji Nishio Shihan and our Aikido does not seem to have some "transferable weapons skills"... its all "weapons skills" and just the way it works... Every Technique is integrated so that it can be expressed with all of the weapons I've mentioned. Our Maai, Hanmi, Atemi,and Irimi are different and reflect the use of these weapons. So when you execute Tai-jutsu you always cut, extend and thrust..."Aikido is the Sword" and Shoji Nishio spent his lifetime expressing this philosophy. he even developed his own form of Iaido which is also fully integrated with his Aikido.

I have been to more than my share of seminars over the last 20+ years and can see the difference in our approach to practice compared to others. I hope it does not sound like I am knocking them. How one decides to practice Aikido is totally cool with me.

So instead of saying "Weapons in Aikido" I would say "Weapons are Aikido"

William Hazen
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:21 AM   #54
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I guess I should have mentioned I am a long time student of the late Shoji Nishio Shihan and our Aikido does not seem to have some "transferable weapons skills"... its all "weapons skills" and just the way it works... Every Technique is integrated so that it can be expressed with all of the weapons I've mentioned. Our Maai, Hanmi, Atemi,and Irimi are different and reflect the use of these weapons. So when you execute Tai-jutsu you always cut, extend and thrust..."Aikido is the Sword" and Shoji Nishio spent his lifetime expressing this philosophy. he even developed his own form of Iaido which is also fully integrated with his Aikido.

I have been to more than my share of seminars over the last 20+ years and can see the difference in our approach to practice compared to others. I hope it does not sound like I am knocking them. How one decides to practice Aikido is totally cool with me.

So instead of saying "Weapons in Aikido" I would say "Weapons are Aikido"

William Hazen
Hi William,
I donīt think youre knocking others by explaining your style.I think itīs all about how you present yourself and respect others ideas and beliefs
I guess the reason I say "weapons in aikido" in the title of this thread is because some people put less or no emphasis on weapons and I donīt want to start a discussion with a conclusion.. Itīs up to people to decide what they think and what they like and shouldnīt be forced I feel. Othervise there would be no reason to discuss I feel.
Sometimes we get too attached to our own ideas I believe.

Lars
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:52 AM   #55
Aikibu
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi William,
I donīt think youre knocking others by explaining your style.I think itīs all about how you present yourself and respect others ideas and beliefs
I guess the reason I say "weapons in aikido" in the title of this thread is because some people put less or no emphasis on weapons and I donīt want to start a discussion with a conclusion.. Itīs up to people to decide what they think and what they like and shouldnīt be forced I feel. Othervise there would be no reason to discuss I feel.
Sometimes we get too attached to our own ideas I believe.

Lars
Very True Lars...and I agree.

William Hazen
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:02 PM   #56
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.

Since it seems to match aikido movement of ___________________flavor of any group, there's really nothing to discuss ...its just a bunch of people having fun....until the mid dan and kyu ranked people start to once again " imagine" they're doing real weapons, or that what they're doing is aiki.
Dan
First time I saw Aiki was in a game my father showed me. Then I saw it in handball and in football. I found it in nature. And in working with animals. I found it in western boxing, fencing and in kempo. I saw it in Aiki weapons. But it took a long time before I saw anyone do Aiki in Aikido !

All the best!

Tom
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:20 AM   #57
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I guess I should have mentioned I am a long time student of the late Shoji Nishio Shihan and our Aikido does not seem to have some "transferable weapons skills"... its all "weapons skills" and just the way it works... Every Technique is integrated so that it can be expressed with all of the weapons I've mentioned. Our Maai, Hanmi, Atemi,and Irimi are different and reflect the use of these weapons. So when you execute Tai-jutsu you always cut, extend and thrust..."Aikido is the Sword" and Shoji Nishio spent his lifetime expressing this philosophy. he even developed his own form of Iaido which is also fully integrated with his Aikido.

I have been to more than my share of seminars over the last 20+ years and can see the difference in our approach to practice compared to others. I hope it does not sound like I am knocking them. How one decides to practice Aikido is totally cool with me.

So instead of saying "Weapons in Aikido" I would say "Weapons are Aikido"

William Hazen
Hi William. I think we spend a few hours on the mat together in Denmark some years back during easter camp. It was one of the last - if not THE last - visit by Nishio sensei there. I'm was a student of Leo sensei back then.. used to have a pony tail and really ugly glasses

It's obvious that you and I share the same background and have inherited similar views on how to incorporate weapons work in our aikido.

I will even go so far as to say that the sword and the jo are great teachers of Aikido. If I manage to learn how to cut with the japanese sword and how to move the jo - then it will change my way of moving when doing tachi-waza. At least when you practice aikido the way Nishio sensei taught it.

I have seen my fair share of people trying to move or twist uke with power instead of releasing the power of the cutting sensation that you can only fully understand by practicing with a sword. Not to say that you can ONLY learn Aikido from working with weapons - but it sure does help in my point of view... AND let's not forget... it looks really cool

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:49 AM   #58
Aikibu
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Thanks JJ and I agree. You may be confusing me with the other William Hazen though. LOL...I know it's weird to think there are two William Hazen's who practice Shoji Nishio Ryu but God has a funny sense of humor. He lives on the East Coast of the US and I live on the West Coast. We "bumped into each other" once when Nishio Shihan held a seminar in Santa Cruz California...A friend of mine saw me and called my name from across the mat...We were both standing next to each other and up until that moment we had no idea we shared the same name...Nishio Shihan sure got a kick out of it! The East Coast William Hazen spends allot of time in Northern Europe.

William West Coast Hazen
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:57 AM   #59
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks JJ and I agree. You may be confusing me with the other William Hazen though. LOL...I know it's weird to think there are two William Hazen's who practice Shoji Nishio Ryu but God has a funny sense of humor. He lives on the East Coast of the US and I live on the West Coast. We "bumped into each other" once when Nishio Shihan held a seminar in Santa Cruz California...A friend of mine saw me and called my name from across the mat...We were both standing next to each other and up until that moment we had no idea we shared the same name...Nishio Shihan sure got a kick out of it! The East Coast William Hazen spends allot of time in Northern Europe.

William West Coast Hazen
WWCH:

That's amazing. What a coincidence. Anyway,,, should you happen to plan to go to Scandinavia at some time consider going to our annual Easter seminar..(http://www.aikikai.dk/?p=421#more-421). Just ask WECH if it's worth the journey

You are always welcome in my dojo as well (www.vestfynaikikai.dk)

Sincerely

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 03-24-2012, 05:17 AM   #60
DH
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
First time I saw Aiki was in a game my father showed me. Then I saw it in handball and in football. I found it in nature. And in working with animals. I found it in western boxing, fencing and in kempo. I saw it in Aiki weapons. But it took a long time before I saw anyone do Aiki in Aikido !

All the best!

Tom
I am happy for you that you think you see aiki everywhere. When and if I ever see "aiki in weapons" in aikido I will be the first to say where and with who. All I ever see is aikido movement with a weapon in their hand.

This isn't play time in the sand box. There is a very real truth here. When it comes to weapons; sword, spear, twin sticks and knives...things get very real and very defined and it is over very quickly.
I continue to take accomplished budoka (some who are weapons experts) apart...with aiki. So far as I have seen and felt; expert level teachers have never truly felt aiki in a weapon and really do not know what the hell they are talking about in using the term, student level budoka are only demonstrating incredible ignorance in entering into a conversation about it and only embarrass themselves in person.
As one of your Shihan said to a couple of us in an open room
"I don't get it.
If I cut first...I'm dead.
If you cut first...I'm dead
If we meet...I'm dead.
What do I do?"
My buddy said
"Die well."
I don't have much patience for B.S., hand holding of sensitive feelings, and sugar coating very real and repeatable results. The truth continues to stare your teachers in the face as they stand all but defenseless and get cut down.
The only thing left for Aikido teachers to do is to actually learn power and aiki so that you do know what you're talking about. That's it and that's all.

Keep in mind a closed meeting of Shihan that took place in Japan with Doshu. A shihan stood up and said "We have to stop demonstrating weapons in public in Japan. There are educated budoka watching and they are laughing at us."
Another shihan privately thanked him for having the courage to finally say it.
And nothing changed. And consider what he said ...as I repeat that nothing has changed.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-24-2012 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 03-24-2012, 06:59 AM   #61
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

I want to add for those who will no doubt be offended:
At least realize that those of us who continue to take both you and your theories apart -are also standing there with you after....sweating it out with you, and taking the time, to teach and help. That...is caring and offering a hand.
Dan
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:49 AM   #62
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I am happy for you that you think you see aiki everywhere. When and if I ever see "aiki in weapons" in aikido I will be the first to say where and with who. All I ever see is aikido movement with a weapon in their hand.

This isn't play time in the sand box. There is a very real truth here. When it comes to weapons; sword, spear, twin sticks and knives...things get very real and very defined and it is over very quickly.
I continue to take accomplished budoka (some who are weapons experts) apart...with aiki. So far as I have seen and felt; expert level teachers have never truly felt aiki in a weapon and really do not know what the hell they are talking about in using the term, student level budoka are only demonstrating incredible ignorance in entering into a conversation about it and only embarrass themselves in person.
As one of your Shihan said to a couple of us in an open room
"I don't get it.
If I cut first...I'm dead.
If you cut first...I'm dead
If we meet...I'm dead.
What do I do?"
My buddy said
"Die well."
I don't have much patience for B.S., hand holding of sensitive feelings, and sugar coating very real and repeatable results. The truth continues to stare your teachers in the face as they stand all but defenseless and get cut down.
The only thing left for Aikido teachers to do is to actually learn power and aiki so that you do know what you're talking about. That's it and that's all.

Keep in mind a closed meeting of Shihan that took place in Japan with Doshu. A shihan stood up and said "We have to stop demonstrating weapons in public in Japan. There are educated budoka watching and they are laughing at us."
Another shihan privately thanked him for having the courage to finally say it.
And nothing changed. And consider what he said ...as I repeat that nothing has changed.

Dan
No worries Dan. We always allow you to cut first... it's a better way to die. Good Post.

William Hazen
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Old 03-24-2012, 05:24 PM   #63
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

(Pssssst..Apart from death I have better ways to waste my life.. eating, drinking, dancing, practicing aikido, books, movies, work nīstuff..)
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Old 03-24-2012, 06:24 PM   #64
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:


Keep in mind a closed meeting of Shihan that took place in Japan with Doshu. A shihan stood up and said [I
wrote:
"We have to stop demonstrating weapons in public in Japan. There are educated budoka watching and they are laughing at us."[/i]
Another shihan privately thanked him for having the courage to finally say it.
And nothing changed. And consider what he said ...as I repeat that nothing has changed.

Dan
Dear Dan
I am sure I am not the only person on this forum who would like to know what Shihan said the above to Doshu and when this Shihan said it.I would have thought a statement by any Shihan to Doshu of this nature would have spread like wildfire through the aikido fraternity.I look forward to your reply.i hope as ever you are well.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-24-2012, 06:28 PM   #65
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Dan
I am sure I am not the only person on this forum who would like to know what Shihan said the above to Doshu and when this Shihan said it.I would have thought a statement by any Shihan to Doshu of this nature would have spread like wildfire through the aikido fraternity.I look forward to your reply.i hope as ever you are well.Cheers, Joe.
Yoshio Kuroiwa - check out Interlude Three.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-24-2012, 09:01 PM   #66
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.

~Voltaire

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:36 PM   #67
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.
Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:08 PM   #68
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Always keep a litterbag in your car. It doesn't take up much room, and if it gets full, you can just toss it out the window.

- Steve Martin
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:26 PM   #69
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Always keep a litterbag in your car. It doesn't take up much room, and if it gets full, you can just toss it out the window.

- Steve Martin
Well excuuuuuuuse me!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:48 PM   #70
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.
Morihei Ueshiba
I was not merely considering my own efforts, but there you have it, smack right in your face.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:02 PM   #71
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Having practiced akikjo, aikiken, the traditional sword (Shinkage-ryu) and the traditional jo (Muso Ryu) for over 20 years, I'd offer these two layers of the weapons training onion ...

1.) Excellent practice in 'structural' aikido ... balance, footwork, and timing, Can you demonstrate how to move, where to move, when when to move?

2.) When taught well, an opportunity to truly investigate the fundamental principles of yang-yin-zero (expanding, contracting, and yang-yin disappearing). Can you demonstrate firmness, softness and nothingness?

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Old 04-05-2012, 04:43 AM   #72
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Having practiced akikjo, aikiken, the traditional sword (Shinkage-ryu) and the traditional jo (Muso Ryu) for over 20 years, I'd offer these two layers of the weapons training onion ...

1.) Excellent practice in 'structural' aikido ... balance, footwork, and timing, Can you demonstrate how to move, where to move, when when to move?

2.) When taught well, an opportunity to truly investigate the fundamental principles of yang-yin-zero (expanding, contracting, and yang-yin disappearing). Can you demonstrate firmness, softness and nothingness?
Dear Jim,
Agree with your views here.Do you know the Varjans, Kristina and Rikko? I also have a friend called John Mullican, maybe you know them?? Cheers, Joe.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:45 AM   #73
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jim,
Agree with your views here.Do you know the Varjans, Kristina and Rikko? I also have a friend called John Mullican, maybe you know them?? Cheers, Joe.
You know, I did meet them once, on a mat in Hawaii, was probably 2003. Haven't run across them since they've moved here. Very nice training. I do not know John.

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:34 PM   #74
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Having practiced akikjo, aikiken, the traditional sword (Shinkage-ryu) and the traditional jo (Muso Ryu) for over 20 years, I'd offer these two layers of the weapons training onion ...

1.) Excellent practice in 'structural' aikido ... balance, footwork, and timing, Can you demonstrate how to move, where to move, when when to move?

2.) When taught well, an opportunity to truly investigate the fundamental principles of yang-yin-zero (expanding, contracting, and yang-yin disappearing). Can you demonstrate firmness, softness and nothingness?
Are these rhetorical questions ?
Cheers
Lars
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:41 PM   #75
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Are these rhetorical questions ?
Cheers
Lars
Not questions, Lars, but more like reminders to myself and our club as to why we practice the aikido weapons. That is, "are we demonstrating proper balance, are we demonstrating proper angles and are we demonstrating proper breathing?"

The second set of questions are the focus of our traditional weapons (Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu) classes. Here, it's all about the teacher-student relationship ... the pressing teacher, never giving the student a chance to relax ... and the yielding student, ever-watchful, always responding to the teacher's attacks ... and then nothingness, the zero state, those times when the teacher and student are one.

If ever I pose a question in a post, it's always to myself.

Cheers,

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