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Old 04-21-2006, 08:09 AM   #1
actoman
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Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

All,

I was training in the dojo the other day and we working on jo-waza.I am currenly Orange Belt level. When I attacked a senior black belt , I grabbed the jo, he attempted to perform a technique, the one that resembles Shihonage.

I didnt work, so I was honest and didnt fall. He tried again, and everything he tried simply was not making me fall. So finally he took me down with an Iriminage.

The next day, I walked into the dojo early and Our head Sensei approached me and told me that 'my control' was not there and that the senior student was upset with me.

I have not approached the student nor tried to explain away what I beleived was simply being a good uke against a non-working technique. I think he'd appreciate my honesty and it would only make him better in the long run.

Thoughts?
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:12 AM   #2
SeiserL
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I would have appreciated you honest response by not taking the fall. My deepest compliments.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:26 AM   #3
Brian Vickery
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Thumbs down Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
All,

I(t) didnt work, so I was honest and didnt fall. He tried again, and everything he tried simply was not making me fall.... Thoughts?
Hi Andy,

Hey, you can't fix something if you don't know it's broken! He should be THANKING you instead of being pissed at you!

Just let it go, his ego will heal without you having to stroke it!

Keep the honesty in your training!

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:30 AM   #4
Qatana
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I have lots of moments like that. I can very easily retain my balance in iriminage and sometimes just walk out of it. If my sempai, who outweighs me by at least 80 pounds can't make me fall, then it is his problem. But it might be a good idea to try to re-create the problem and have your sensei watch.
When this happened with sensei( also a foot taller and 90 pounds heavier) I got to experience yonkyo without warning. That made me fall!

Q
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:36 AM   #5
nathansnow
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

That's how you learn.... MISTAKES!!
If he doesn't know he's making one, he'll never do it right.
Keep doing what your doing!!

Nathan Snow
Michigan
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:52 AM   #6
JMCavazos
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

He shouldn't be mad at you.... He should be mad at himself....
I would not have fallen for a black belt ... maybe a kyu, but not a dan....
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:53 AM   #7
Nick P.
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Agreed with all the above. But....

How much would you learn if all your partners ever did was foil your attempt at completing a technique? Think you would ever get it "right"? I don't think I would.

Granted there is a difference between not being able to complete a techniqe and crying to my Sensei that so-and-so wouldn't play nice. As to what you should do next, just ingore the incident and train.

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:08 AM   #8
Amelia Smith
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

On other threads, people have discussed the fact that if you know what technique is coming, it's pretty easy to resist. So, as uke, you need to keep an open mind, and not clamp down against that particular technique. I personally find it helpful to do the first few repetitions of the technique fairly lightly, to learn or refamiliarize myself (and whoever I'm working with) with the general outline of the technique.

If your partner is having difficulty with a technique when you resist, they have a couple of options. One is to ask you to lighten up for a bit as they learn this technique. The other, probably more appropriate for a senior dan rank (although it depends on the school, I guess) is to slow down and figure out how to make it work. Even senior dan rank people occasionally come across an unfamiliar technique, or have an "off" day.

Restist, ok, but also communicate!
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:26 AM   #9
Dennis Good
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Unfortunately I don't know the full details of the situation. Just because someone has a dan rank does not mean they are not learning something new themselves or taking your experience into account. If the tempo of the technique was slow while he was trying to learn the movement or even to work on the fine points of his technique, or to protect his Uke from a possibly nasty fall it is very easy to resist. a technique to the point of complete failure and that could be considered rude, even if it is not intended that way. However if you were working at a more vigorous pace and both people are competent at the technique in question and he is simply complaining because he sucks, he should grow up and learn from the experience. That is the sort of thing that needs to be communicated between partners ahead of time. That way both people have the same expectations.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:15 AM   #10
happysod
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

If possible, find another dojo (or learn the compliant splatt quickly, sound effects optional) - if you have dan grades who are unable to either
a) accept they need to work on their technique or
b) don't take the time to explain why the attack you were using was inappropriate for the practice then
c) (the big one for me) compound that by getting the head instructor to "have a quiet word" you have a potentially interesting yet probably pathetic time ahead of you.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:31 AM   #11
Eric Webber
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Do you consider this situation a problem for you? - do something to rectify it.

Is the problem someone else's? - let them work it out, or help them work it out, but don't carry the burden for them, it's not healthy for either of you.

In either case, learn what you can from it and grow. Hopefully they will, too.

Train honestly.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:40 AM   #12
wmreed
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

The majority of the posts in this thread comment on how the senior student should have behaved, but I'm curious about something that I didn't notice anyone else asking: What was your _sensei's_ take on the matter? Did he reprimand you? Question you about the incident? Encourage you to discuss things with the senior student? Offer guidance on what he expects from you in the future?

More than the senior student's behavior, which I have seen from students and senseis all over, I wonder about how the head of the dojo views the situation.

I am also curious as to your attitude while the senior was trying to make the throw work. Was your choice of reaction one which came across as competitive? As curious? As confused? As helpful? If you were conscious that the senior student was becoming frustrated, did you change how you were reacting?

In my observations, the _way_ in which uke resists makes a big difference to nage's ability to use the resistance as helpful feedback.

It is my personal view (and I KNOW they'll be many that disagree with me) that uke's job is not to resist OR to be compliant; uke's job is to make nage do the best that they can.


Just my 2 (maybe 4),

WMReed


Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
All,

I was training in the dojo the other day and we working on jo-waza.I am currenly Orange Belt level. When I attacked a senior black belt , I grabbed the jo, he attempted to perform a technique, the one that resembles Shihonage.

I didnt work, so I was honest and didnt fall. He tried again, and everything he tried simply was not making me fall. So finally he took me down with an Iriminage.

The next day, I walked into the dojo early and Our head Sensei approached me and told me that 'my control' was not there and that the senior student was upset with me.

I have not approached the student nor tried to explain away what I beleived was simply being a good uke against a non-working technique. I think he'd appreciate my honesty and it would only make him better in the long run.

Thoughts?

William M. Reed
Columbus, OH USA
wmreed@columbus.rr.com
"I'm not the author William Reed -- yet."
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:16 PM   #13
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

How many times did you stop his technique in a row in the same fashion? Just once or more than once?

Rob
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:20 PM   #14
Jose Garrido
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

There are a lot of things to consider here. Let's look at some of them.
1...Did you purposely resist the technique because you knew what was coming?
2...Did your sempai allow you to clamp on hard prior to attempting the technique?
3...What was the reaction of both of you when the technique did not work?
4...Why did the sempai complain to the sensei about you?
5...Does the sempai usually complain about ukes?
6...Do people usually complain about you?
7...Do kohai frequently complain about this sempai?

I can go on and on, but the main thought here is that without actually witnessing the event it is very difficult to comment on it, simply because we all perceive things differently.

I would just let it ride and try to answer the questions that I wrote above as honestly as possible.

Aikido should teach among many things tolerance. Please continue your training in good faith. As an old saying goes"...and this to shall pass".

Jose' Garrido

Jose' delCristo Garrido
Nihon Goshin Aikido
Hakko-ryu Jujutsu
Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:19 PM   #15
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Something that struck me as I read through the posts as well that wasn't mentioned:

What happened when you changed positions and he attacked you? Did he shut down your ability to perform the technique as well?

It may help shed some insight into if this was co-operative training that didn't work or was turning into a competitive grudge match?

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-21-2006, 03:09 PM   #16
roosvelt
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Jose Garrido wrote:
There are a lot of things to consider here. Let's look at some of them.
1...Did you purposely resist the technique because you knew what was coming?
2...Did your sempai allow you to clamp on hard prior to attempting the technique?
3...What was the reaction of both of you when the technique did not work?
4...Why did the sempai complain to the sensei about you?
5...Does the sempai usually complain about ukes?
6...Do people usually complain about you?
7...Do kohai frequently complain about this sempai?
Why did you think the original poster should answer any of these questions?

The black belt should be able to handle the situation correctly, either verbally instruct the uke to coopertate, or physically make him , regardless the original poster, a brown belt, behaviour.

The "black belt" should mean something. If a black belt Aidikoka can't cope with a uke in a nonconfrotational situation, I wonder what his "aikido" good for.
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Old 04-21-2006, 04:00 PM   #17
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Why did you think the original poster should answer any of these questions?

The black belt should be able to handle the situation correctly, either verbally instruct the uke to coopertate, or physically make him , regardless the original poster, a brown belt, behaviour.

The "black belt" should mean something. If a black belt Aidikoka can't cope with a uke in a nonconfrotational situation, I wonder what his "aikido" good for.
My initial reaction would be because careful analysis of any situation normally reveals that there is plenty of blame to go around.
i.e. "It takes two to tango."

Yes, the senior student could have perhaps, and should have perhaps, handled the situation better. However, maybe if the uke had been more sincere in his attack there would have never been a situation that needed to be handled?

Maybe there is a reason the student felt the need to go to the instructor rather than handle it directly? Remember, we are seeing only one side of the situation.

Also, traditionally achieving the rank of "black belt" is the point where you truly "begin to learn" not the "end all be all" super enlightened martial arts god that it is made out to be in America on TV and in movies.

A black belt had a situation, for whatever reason, he felt he couldn't handle. He took it to his instructor. There are definitely worse ways he could have handled it.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-21-2006, 05:17 PM   #18
wmreed
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
The black belt should be able to handle the situation correctly, either verbally instruct the uke to coopertate, or physically make him , regardless the original poster, a brown belt, behaviour.
Based on the information provided, we have no evidence as to what the black belt student did. He very likely did all of these things. I think the questions give those of us who have been asked for our thoughts a better picture of what happened in this situation, without accusing anyone of anything.

Quote:
The "black belt" should mean something. If a black belt Aidikoka can't cope with a uke in a nonconfrotational situation, I wonder what his "aikido" good for.
I didn't hear anything about the class that implied the yudansha couldn't cope with the situation. We're not even sure what he actually said to the head sensei. Perhaps he asked sensei for guidance in the situation and the sensei decided of his own accord to step in.

The whole decision of who was to blame is pointless, in my opinion, because we haven't heard the whole story. I've worked with enough students to know that there's some important information we're missing.

I AM NOT accusing actoman of purposely leaving out details, but it would help if he clarified some things.

I would still be interested in knowing what the Sensei felt that actoman should have done. We were never told.

William M. Reed
Columbus, OH USA
wmreed@columbus.rr.com
"I'm not the author William Reed -- yet."
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Old 04-21-2006, 05:27 PM   #19
wmreed
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

(By the way actoman, is this the same instructor that you were frustrated with several months ago because he wasn't calling you about private lessons when you wanted him to? Did you guys resolve things or did you have to find a new dojo?)

William M. Reed
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Old 04-21-2006, 05:59 PM   #20
ccain85
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
Agreed with all the above. But....

How much would you learn if all your partners ever did was foil your attempt at completing a technique? Think you would ever get it "right"? I don't think I would.

.

i agree completely. this happens a lot in our dojo with some of the new people who let themselves think they are "better" than some because we older students ARE being nice.

To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:02 PM   #21
Ketsan
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I got kneed in the face by an instructor for not falling over on utchi kaiten. Well not so much falling over, but not going down far enough cuz frankly he didn't cut forward enough or in anyway break my balance. Anywho, I was sorta half bent over and there was a pause in the technique, then out the corner of my eye I saw movement, looked towards it and got a knee in the teeth and was angrily informed that "I can make you go down if I want".
I've not been back to HQ dojo since, although I'll have to go back at some point because "I need to be seen" apparently. Other wise they'll just automatically fail you on gradings for lack of dedication.
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:09 PM   #22
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I was uke during a technique involving atemi that needed to be aimed directly into my line of sight. if the nage is off just a hair, uke's brain won't perceive it as a threat and it won't work. my nage's atemi was offline so i didn't go down. it had just happened and before i got a chance to "help" my nage, the senior sempai walked by and lightly scolded me for not doing my part as a "good" uke: "Sometimes, the better part of valor is taking ukemi." it wasn't a big deal, and my guess is that it's happened to most of us at some point or another during our early (and later) years. of course, my nage or the other sempai didn't tell Sensei who then had a word with me in locker room, either. if both parties are sincere and honest in their training, it shouldn't be a problem.

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Old 04-21-2006, 07:21 PM   #23
mickeygelum
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

At your level, I think that I would welcome the opportunity to learn shihonage break falls...at a relaxed pace. The last thing that I would expect is to learn the breakfall at half or full speed.

My opinion only, a black belt could not effectively perform any technique that would result a breakfall....I would find somewhere else to train.....or I would be thankful that the black belt had enough restraint and fortitude to continue working with me.
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:33 PM   #24
Nick P.
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Why did you think the original poster should answer any of these questions?

The black belt should be able to handle the situation correctly, either verbally instruct the uke to coopertate, or physically make him , regardless the original poster, a brown belt, behaviour.

The "black belt" should mean something. If a black belt Aidikoka can't cope with a uke in a nonconfrotational situation, I wonder what his "aikido" good for.
With respect, we'll see how you feel when you reach that promised land.

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Old 04-22-2006, 03:32 AM   #25
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I got to say, I agree with Roosvelt on this, at least based on the little information we have from the original poster. Note that he did give "verbally instruct the uke to cooperate" as an option.

kvaak
Pauliina
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