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Old 03-08-2012, 06:59 AM   #51
Marc Abrams
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Folks,

We truly need to get over our diseased sense of self-importance/uniqueness.

A form of budo is little more than a stylized slice from an antiquated pie that derived itself from fighting systems from a LONG TIME AGO. Every form of budo has it's strengths and weaknesses unique to itself. No one slice of the pie is necessarily more universally tasty than the other.

Next time you are in a conflict, please take all of the time you need to continue with your overly intellectualized, philosophical pondering of the meaning of no conflict amidst conflict to be in harmony with O'Sensei' s message of making the world more peaceful as you connect with the universal powers that harmonize....... . Maybe your next of kin will report back to us as to how you made out in the violent encounter.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:43 AM   #52
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Aikido is unique because it uses the attacker's energy against him. It is a very gentle yet effective martial art therefore requiring very little strength so even elderly, women and children can learn.
Most martial arts 'clash', they have a very head-on collision with each other resulting in both attacker and defender getting hurt, whereas in Aikido only the attacker gets hurt
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:26 AM   #53
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Chua Halim wrote: View Post
Aikido is unique because it uses the attacker's energy against him. It is a very gentle yet effective martial art therefore requiring very little strength so even elderly, women and children can learn.
Most martial arts 'clash', they have a very head-on collision with each other resulting in both attacker and defender getting hurt, whereas in Aikido only the attacker gets hurt
Yes, that's the standard PR line. What's the truth?

1. Aikido is not unique in "us[ing] the attacker's energy against him". Practically every martial art could be said to do exactly that. Do you truly think that every other martial art is merely a contest of strength? Why, then, did Jigoro Kano teach judo to Keiko Fukuda?

2. Most martial arts don't "have a very head-on collision with each other". Again, this presumes that every other martial art is a "biggest horse wins" contest. What would be the point of that?

3. In a real-life encounter, someone using aikido is just as likely to become injured as someone using another martial art -- and, although you didn't bring out this popular fiction, is also just as likely to inflict serious damage on their attacker, rather than simply gently restrain them as the PR would have it.

Again, why do you need to be unique? Why do you need to be special? Why do you need to proclaim, "My style is better"? Do you think that it somehow makes you superior to other people, that you practice a "superior" style?
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:44 AM   #54
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Yeah BJJ uses the attackers strength against him too. Hence the term jiu jitsu.

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Old 03-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #55
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Ok, please explain ?
Do you really think further ellaboration is needed?

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Old 03-08-2012, 03:09 PM   #56
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you really think further ellaboration is needed?
You: "Grab my fist..!"
Me: "Hmm..no." (the distant sound of footsteps fading off rapidly..)

Last edited by lars beyer : 03-08-2012 at 03:22 PM. Reason: to correct my broken english..
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:19 AM   #57
Hanna B
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

We've had plenty replies saying aikido isn't unique, or at least no more unique than any given martial art.

If this thread was started on a web board 20 years ago. Would people have said that then? Even 10 years ago?

I am under the impression that the online aikido communhity has learned lots, from conversations with people who have experience in aikido and in other arts.

But I think that most aikido people out there still think that what they do is very, very special. I sure used to think so.
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:01 AM   #58
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Nothing wrong with it being special to you on a personal level. There are lots of things that resonate with us personally that make it special.

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Old 03-18-2012, 04:52 AM   #59
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote: View Post
We've had plenty replies saying aikido isn't unique, or at least no more unique than any given martial art.

If this thread was started on a web board 20 years ago. Would people have said that then? Even 10 years ago?

I am under the impression that the online aikido communhity has learned lots, from conversations with people who have experience in aikido and in other arts.

But I think that most aikido people out there still think that what they do is very, very special. I sure used to think so.
Hi Hanna
What do you think now..? That´s interresting
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:00 AM   #60
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

I'm with Kevin. There's a difference between, "This is the first and only time that I have had an experience like this," or "This is the only thing I do/have done that makes me feel like this," and "This thing that I am doing has characteristics that are shared by nothing else in the world". The world is much bigger than any one person's experience of it -- the ostrich sees only sand, but there's much more out there.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:27 AM   #61
Hanna B
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Hanna
What do you think now..? That´s interresting
This has been said already, I think. So it's the same thing all over again, just from the mouth of yet another individual.

The way I see it, aikido as a derivative of old Japanese jujutsu - and those are plenty. Pretty much all techniques you can find in aikido, and certainly all principles used, can also be found elsewhere in other derivatives of old Japanese jujutsu, many of them also in historically completely unrelated lines of martial arts.

The "no conflict" thing, "harmony" and what have you not. I think you will have plenty of people talking like this in old arts, where people have spent many years practising. After a certain amount of time I guess the "being able to win over others" gets boring, and you need more sophisticated goals. It's a gendai budo thing also, probably. Once you don't need the stuff in some kind of reality and you do the art for the art itself you will have other goals with training.

Morihei Ueshiba probably was a very unique individual, more so than the rest of us. But that also applies to some founders of other arts.

The only thing truly unique about aikido probably is the amount of people talking about non-confrontation etc regarding their training but then, not all aikidoists do this talking.

You didn't ask me what I used to think, but I'll answer that one anyhow. I used to think that aikido was somehow a more developed martial art, because of the not seeking aggression etc. I say people in the dojo who had karate background, judo background etc. and thought that they did that less developed things first, then they went for higher goals - maybe that is the logical development? Little did I know then that the flow of students in the other direction, from aikido to other arts, is of roughly the same size
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:19 AM   #62
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote: View Post
This has been said already, I think. So it's the same thing all over again, just from the mouth of yet another individual.

The way I see it, aikido as a derivative of old Japanese jujutsu - and those are plenty. Pretty much all techniques you can find in aikido, and certainly all principles used, can also be found elsewhere in other derivatives of old Japanese jujutsu, many of them also in historically completely unrelated lines of martial arts.

The "no conflict" thing, "harmony" and what have you not. I think you will have plenty of people talking like this in old arts, where people have spent many years practising. After a certain amount of time I guess the "being able to win over others" gets boring, and you need more sophisticated goals. It's a gendai budo thing also, probably. Once you don't need the stuff in some kind of reality and you do the art for the art itself you will have other goals with training.

Morihei Ueshiba probably was a very unique individual, more so than the rest of us. But that also applies to some founders of other arts.

The only thing truly unique about aikido probably is the amount of people talking about non-confrontation etc regarding their training but then, not all aikidoists do this talking.

You didn't ask me what I used to think, but I'll answer that one anyhow. I used to think that aikido was somehow a more developed martial art, because of the not seeking aggression etc. I say people in the dojo who had karate background, judo background etc. and thought that they did that less developed things first, then they went for higher goals - maybe that is the logical development? Little did I know then that the flow of students in the other direction, from aikido to other arts, is of roughly the same size
Ok, why do you practise Aikido, when there are so many equal arts without any real difference as you say.. that is if you practise Aikido ?

Lars
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:54 AM   #63
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Ok, why do you practise Aikido, when there are so many equal arts without any real difference as you say.. that is if you practise Aikido ?

Lars
Why would somebody eat strawberry ice cream instead of chocolate? Everybody wants to believe that they're doing what they're doing because it's the "best", but that's rarely the case.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-19-2012, 11:03 AM   #64
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Why would somebody eat strawberry ice cream instead of chocolate? Everybody wants to believe that they're doing what they're doing because it's the "best", but that's rarely the case.

Best,

Chris
Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.
Groucho Marx


Lars

PS. I think Hanna is old enough to answer her own questions
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:30 AM   #65
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Well for me personally, I'd say I don't really "do" Aikido anymore. Meaning I don't subscribe to anyone master or system per se. I do tend to seek out people that share a common interest or have a particular set of skills that I want to acquire or learn. My journey is my own now.

That said, most of us got our start somewhere. Mine was in DC with Saotome Sensei's dojo. So hence I tend to want to hang with people I've developed friendships with and still aspire to as teachers and people that have something to teach me.

I like Hanna, thought once upon a time that it was special. That kept me away from a lot of things that I could have learned too if I would have been open to other possibilities and paradigms.

I think most of us still do what we do cause that is what we do and that is where we have cultivated relationships etc. So as I said, that makes it special to us. Does not mean it is unique or special or distinctive in someway that cannot be found anywhere else. IMO that kind of myopic thinking can be dangerous.

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Old 03-19-2012, 12:00 PM   #66
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

What makes it unique to me is my experience. When I was training in karate, we used to hit and kick each other, when we sparred and I got hit, it didn't make me want to stop fighting, I went back harder. When I started Aikido and hit the mat hard for the first time, I laid there and took stock to make sure everything was where it was supposed to be and still working, and I didn't want to fight any more, and I was hooked.

Other than that it's another tool in the toolbox.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:06 PM   #67
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.
Groucho Marx


Lars

PS. I think Hanna is old enough to answer her own questions
Well sure she is, but the question that you asked is relevant to the question that started the whole thread - and that's what I'm talking about.

I really have no idea what you mean by the first part.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-19-2012, 12:58 PM   #68
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well sure she is, but the question that you asked is relevant to the question that started the whole thread - and that's what I'm talking about.

I really have no idea what you mean by the first part.

Best,

Chris
If your question goes back to the start of this thread, I don´t understand anything either- I never said Aikido was better.. I asked what people feel is unique about Aikido.
Some people give examples and others like you are talking about values.
What people believe they hear is their responsability, not mine.

Lars
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:31 PM   #69
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

I believe - and it is my ow experience - that people in the modern world mostly engage with martial arts (and most similar passionate pursuits) because they speak to their life koan, they adress an existentially important, often yet inchoate question deep within them, and - ideally - help them formulate it and work with it.

I also believe that aikido - as it is today - offers a unique and specific way to engage with that question in those cases when it has to do with violence and peace, conflict and cooperation, aggression and affection. As much as I love grappling and respect boxing etc. aikido offers a different perspective. I do not think it is superior in the least, and I dont think it is for everybody at all, but it is unique: When taught adquately, it can hold both extremes right from the start, and adress people who are interested in precisely that.

Whether aikido was originally meant to be that, whether is normally taught that way, or whether it is a budo or combative art, are all different questions for me.

Finally, that is my personal perspective - aikido means a lot of things to a lot of people, and I do not think we have to agree.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:48 PM   #70
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
If your question goes back to the start of this thread, I don�t understand anything either- I never said Aikido was better.. I asked what people feel is unique about Aikido.
Some people give examples and others like you are talking about values.
What people believe they hear is their responsability, not mine.

Lars
Well, I suppose that there is something "unique" about chocolate ice cream as opposed to strawberry, but the difference is virtually meaningless, isn't it? That's what I'm saying.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-19-2012, 01:56 PM   #71
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well for me personally, I'd say I don't really "do" Aikido anymore. Meaning I don't subscribe to anyone master or system per se. I do tend to seek out people that share a common interest or have a particular set of skills that I want to acquire or learn. My journey is my own now.

That said, most of us got our start somewhere. Mine was in DC with Saotome Sensei's dojo. So hence I tend to want to hang with people I've developed friendships with and still aspire to as teachers and people that have something to teach me.

I like Hanna, thought once upon a time that it was special. That kept me away from a lot of things that I could have learned too if I would have been open to other possibilities and paradigms.

I think most of us still do what we do cause that is what we do and that is where we have cultivated relationships etc. So as I said, that makes it special to us. Does not mean it is unique or special or distinctive in someway that cannot be found anywhere else. IMO that kind of myopic thinking can be dangerous.
I understand what youre saying.
In martial arts there are obviously many similarities as well as differences too many for me to list or even be aware of here.
I don´t have a problem with people or things being unique or special or one of a kind or even different
and contrasting because I don´t nessecarily put value in these differences and similarities.
I like things for being unique as well as being equal, it all depends on the premise and context.
Maybe I should have explained this but I was not really aware of it, so I guess it´s my fault to some extent but I do feel that some people hear what they want to hear and I can´t vouch for that I feel.

Peace
Lars
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:04 PM   #72
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, I suppose that there is something "unique" about chocolate ice cream as opposed to strawberry, but the difference is virtually meaningless, isn't it? That's what I'm saying.

Best,

Chris
I understand, but being a choclate affecionado I have to disagree !
(even I like strawberry with choclate)

Lars

Last edited by lars beyer : 03-19-2012 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Fun
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:15 PM   #73
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Ok, why do you practise Aikido, when there are so many equal arts without any real difference as you say.. that is if you practise Aikido ?

Lars
Sure there are differences. No two arts are the same - not two schools of aikido are the same, btw.

I dropped out of aikido for reasons that didn't really have to do with the actual training - and I was devastated. But after a while, I noticed that what I had wanted in aikido also was to be found elsewhere - that "good aikido" really equals "good jujutsu".

Quote:
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PS. I think Hanna is old enough to answer her own questions
Oh, I liked Chris Li's answer! And it's not like it's gonna stop me from adding my own.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:22 PM   #74
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

And if we're to discuss just how chocolate icecream is different from other icecreams, we're in trouble. Because there's so darn many kinds of chocolate ice cream! With chocolate chips in it, and without, and light brown or really really dark... Training in Iwama Ryu or in Ki Society - is it the same art? In a way, yes. But there are plenty of people who love one of the varietes and wouldn't touch the other with a stick. OK part of that is prejudice, but only part. The differences within the aikido umbrella is hugh.

I could try and define what I think is fairly unique about the line of aikido that I consider mine. But less than 5% of the participants of this board would then agree that I was describing "aikido". Some might even assume I was describing "bad aikido".

Last edited by Hanna B : 03-19-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:20 PM   #75
lars beyer
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Re: What makes Aikido unique as a martial art ?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote: View Post
Sure there are differences. No two arts are the same - not two schools of aikido are the same, btw.

I dropped out of aikido for reasons that didn't really have to do with the actual training - and I was devastated. But after a while, I noticed that what I had wanted in aikido also was to be found elsewhere - that "good aikido" really equals "good jujutsu".

Oh, I liked Chris Li's answer! And it's not like it's gonna stop me from adding my own.
Ok, I have aproximately 1/3 of a lifetime in total to practise Aikido and I feel the style of traditional Aikido I practise suits me just fine, I tried other aikido styles that didn´t suit me even I feel there are many things that various Aikido lineages have in common.
We have people crosstraining in the dojo but in my personal perspective this is less desireable because it takes a lifetime to master one art..so plenty of room for learning in my perspective.

Lars
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