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Old 02-29-2012, 03:13 PM   #51
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Why do you see having tested, verifiable martial skill as immediately being "greater violence"? Ueshiba had tested and verifiable martial skill, yet his is the 'the way of harmony", but others who seek the same are just looking for greater violence? explain please.
I am not saying it is either or the other, greater or lesser violence, it just seems to appear that way from the responses he gave. And the responses he gave to me do not appear to be the harmony of which Aikido to points to. Ineed I believe somebody once said "violence! or is there another way?"

If Mr Harden would like to give his thoughts on the thread how to be non-conpetitive, like I have invited him to do so, then I`m all up for listening.
But, it seems he has declined to do so, up to this point in time. Instead he gives opinions on people he has not met, with no validty to there skill, and tells people what he is doing is Budo, and anything anybody else is doing does not come close to what budo means, indeed he has summised people dont even know what budo means. To me this is an insult, but thats ok too, because I am not taking it too personally, even if it was ment to be, indeed I have smiled a little smile at some of the comments about me personally that have been made.

Ive trained in Aikido for 17 years (this is my eighteenth year), I Know what I`m doing, I know what I`m capable of, and what I am not, and I am fully aware of what I cannot do.
I am simply showing how we take those lesson`s of reality that are lernt in a real traditional non-competitive dojo and a martial art and apply them to the real outside world. Because if we dont, I will use a quote from O`sensei, "what use is it learning this or that technique, if you do not try your upmost." you may well be able to beat thwe enemy no matter what form it takes, but do you still not also lose?

Now this may sound like I`m have having a go at Mr Harden, but I`m not, I genuinely wish to know his thoughts on the thread in hand.

Andy B

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 02-29-2012 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:55 PM   #52
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Andrew B wrote:

Agreed, but damn....people don't share it. There are people out there that use it for themselves, that squander it and use it to oppress and control others. So, what is there to make them stop doing this if they really don't want to? I really liked Ghandi's approach for sure. (I am actually doing a session with my son on Ghandi for home schooling right now). However, why don't we see more of this happening in the world. Why haven't we seen more Ghandi's coming forward? The conditions must be present for this to work. If they are not there, then you need other means to resist, defend yourself, and restore fairness.

How do you shift the balance of power? What if love doesn't work. What if we can't reason and transcend with like.....philosophy and a smile?

Some times it is necessary to strike violence with greater violence, absolutely! It should be a means to do this. However, we also must realize the consequences and outcomes of our actions and realize the true nature of the power we do possess and the responsibility we have to use it appropriately. THAT is were the whole moral and ethical and Compassion part comes in.

Aikido and all Budo, IMO actually is a means for destruction and defeating. It is also a means of restoration. The mid-point of this is harmony. what is NOT harmony is ignoring the destroying and defeating side of the equation and focusing on the love and compassion side only. When you do that...you might have something good, but it ain't budo as Dan pointed out.
If that was what mr Harden (I call him that because I do not know him), then he sure went around the houses without adreessing the title of the thread, indeed his responses, appeared to be in the very negative spectrum of things.

That Said, I can find only one thing to disagree with you Kevin in the above post. That Budo is for defeating, I kind of agree that it maybe used for utter destruction Hiroshima & Nagasaki come time mind, but it neither makes it right or wrong it just what is, in this moment. This last comment may bring a string of criticism, please people see what I am saying before posting anything nasty.

In this way, the people of the day, used the most destructive means they had at there disposal to finish the fight quickly done finished over.
But and it is a very big but, were the powers that be on all sides ready for the consequences and the fall out of using such destructive means.
My point even if you utterly destroy the will of the enemy to carry on the fight, do you still not loose?
could you call that act Budo or not?
Would you not call it competition of the highest order?

Thoughts from all please?

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:27 PM   #53
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Also..... You can never make anybody do anything they truly do not want to do, even if you smack them in the face with the reality of what ever situation they are in.
Drug addicts come to mind here and they damage they cause themselves, but here the phrase drugs get me out of my "mind", to me absoloutly makes sense from the competing mind point of views I have been discussing. this is not justification, I simply understand it.
Change can only come from within you me, and everybody, and the will not to revert back to the dog eat dog, competing human mentality, indeed it is absoloutly the only way from within. I am just trying to point to what maybe possible with a true open heart and mind. That is being non`competititve in a competitive world

Andy B

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 02-29-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:09 PM   #54
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

NO

I call it survival, Take a life or lives to save lives. Is that not Budo or one of its ideas?
When you pare it down to elemental. Of course you cant seem to be able to do that with out attacking alleged collusion, conspiracy of competition.
So what did we lose after using the A bomb? Our innoccence? Our integrity, honor? Did we lose the peace that followed or did we win the peace?
Again this thread goes nowhere as did the last, because you ask for opinion and then cherry pick what you deem useful and cast off the rest as some kind of treason to the human race.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:04 PM   #55
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
If Mr Harden would like to give his thoughts on the thread how to be non-conpetitive, like I have invited him to do so, then I`m all up for listening.
But, it seems he has declined to do so, up to this point in time. Instead he gives opinions on people he has not met, with no validty to there skill, and tells people what he is doing is Budo, and anything, anybody else is doing does not come close to what budo means, indeed he has summised people dont even know what budo means. To me this is an insult, but thats ok too, because I am not taking it too personally, even if it was ment to be, indeed I have smiled a little smile at some of the comments about me personally that have been made.

Now this may sound like I`m have having a go at Mr Harden, but I`m not, I genuinely wish to know his thoughts on the thread in hand.

Andy B
This will be the second, and the last time I ever talk to you- no matter whay you say or do.

You have a pattern.
People talk in general terms and you take everything personal. Even when you are directly told it had not one thing to do with you. Secondarily you continue to conflate posts so far past their meaning that it simply ends all real chance of communication.
In two threads I have spoken to long time posters and you...beyond all bounds of reason make it all about you.
This comment of yours:
Quote:
Instead he gives opinions on people he has not met, with no validty to there skill, and tells people what he is doing is Budo, and anything, anybody else is doing does not come close to what budo means, indeed he has summised people dont even know what budo means. To me this is an insult, but thats ok too, because I am not taking it too personally, even if it was ment to be, indeed I have smiled a little smile at some of the comments about me personally that have been made.
No where did I make a statement such as that, involve the points you raised or refer to you in any way. This is the second time you have interrupted into a conversion not involving you and flatly stated it was all about you. As surprised as I am, it has let me know that it would be pointless to talk to you.

To be clear-I didn't give you any thought whatsoever, I was talking to people I know.
I would certainly appreciate it -one last time- for you to realize if I am talking about you I will either talk to you or use your name. Until you display some recognition of what is actually being said by me and others, I would prefer that you please not contact me or refer to me in any way. Don't even reply to this post.
Thank you
Dan
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:31 PM   #56
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
you talk about civilization, can you tell me what is so civil about the way we treat each other! letting starving countries starve when we have enough food to feed everyone, wether you believe this or not, we should at least have real efforts to do so. not have a fundraiser every now and then so we can feel good about ourselves for maybe giving a few pounds/dollars to put a sticking plaster over the real situation.
This drives me nuts. Do you have the courage required to deal with this problem for real? Cuz it ain't pretty.

You want to know the biggest reason for starvation in the world? Bad governments. Malnutrition? Poor health care? Refugees? Bad governments. You want to deal with the root cause, rather than putting a band-aid (Americanism there) on it? You've got to deal with the problem of bad governments. Look anywhere in the world: South vs. North Korea, Haiti vs. Dominican Republic, Spain 40 years ago vs. Spain now, etc.--it's not the people, it's the government.

So what's your proposal? Regime change? Been there, tried that, got the T-shirt, it's shot full of holes. Sanctions? Slow, painful, and the pain falls on the most vulnerable. Shovel money into the country? It goes to the bad men in the bad government. Deliver aid yourself? The bad governments won't let you. Run around bleating about aiki and love? Makes you feel good, but who does it feed?

Myself, I think we've got to get to the point where national sovereignty is limited. If you've got blood running in your streets or people dying like flies from curable conditions, expect to be tossed out at the point of the gun. But it won't happen until we accept that that kind of intervention always comes at a cost and sometimes, when a bad government over there coincides with a feckless and incompetent government over here, at a great cost. And we also have to have the courage to walk away when the minimal task is done, and resist the temptation to run other people's lives for them.

But that's just me. Got a better answer?
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:56 PM   #57
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This will be the second, and the last time I ever talk to you- no matter whay you say or do.

You have a pattern.
People talk in general terms and you take everything personal. Even when you are directly told it had not one thing to do with you. Secondarily you continue to conflate posts so far past their meaning that it simply ends all real chance of communication.
In two threads I have spoken to long time posters and you...beyond all bounds of reason make it all about you.
This comment of yours:

No where did I make a statement such as that, involve the points you raised or refer to you in any way. This is the second time you have interrupted into a conversion not involving you and flatly stated it was all about you. As surprised as I am, it has let me know that it would be pointless to talk to you.

To be clear-I didn't give you any thought whatsoever, I was talking to people I know.
I would certainly appreciate it -one last time- for you to realize if I am talking about you I will either talk to you or use your name. Until you display some recognition of what is actually being said by me and others, I would prefer that you please not contact me or refer to me in any way. Don't even reply to this post.
Thank you
Dan
Then why post anything at all on a thread that I started, if it was not directly related to me or the thread in question, was it to deliberately to get my my back up. Surely if you wanted a conversation about something else not related to me or anything that I had written why write it in a thread you had as it seems no interest in taking part in. This simply makes no sense whatsoever. I would say even rude.
That's just crazy. Yes I thought it was about me or at least my ideas because you post those comments on a thread I started. And still you would not address the honest questions I have proposed to you.

Some of the comments you made were indeed talking about Budo not being understood. This seems like deliberate trolling to me. Actually I had never heard this expression until you used it on the previous thread and I had to ask a friend who showed me the definition, somebody who deliberately post something on-line to cause an argument, and get a reaction. So I thank you for teaching me something at least.

Is that not what you have just done. If you do not wish to talk discuss and comment on topics I may bring up then that is fine Mr Harden, no problem there. May I suggest that in future you may want to start a thread of your own, and not carry on conversations within others threads, that you have no desire to partake in, and when people question those comments you deny it was anything to do with the thread poster, and accuse them of making it personal. You made it personal, not me.

I have never ment you harm verbal or otherwise, but the way you have conducted yourself is quite beyond belief, or maybe I am one of those deluded persons with no skills whatsoever with no clue what Budo means, and you are trying to convey this a particularly weird way?

If you never wish to speak to me again that is fine, I offer the hand of friendship with this prayer:

Dan May you go ahead in life in love and peace, even if you don't think so, I still feel everybody is one, we are all brothers.

In Budo

Andy B

P.S
Please if anyone thinks I have completely missed the point here either private message me or indeed feel free to post it here, I truly have no idea what he is talking about!

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 02-29-2012 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:14 PM   #58
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This drives me nuts. Do you have the courage required to deal with this problem for real? Cuz it ain't pretty.

You want to know the biggest reason for starvation in the world? Bad governments. Malnutrition? Poor health care? Refugees? Bad governments. You want to deal with the root cause, rather than putting a band-aid (Americanism there) on it? You've got to deal with the problem of bad governments. Look anywhere in the world: South vs. North Korea, Haiti vs. Dominican Republic, Spain 40 years ago vs. Spain now, etc.--it's not the people, it's the government.

So what's your proposal? Regime change? Been there, tried that, got the T-shirt, it's shot full of holes. Sanctions? Slow, painful, and the pain falls on the most vulnerable. Shovel money into the country? It goes to the bad men in the bad government. Deliver aid yourself? The bad governments won't let you. Run around bleating about aiki and love? Makes you feel good, but who does it feed?

Myself, I think we've got to get to the point where national sovereignty is limited. If you've got blood running in your streets or people dying like flies from curable conditions, expect to be tossed out at the point of the gun. But it won't happen until we accept that that kind of intervention always comes at a cost and sometimes, when a bad government over there coincides with a feckless and incompetent government over here, at a great cost. And we also have to have the courage to walk away when the minimal task is done, and resist the temptation to run other people's lives for them.

But that's just me. Got a better answer?
No Hugh I do not. However I do seriously appreciate the honest and blunt answer. And as I believe I said earlier Aikido, is not always pretty.
But we simply can't continue the way we are headed. It's sounds daft I know be we have to save ourselves from ourselves, otherwise there maybe not much humanity left in the world to see the next century. Yes governments play a major role in this, but how do we elect a government, has this too not turned into a circus of pathetic competion, and it is the people who inact the governments orders we also have to question.
What if an entire Army turned around and said simply NO. Not in my name, that is just wrong, that would be a start. Because they would have stopped competing. Instantly, spontaneously and with courage.

Anyone can say yes we will do this that and the other, I can't rememeber the last time I herd one politician in the west came forward and said with honesty with courage and dignity, NO not in my name, the bailing of the banks is just one thing that comes to mind here. Stop the competition and stop it now, stop the starving and the kids dying of thurst, dying by guns and all the other foul ways we destroy each other in the world, if one among us had the courage to just say, NO No No, not in my name will allow this madness to continue?

There is my answer Hugh, Just a simple No, but it's not easy I will give you that.

Andy B

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 02-29-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:47 PM   #59
Stephen Nichol
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

** Caution, Wall of Text Incomming **

Just going to attempt a little damage control here.

Starting off with stating that text alone generally leaves a lot to be desired in the way of 'tone'. Even when we do take the time to attempt phrasing things in the best possible way and use the smiles to help convey that tone and emotion... not everyone is going to read it the way it was intended.

People skim, skip, simply do not have or want to take the time to read, re-read, reflect on a discussion like this. Even if they do, they can easily 'read into' what has been said and in some instances, forget for a moment that in a thread like this, all replies, statements, opinions are not directed at the original poster.. the universe does not revolve around 'me' so why should all replies in a thread 'on the internets' revolve around me either?

So then it 'feels' like a personal attack of some sort.

So to be clear I will refrain from using 'you' which anyone reading this, especially the original poster, could possibly think it means them personally and I will use any other pronoun or combination of them such as: 'someone' 'people' 'they' etc.. unless I directly address that person.

My reading of this whole thread is fairly simple.

My take DH's point of view is very straight forward:

1. Martial Arts need to be martially effective FIRST, truly effective. If people are going to say they practice a 'martial art' then they had better be able to demonstrate martial effectiveness in a martial situation. (not going to touch specifics such as 'they claim to know and use Aiki/IP/IS - insert short form of every other term in the known and unknown universe for 'the secret recipe and need to demonstrate that.)

2. If someone 'studies' martial arts but do not 'practice' what they study in a martial manner in martial situations, they should not claim or attempt to pass off what is being done as a 'practice' of martial art'.

This would be in an academic pursuit such as a historian who is extremely knowlegible about a martial art's history, origins, practices and people involved however they do not actually 'use it' for themselves.

Individuals who 'go through the motions' of a martial art but are focused on the 'art' (heavily slanted toward the purely spiritual side) and not the 'martial' and feel that 'they' are entitled (as they believe they are doing what was really intended from the beginning and those that train for combat effectiveness actually have it wrong) to all the titles, trappings, recognition of those who actually test their 'martial practice' of the 'art' (jitsu, jutsu, do, etc..) in 'live/resistive/full intent (but controlled?)' martial situations. These are the people that really get under DH's skin.

At no point have I seen (and I could be wrong) where DH has argued Andy's belief in 'being' and 'no ego', 'senseless competition for the sake of it'. Others have and they have done so from their experiences and have stated as such.

I have not read DH's replies to this thread and understood anything he said to be an assumption of Andy's martial effectiveness at all. He was only referring to 'those people' who mimic but do not test themselves in the a way he (and others) consider 'martially effective' manner.

Andy, understand I am not defending DH, I am pretty sure he can and has done that rather well on these forums and in this thread.

I am not judging either.

I have made posts about my feelings on why I train, how I train, the results I strive to achieve and my respect for each person to have their own goals in their training for themselves.

Andy, you have repeatedly made your point regarding your beliefs, goals, spiritual training objectives.

Unfortunately you may have misunderstood some of the posts/cross replies as being directed at you when perhaps they were not and posted replies accordingly. I prefer to not make the assumption as I have know way to 'know' what you were thinking/feeling during those moments you read and replied to those posts. I am merely making an observation and doing my best to get back to middle ground.

For what it is worth:

I approach my life with 'The Power of Now' system as best I can. I am not perfect, I make mistakes, I catch myself 'dwelling' and 'day dreaming' (usually about Aikido class). I laugh and smile when I catch my mind 'ceaselessly wandering around the past and possible futures' and try to put it back in its box until I need to to solve a task at hand. I do not judge even myself for letting my mind run around out of its box because no one got hurt by it. I lost some time 'right now' because of it, I missed out on some of that 'stillness' and ability to focus on the moment I have 'right now', but no true harm became of it.

I approach my Aikido training in much the same way. I train Iwama Ryu, Takemusu Aikido with a very clear approach to resistance to establish centre, connection, take balance immediately etc etc..

I had to learn very quickly not to expect perfection of myself in my techniques, simply improvement. Even my own expectations of how quick or slow I should 'get' a technique or see the underlying principle of Aikido 'in the technique' could lead me to become frustrated. I have recently learned to apply the same 'power of now' approach to it. I train, try to learn, understand and look to always improve and know there always more to learn. I will 'get' it when I do.

It will happen when it happens. I am happy right 'now' with that. If I will only be happy 'when' I get it then I will never be happy will I?

Here is Andy's situation with this thread/forum as I see it: The medium of text, this thread, this forum. We do not truly know you. We cannot easily see your living example so we are not in a position to know what to 'think' or feel about 'you' with the point you present in the way you present it.

To your point of competition, the human condition, the minds ability to destroy itself (creating 'problems' simply to have something to think about) and how it all ties into 'martial arts', 'martial artists', 'your instruction of your students' in this belief system... I said it before:

You can only lead by example and if they like what they see, you can only show them the path and explain it... they have to walk it for themselves.

People here do not know you. We have not been able to train with you, see your example as you live it each moment... so how can they begin? Sure some of us come to this path on our own, by other means.. many paths etc... but those that have or are on a path very similar or close will be able to see you on yours... but they may still really like the one they are on. They will have their reasons. Accept that.

When we come here, post here about it is no different. Present your case, prepare to see others points. Do not judge them even if they judge yours (after all you brought it to the table for discussion) and always, always reflect on the reactions you get.

I do not mean to preach here but please consider the following:

I get the feeling you train a martially applicable 'style' of Aikido. When you do so, do you always 'check' the reaction of your training partner for the desired effect of your Aikido in the technique you are using 'with' them?

If you do not get the result you are expecting or seeking... do you not take a moment right then and 'now' to reflect, 'observe' and learn from it? Find the middle point to establish 'Aiki' and let the technique work for itself?

So by the same measure... if you come here and post anything at all, especially a philosophical belief system that others may not understand/ be ready for or able to accept or simply flat out deny it (its feasibility)... well, do you 'resist' that reaction that your mind creates in you when you read all this or can you simply accept it, find the Aiki within to try again to communicate it in another way.

I can see from your posts that you do try and the effect is well.. this brings me back to the begining. The same as the medium of text is the same, the audience is the same... the situation is the same. Not all of us can see your example through our own experience...

To address the issue of 'Spiritual / Moral High Ground' combined with 'Teh Deadly Ninja Death Touch skills of peace and harmony'...

When 'we' as practicioners of 'martial' arts are 'at peace' with 'ourselves first' and can act out of that peace and not with artificial, mind created or percieved fear, heated emotions, substances that alter our ability to be 'clear'.... then we can enter into combative violence with others who seek to do us harm for whatever 'insane' cause they may believe they have... it does not matter at that point. The action has been taken and needs to be dealt with.

All we can do is train and prepare ourselves both physically and mentally (spiritually for those that prefer that terminology) to always be ready and accept that the need to use our physical skills may never happen. If we do at one moment need the skill... hopefully it will be there for us.

I believe that with some things... it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. To that end I train for martial effectiveness as best I can.

My intentions are to always serve others before myself. Care for others as best I can. Protect myself and those that need it should I be in a position and situation to do so.

So even if: Some random ex Russian spetznaz and French Foriegn Legionaire have a love child that is hell bent on my destruction because they do like the way I cut my hair (I have very little) and the cloths I wear and pulls out his human heat seeking death ray... I will not act from hate, mind created fear (real fear of lose of my life and potential harm to others, especially those I care about is 'OK') about a possible Russian and French alliance that is doomed to a communist utopian alliance of 'surrender and then work with the enemy' (oh wait, that sounds vaguely familiar to some other principle I heard mentioned somewhere... ) but I will defend myself, I will kill if necessary.. and I would hope I never, ever have to find out what 'necessary' will be.

Last edited by Stephen Nichol : 02-29-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:02 PM   #60
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Hi Stephen, I applaud you on you well thought out and presented post.

I admit I may have been too overly zealous, and preachy, in my replies, and I truly did not see the persctive you have given to Dan H's post/s. my last and final message to Dan was a very sinncere one ( prayer). I also appologise to anyone if they felt uncomfortable with the tone and forcefulness of my posts/thread. Absolutely no harm was intended from my part, and yes I also admit it truly felt like a personal attack on my martial effectiveness the way some things were worded. I too practice Iwama Aikido, indeed the weapons class Kyoshi Payne has asked me to teach is, Saito Sensei's/ueshiba's Aiki ken & Jo. It is the only weapons work I have been taught so that is all I teach. I do not teach what I pretend to know, so to speak.

I too, see the very real need of the teachings of the power of now, and also if you wish to look at it, the video of Mr tolle, the flowering of human consciousness, great watch actually, is available to watch on you tube.

Thank you for teaching me the most important lesson I forgot for a while, whilst I had my mind stolen by the very threads I tried convey my uderstanding in all of this, and that is, Humility.

I was and am just sick of it all, literally sick to death of the violence in this world that is so unecessary, that as I see it, comes from the over competing Human mind, and I just had to tell someone how I felt, here seemed as good as place as any to be honest.

Off to bed now, this is how seriously I take these discussions and the art I practice, it's ten to five in the morning, And for the life of me I could not see where I had gone wrong here. I have now been awake for just a little over twenty four hours thinking nothing but this, apart obviously when I was at work till midnight.

I cannot thank you enough, deep appologees to all, especially and I do mean this to Dan H, I hope we will find some middle ground one day.

Thank you again Stephen.

Best wishes to all,

As always In Budo,

Andy B
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:05 PM   #61
Stephen Nichol
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
No Hugh I do not. However I do seriously appreciate the honest and blunt answer. And as I believe I said earlier Aikido, is not always pretty.
But we simply can't continue the way we are headed. It's sounds daft I know be we have to save ourselves from ourselves, otherwise there maybe not much humanity left in the world to see the next century. Yes governments play a major role in this, but how do we elect a government, has this too not turned into a circus of pathetic competion, and it is the people who inact the governments orders we also have to question.
What if an entire Army turned around and said simply NO. Not in my name, that is just wrong, that would be a start. Because they would have stopped competing. Instantly, spontaneously and with courage.

Anyone can say yes we will do this that and the other, I can't rememeber the last time I herd one politician in the west came forward and said with honesty with courage and dignity, NO not in my name, the bailing of the banks is just one thing that comes to mind here. Stop the competition and stop it now, stop the starving and the kids dying of thurst, dying by guns and all the other foul ways we destroy each other in the world, if one among us had the courage to just say, NO No No, not in my name will allow this madness to continue?

There is my answer Hugh, Just a simple No, but it's not easy I will give you that.

Andy B
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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This drives me nuts. Do you have the courage required to deal with this problem for real? Cuz it ain't pretty.

You want to know the biggest reason for starvation in the world? Bad governments. Malnutrition? Poor health care? Refugees? Bad governments. You want to deal with the root cause, rather than putting a band-aid (Americanism there) on it? You've got to deal with the problem of bad governments. Look anywhere in the world: South vs. North Korea, Haiti vs. Dominican Republic, Spain 40 years ago vs. Spain now, etc.--it's not the people, it's the government.

So what's your proposal? Regime change? Been there, tried that, got the T-shirt, it's shot full of holes. Sanctions? Slow, painful, and the pain falls on the most vulnerable. Shovel money into the country? It goes to the bad men in the bad government. Deliver aid yourself? The bad governments won't let you. Run around bleating about aiki and love? Makes you feel good, but who does it feed?

Myself, I think we've got to get to the point where national sovereignty is limited. If you've got blood running in your streets or people dying like flies from curable conditions, expect to be tossed out at the point of the gun. But it won't happen until we accept that that kind of intervention always comes at a cost and sometimes, when a bad government over there coincides with a feckless and incompetent government over here, at a great cost. And we also have to have the courage to walk away when the minimal task is done, and resist the temptation to run other people's lives for them.

But that's just me. Got a better answer?
Well Hugh has the big picture down as most of us acknowledge it. Right down to the way in which we intervene in each others lives / countries.

I understand Andy's point about the change has to start with ourselves first. He feels that we as martial artists have that responsibility to 'be' this way and to pass that along.

The simplest analogy I can think of (and I do this ever so cautiously ) is Star Wars, the ideals, moral code and ethics of the Jedi vs the ideals, moral code(?) and ethics(?) of Sith and pretty much everyone in between.

In our reality we have no 'all unity force' but we do share a lot in common as simple 'humans'. Food, shelter etc..

We cannot force change on others... not truly. We can stop one person or group of people from harming another person or group of people. We can do this with law enforcement, as vigilantes, as a seriously concerned citizen with martial arts skills in the right place at the right time... or, as a soldier, sworn to duty in service of a country whos ideals you swear to uphold.

So on the individual level, you have self discipline, control, desire to do what is right by others and yourself. Do no harm.

On the social community level, we have law enforcement to serve and protect. (Not going to go into justice systems... whole lot of 'gray area' and a rather large black hole in the middle)

On the national level.. we have the military.

On the global level... we have .. um, the UN right?

Or unilateral action of one nation vs. another for whatever reason they come with... 'we did it for their own good' or 'we did it for our own good' or 'we did it before they did it to us' and my favorite 'we did it for everyone's interests because 'we' know what is best for everyone else... mmm hmm.' (no specifics, many nations have done this in the past and will sadly repeat it in the future.)

Even if it is just the country's leadership doing it to its own country... the road to some place of failure (as viewed by others who sit back and judge) is paved with best intentions... even if some of those intention are a little self centered.

So yes, 'IF' everyone was wanting to change within themselves, truly seek to make all situations around them better... and honestly, only as far as their immediate community but with the understanding that each community level can help the others and so on... sure, it could happen. Eventually that could spread but it would only survive at the 'my sphere, community level'.

Because at the end of the day, no matter how much I wish no harm to come to anyone and that everyone has a roof over their head, food to eat and warm bed and people who love and care for them... I do not know them. If they are suffering due to their government situation, community situation, family situation, or die in a tragic accident, act of mother nature or whatever.. I am most likely not going to 'sincerely' affected by their deaths or harsh life situation. I will reflect on it, appreciate what I have, what I can share, thank those that protect my nation which allows me this ability to write this stuff on the internets... but outside of my 'sphere'.. I can only wish everyone out 'there', 'be well'.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:11 PM   #62
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Andrew B wrote:

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What if an entire Army turned around and said simply NO. Not in my name, that is just wrong, that would be a start. Because they would have stopped competing. Instantly, spontaneously and with courage.
The bad guys would rejoice and pick up where they left off.

If you really think your ideas are the immediate solution to the problem, then I would invite you to go to say Afghanistan in the Hindu Kush up in a small village near the Pakistan border. A village that is beautiful to be honest, full of hard working people that simply want to live their lives locally, and have their community and have their freedoms from the oppression of others.

Go there and talk to the village elders about their history. Go there and have some Chai with the men and talk to them about what they have experienced at the hands of others. Ask them about their experiences. Stay a few days and when the Taliban and/or A.Q come through, go out there and stand in the street and tell them ENOUGH!

There are several places in South Sudan where you should go to Tell them to stop taking the children away to work for them and to stop making them child soldiers. Tell them you won't participate any longer in the violence. Tell them they need to stop the insanity and the "competitive mind". Reason with them, make them see that there is another way.

Why confine your training and teachings to your dojo? If it works so well, then you have a great responsibility has a human and a budoka to go out in the world and to stop this stuff!!

Andrew, you have my word, if you can demonstrate that what you believe works in reality, then lets motivate ARMIES of westerners to go forward and put an end to this NOW.

I don't think you'd find one person on this forum that would not folllow you and admit they were wrong if you were able to do that.

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Old 02-29-2012, 11:35 PM   #63
graham christian
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
It sure Does Graham, good to hear from you again. Although you and I have not always agreed in the past, I cannot agree with you more on this point. What i am saying if you dont see this, and feel it by dropping the mind of centention then it wil never be true for you, whoever that may be.

Great reply many thanks.

Andy B
Thank you.
Peace.G.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:58 PM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Andrew B wrote:

Quote:
I was and am just sick of it all, literally sick to death of the violence in this world that is so unecessary, that as I see it, comes from the over competing Human mind, and I just had to tell someone how I felt, here seemed as good as place as any to be honest.
I think we can all agree that we are sick to death of the violence and it should end. No one wants that anymore than me!!!

I do my best on a interpersonal and personal level to do the little things in life that, while they won't make a difference today or tomorrow, maybe one day. I am a vegetarian and have been since 9/11. I thought hard about the senseless killing and murder in this world and thought to myself, if we have any hope at evolution as a species, AND if we cannot treat animals with respect and humanely, then what hope do we have with our own race! So, I decided to stop eating meet or any action that directly participated in killing of animals. I have not eating meat or flesh of any creature since that day (intentionally).

Felt good about myself, until I realized that the boots I wear, the new car I just bought, all had leather in them. I tried my best to justify it, to mitigate it some how. All over the place I saw how, as much as I tried, at best I was a hypocrite.

I finally realized that everyone is to some degree, and there is no way around it! I read alot of the writings of the Dali Lama too

Anyway, it is important to be the change you want to see in the world. It is also important to realize that at best we are all hyprocrites. What is important is not necessarily that you draw a hard line and refuse to cross it, but forgive yourself and others when they do, and try simply to do better!

Mindfullness is what is important when we do what we do. Think about it, and the causes/effects and try and make informed decisions as we navigate through the uncertainty.

I don't preach to others about being a vegetarian or hold them in judgement. I simply do it because it is a practice that I feel is right for me, and serves to remind me of what I need to do. It is a ritual and a spiritual practice.

When I travel with others, they find out of course. It makes them think, they look at me and see a big strong guy that has not eating meet in over 11 or so years, and is able to live, survive, and do so in a "BIG" way. They are able to think about it for a minute and see the possibilities.

So, I am happy, because for a moment I shifted their thought patterns!

So yes, the little things matter. They do.

So, I appreciate your honesty and I certainly sympathize with your concern over the insanity of violence. I am in a position where I see suffering and the corruption that causes it ALOT.

I am just as passionate about ending it as you are. I don't have the ultimate solution, but I have seen ways to slow it down, to put an end to it for SOME people and to help others.

In this day and age, it requires people to have courage to stand up and fight for what they believe in. It requires the whole of our world. It requires Peace Corps workers, volunteers, and moms, and dads.

It also requires warriors.

It requires Warriors to stand up to others that can't fight back. It requires Warriors to educate others to be strong and to defend themselves.

Being a warrior is not for everyone. It is a choice we make. Budo is the way of the warrior. That is my point. It is just as fine to be a peace corps worker or a church worker.

I would not go to the Peace Corps or a Church and tell them they need to pick up guns and fight. They have a different "fight".

It astounds me though, why people would come to Budo and try and change it away from it's purpose as a "bridge" between peace and violence.

Maybe the fact that it sits so close to the middle more than anything else, it is a challenge to keep it centered at the midpoint!

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Old 02-29-2012, 11:58 PM   #65
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Kevin:

You struck at the heart of the issue that seems to attract a certain type of person to Aikido (to the detriment of the integrity of the art- in my opinion). People would love to be able to allay their fears regarding real violence. It is easy to practice Aikido and pretend that you have been able to reconcile violence through greater love and harmony, without ever having to really do so. It is the easiest and most convenient delusion available to achieve while you pretend that you are actually doing Aikido. I do not believe that these people consciously ignore the destroying and defeating aspects as much as they are genuinely too afraid to directly confront this issue. When they can live very comfortably within their self-defined, safe worlds, they can continue to insist that they have indeed confronted this "evil" and "transcended" beyond it with their flowerly words. As long as they do not have to genuinely confront those "bad realities", they can continue to say that we do not get it yet, understand where they come from, etc.... As you said so eloquently, "you might have something good, but it ain't budo.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
A masterpiece - could not agree more. Martial trascendence means to be able to dominate violence. To me, like it seems to you, the equation true_martial_competence=ruthless_violence_management is clear & unescapable (btw, not implying I am able - implying, rather, that I would not settle down, ever, for any goal different from this).

I don't care how much transcendent one may be: I am fine with whatever degree of it, and as far as I am concerned one can also be as much trascendental as a seraph could go and I would encourage him/her in his/her pursuit.

Yet, that trascendence, no matter how it is structured, if it must be Martial, must be able to neutralize violence - and when I say violence i don't mean the all too convenient setting of running away (which, yet, by all accounts I advocate you should attempt first in a real situation, if you can) or of mesmerizing your opponent with your spiritual stare: I want to see the guy in action in a setting where s/he can't run away and has to accept of being physically engaged, in order to evaluate whether s/he is Budo or not...
That's the Martial part. The Art one is: you master the situation so much that you won't use any weapon whatever but only the ones of your martial art, for mastery stays precisely in the fact that whilst your opponent can be ruthless, you can not. If you could be as ruthless as him (stab, kick groins, break necks, punch, crash chairs on heads...), where's the "Art"?

But, one question: how do you reconcile yourself, having this belief within, with the way aikido is practiced in most dojos?
Because, certainly, the aikido that is practiced in most dojos is not Budo.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 03-01-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:16 AM   #66
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

A founders vision, this martial art is not for leading the world into destruction by the piling up of weapons, But a way to reconcile the worlds differences, indeed Aikido full fills religion, and can purify the hearts and minds of the aggressor.

If the Aikido world as it seems cannot buy into. Share a vision of this possibility, Willing to accept there is indeed another way that is not based in constant competition with one another, then I do ask the question. What's the point of practicing it?

It becomes empty, empty practice,empty words, and we become empty.

I really don't have much more to say on the competitive mind, it's obvious to me and a few others the degradation that it causes and must be curbed or stopped altogether, by saying no more, each one of us, no more.

No you cannot change people, if they truly don't want to, then it must be our job as a human being, to stop the madnes the insanity and cruelty ourselves, starting today with ourselves, and pray to whoever god you believe in that it works, because we can see from history, more violence does not cut it either.
Change can only come from the individual, simply saying, No more, enough is enough, I think O' sensei said this to terry Dobson, when discussing weight training. No Terry enough is enough, no more.

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:34 AM   #67
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Alberto wrote:

Quote:
But, one question: how do you reconcile yourself, having this belief within, with the way aikido is practiced in most dojos?
Because, certainly, the aikido that is practiced in most dojos is not Budo
I don't concern myself too much about what is practiced in most dojos. I try to only concern myself about what I am practicing. I believe that budo is personal. The practice of budo is about me and no one else. I need to work on myself, that is all I can really affect. I can only choose what I do and my own actions. Therefore, what others do is no business or concern of mine.

Of course, I am happy to share a commonality between other like minded people on the path. You know what, we tend to find each other! My current "dojo community" is made up of some very interesting people. We are all over the world in some very interesting places. We train when we can and each of us brings to the table a different set of goals, skills, and perspectives.

I tend to not spend too much time with people that do not share the same priorities.

it is really as simple as that.

I think that most budoka should really not be concerned with what others are doing, but what they themselves are doing. I love to talk about budo, to be budo, to do it, and I am happy to train with anyone, anywhere, any time that want to do the same. I have no desire to be the savior of aikido, nor do I think that it needs to be saved.

What will happen, is as people become more educated and aware and find each other, they will begin to walk away from the things they begin to understand are not things they want to spend time with.

So, I think, those that want to change things for themselves will find each other and "aikido" will evolve. Those dojos that want to continue in the ways that they want to continue may do so. They will always attract a certain personality type.

Nothing wrong with that. Those of us that have a difference of opinion simply need to continue to hold ourselves accountable and the ones that are really on the path will find us.

I want to be clear though that even though there are those schools out there that say they are doing budo....they may not be doing it, and in their hearts I think they know that when they look deep.

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Old 03-01-2012, 05:56 AM   #68
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

budo, the way of the warrior is a hard path. you stand between peace and violence, i.e. half of you for peace and half for violent. harmony isn't about peace. it's about balance. balance between dark and light, between good and bad, between yin and yang, between peace and violent. that's easterner thinking, balance. BALANCE is the key or ki or aiki or whatever. kinda like donut and coffee, you must have balance, can't have one without the other.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:08 AM   #69
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

..and you must keep an eye out over your shoulder cause there is always a cop lurking near by to take your donut and upset the balance of nature!

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:58 AM   #70
Marc Abrams
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
A founders vision, this martial art is not for leading the world into destruction by the piling up of weapons, But a way to reconcile the worlds differences, indeed Aikido full fills religion, and can purify the hearts and minds of the aggressor.

If the Aikido world as it seems cannot buy into. Share a vision of this possibility, Willing to accept there is indeed another way that is not based in constant competition with one another, then I do ask the question. What's the point of practicing it?

It becomes empty, empty practice,empty words, and we become empty.

I really don't have much more to say on the competitive mind, it's obvious to me and a few others the degradation that it causes and must be curbed or stopped altogether, by saying no more, each one of us, no more.

No you cannot change people, if they truly don't want to, then it must be our job as a human being, to stop the madnes the insanity and cruelty ourselves, starting today with ourselves, and pray to whoever god you believe in that it works, because we can see from history, more violence does not cut it either.
Change can only come from the individual, simply saying, No more, enough is enough, I think O' sensei said this to terry Dobson, when discussing weight training. No Terry enough is enough, no more.

In Budo

Andy B
Andrew:

That is your idiosyncratic, misinterpretation of what O'Sensei was saying. He was commenting on themisuse of budo, not the neutering of budo. Once again, Kevin's words ring true: "you might have something good, but it ain't budo."

Now back to the donuts and coffee I just stole from the cop who just impounded them from Phi .

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:25 AM   #71
gates
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Andrew,
Just a couple of thoughts to play devils advocate.

Competition drives progress.
The competitive human instinct is a necessary function of our drive to survive.

As a ridiculous example think of captive Panda. They seem to lack a basic drive to get jiggy, so the zoo keepers add mirrors to the enclosure to stir them up a bit.

The thrust of this very thread could be considered as a competition as it 'competes against' an opposing viewpoint, that competition is necessary.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:32 AM   #72
Chris Li
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Andrew,
Just a couple of thoughts to play devils advocate.

Competition drives progress.
The competitive human instinct is a necessary function of our drive to survive.

As a ridiculous example think of captive Panda. They seem to lack a basic drive to get jiggy, so the zoo keepers add mirrors to the enclosure to stir them up a bit.

The thrust of this very thread could be considered as a competition as it 'competes against' an opposing viewpoint, that competition is necessary.
And more - the Founder clearly spoke against competitive matches in Budo.

OTOH, I think it would be more difficult to show that he advocated an extreme bias against any form of competition in all of its senses. Certainly, he had strong ties to the military - and the Aikikai continued those ties into the post-war era.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-01-2012, 09:08 AM   #73
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

And even more difficult would be taking his "let's not make aikido a sport" as "nature is wrong".

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Old 03-01-2012, 09:10 AM   #74
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
A founders vision, this martial art is not for leading the world into destruction by the piling up of weapons, But a way to reconcile the worlds differences, indeed Aikido full fills religion, and can purify the hearts and minds of the aggressor.
Aikido fulfills religion? Which one? How?

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Old 03-01-2012, 09:30 AM   #75
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido fulfills religion? Which one? How?
Which is really a key question that usually goes unasked.

Ueshiba did say, essentially, that Aikido fulfills religion - but defining just what he meant by that is probably more difficult than most people imagine when they toss it out there, and what he did mean is probably a little different than many imagine.

Best,

Chris

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