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Old 03-10-2012, 12:50 AM   #76
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Well, after a bit of experimentation today, I am leaning very strongly towards relaxed and slightly spread rather than the Yoshinkan style fork, or the Nishio style knife.

As for the ki gland, I think gland was the wrong word. A gland is a physical organ which secretes substances (usually hormones) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gland. A point on an acupuncture chart makes more sense.
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Old 03-10-2012, 02:41 AM   #77
sakumeikan
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
yeah, that's me, who else?
Dear Ike,
I take it by your comment that you are confirming you are the gent from Martial Arts Planet? I wondered why I had not seen any of your blogs recently on said M.A.P,forums.I missed your slightly controversial viewpoints/statements on M.A.P.Hope to read some more of your views on this Forum. Hope you are well.
Cheers, Joe,
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Old 03-10-2012, 03:18 AM   #78
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

No, I don't think I'll go there any more, as you say, they 'give me too much stick'.
I hope maybe I can get along here a little better.
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:33 AM   #79
feck
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, i havent had a chance to read the whole thread as im mobile at the moment.

Recently my fingers were bent back by a more advanced person because i offered my hand relaxed and open, my wrist still hurts now. I still believe though that the hand should still be in a relaxed style as this enhances IMHO the connection and feeling of techique/attack from uke. A hand held even in a slightly tensed syle would again IMO would interfere with this crucial feeeling of technique.

I see it like this in a relaxed style when held, you are feeling totally your ukes energy/ki/intention/aggression etc and have only to react as you are already hopefully in a state of relaxed alertness. In a fixed hand position the muscles come into play, this alone is always in some way blocking your feeling perception etc of the attack. Also in a totally relaxed manner you can then immediately energisr or even stiffen your hand which will immefiately change the grip of your uke by having directly affected it.

"Men occasionally stumble across the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
Winston Churchill
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:20 PM   #80
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

o.k., sorry all, about the ki gland, that's the way I was taught it, in either daoism, or esoteric daoism, which is another field. So, I just repeated it, and I was mistaken, sorry again.
But, in spite of that, triple warmer 4 and UB 58 are very imporrtant in the development of Ki.
To o'sensei, ki was everything, and yes, as someone mentioned, ki seems to mean almost nothing in today's aikido, to the point that people are questioning whether o'sensei could actually do all those things you see in the videos.
Well, I might be practically the last guy here that actually practiced with him, and I can tell you that he could do all of those things.
Ki was the most important thing for all aikidoka in those early days. In fact, ki was a part of your test, even for white belts. The instructor wanted to see if your ki was increasing or not.
That part of aikido, which was the most important part of aikido, seems to be lost for now.
I'm no where near that level, but I'm working on techniques to bring the 'ki development' back.
TH3 and UB 58 are certainly a part of it, also, the meeting place of the ki, which is in the middle of the sternum. And, jogging the fossa of the clavical, which is used in esoteric daoism to manipulate time.
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Old 03-10-2012, 07:02 PM   #81
phitruong
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
.
I'm no where near that level, but I'm working on techniques to bring the 'ki development' back.
.
Ike, a suggestion if i may. there is a search function on aikiweb. please try the search on these names:
Mike Sigman
Dan Harden
Akuzawa Minoru
Rob John
Toby Threadgill
Howard Popkin
Ellis Amdur
Kenji Ushiro

or browse through the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" section of the Forums. Please browse through some of those threads.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:32 AM   #82
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

phi, I sure will, thanx, but that's so many names, it'll take me a long time to go through them all.
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:38 AM   #83
phitruong
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
phi, I sure will, thanx, but that's so many names, it'll take me a long time to go through them all.
just the first 2 or 3 would do it. to give an idea or two on what sort of things a number of aikido folks are working with and toward.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:56 AM   #84
Budd
 
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Regarding "gland" or "point", we're dealing with other peoples' translations of Asian concepts so I can allow for wiggle room.

Regarding fingers being open or closed - I think what's been determined is that some of the seniors from previous generations were advocating fingers being open for some very specific purposes around ki/qi and intent training. That should be enough of a lead for those already interested in these things to start to extrapolate some 'hows' and 'whys'.

I'd question some of the fine details as being more "someone's approach" rather than "the only correct interpretation (especially when dealing with translations and second-hand speak), but some of the things that jumped out to me with things like "asagao" and the fingers expressing the body as it opens in all directions. That's rather important in some of the basics of the internal strength paradigm and speaks to a couple things, how the body as a frame can open and close, how the power of the middle can be expressed out the fingers, etc.

But again, I'm thinking less in terms of "should the fingers be open" and more along the lines of "what would the body be doing to open the fingers"?

It's like a finger pointing at the moon . . .

(Phi, haven't you asked anyone to pull your finger, yet?)
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:46 AM   #85
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

There is a photo in Ellis Amdur's book "hidden in plain sight" where Tomiki Kenji's Uke has his fingers spread while recieving a pin. I believe Tomiki was demonstrating for Ueshiba.The spread fingers should be apparent in both "roles", IMO.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:48 AM   #86
phitruong
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post

(Phi, haven't you asked anyone to pull your finger, yet?)
Budd, ssshhhhhhhhhh .... stop telling folks my ultra-secret technique. folks don't know that my secret identity is the Spleen. i would like to keep it that way. it's very important to my survival.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:15 AM   #87
JimClark
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
As I remember, Shioda sensei in his book "Mastering AIkido" mentions to open up the fingers strongly in the opening pages of the book, part of kamae.
Check out this video of a yoshinkan practitioner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEO8h...e_gdata_player

He starts with fingers spread wide while addressing uke. As soon as the waza starts, I only saw his fingers spread once, at the end of an iriminage/tenchinage, actually twice the other in a swariwaza grab. I have no idea whether this is intentional on his part or not, but he is clearly only taking the spread finger direction of Shioda Sensei in a static setup pose, not during execution of technique. (I don't think you can say Joe Thambu Shihan's aikido is weak or ineffective IMO). So once again why?

Regards,

Jim

Learn to see everything accurately. Do not do anything useless. -Miyamoto Musashi, The Earth Scroll, The Book of Five Rings.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:56 AM   #88
chillzATL
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Jim Clark wrote: View Post
Check out this video of a yoshinkan practitioner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEO8h...e_gdata_player

He starts with fingers spread wide while addressing uke. As soon as the waza starts, I only saw his fingers spread once, at the end of an iriminage/tenchinage, actually twice the other in a swariwaza grab. I have no idea whether this is intentional on his part or not, but he is clearly only taking the spread finger direction of Shioda Sensei in a static setup pose, not during execution of technique. (I don't think you can say Joe Thambu Shihan's aikido is weak or ineffective IMO). So once again why?

Regards,

Jim
As discussed elsewhere on the site the last few days, Shioda sensei also said that their kamae was not to be considered a fighting stance, but was used to instill the center line. I take that to mean their kamae is used to impart a certain physical quality to the body that he feels is not only important, but one that will not be found otherwise. I recall reading that his kamae was not stressed this way in the early days of the Yoshinkan and they made that change because it clearly found something lacking in his students.

Go watch some videos of how they do things and give it a try yoruself, see if you feel anything. Obviously one cannot practice with the hands like that at all times, but IMO, the point is that with the proper kind of practice, you eventually don't need to do that to maintain that same quality in your body. FWIW.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:01 AM   #89
gregstec
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Jim Clark wrote: View Post
Check out this video of a yoshinkan practitioner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEO8h...e_gdata_player

He starts with fingers spread wide while addressing uke. As soon as the waza starts, I only saw his fingers spread once, at the end of an iriminage/tenchinage, actually twice the other in a swariwaza grab. I have no idea whether this is intentional on his part or not, but he is clearly only taking the spread finger direction of Shioda Sensei in a static setup pose, not during execution of technique. (I don't think you can say Joe Thambu Shihan's aikido is weak or ineffective IMO). So once again why?

Regards,

Jim
Well, here is a video of a higher ranking Yoshinkan guy and it is pretty obvious throughout his entire engagement with uke he has his fingers spread. I am not a fan of the stiff Yoshikan style, but I understand Inoue's use of the fingers in his application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wm5J...6&feature=plcp

Greg
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:41 PM   #90
kfa4303
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

I have no clue personally , but it's interesting that we've been discussing similar issues in the dojo recently. From my Karate/Kempo days we were always taught to keep the hands closed, thumb tucked and it worked very well for striking, blocking, etc...However, based on purely anecdotal evidence, I seem to move better with a more open hand in Aikido. I think it helps to keep students from becoming too "grabby", or "choppy" too. I've noticed that Saotome Sensei, with whom my dojo is most directly affiliated, seems to use what I'll call a "hybrid hand" that's more, or less open with the middle, ring and pink fingers held somewhat more closely together while the index finger and thumb are somewhat spread apart from the rest. I'm not sure if it's conscious, or more incidental, but it is interesting and certainly seems to work.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:19 PM   #91
DH
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

I guess that if both Shioda and Chiba used that phrase the only conclusion must be that it came from O-Sensei!

I find if I let my fingers open when drinking a pint I just tend to waste beer...

Alex
Asagao or morning glory hand , didn't...come....from " Osensei" it came from Takeda " Dai sensei"


The idea is not to have the fingers spread spuriously or arbitrarily. There are specific things to do with intent and reasons for them none of which has anything to do with:
Tension
Flexion
Extendors and retractors
Kokyu...ki...intent... are sounding more like buzzwords in the mouths of budoka than actual useful tools.
It's too bad teachers can't get their collective shit together and talk plainly and in a beneficial manner on the occasions when they actually posses useful information. It would at least help people differentiate between B.S. and helpful advice.
The former being far more prevalent than the later.

The training model has nothing to do with the hand shapes anyway. It's what is happening in the body. Once we know " what" to work, we become more free to understand what must be retained and what can be let go of. When I spar my hands are free to do whatever is appropriate: grabbing, punching, leading and hitting again without loss.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-19-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:20 PM   #92
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
I have no clue personally I've noticed that Saotome Sensei, with whom my dojo is most directly affiliated, seems to use what I'll call a "hybrid hand" that's more, or less open with the middle, ring and pink fingers held somewhat more closely together while the index finger and thumb are somewhat spread apart from the rest. I'm not sure if it's conscious, or more incidental, but it is interesting and certainly seems to work.
The key thing about Sensei's hands are how "alive" they are. It's not about some special way to hold them but while relaxed, they are energized. Many folks, in an attempt to be relaxed, lose this and have what I call dead hands. You can see when they are about to get grabbed, their fingers are curled lifeless... I think styles that have exaggerated finger splaying were merely trying to condition folks to avoid this. Saotome Sensei's emphasis has always been on feeling "natural". the way his hands appear is a direct result of that being how they are when they are relaxed but active, as if he were playing an instrument. For him sensitivity is crucial and tension is as bad as being too relaxed and de-energized.

George S. Ledyard
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Aikido Eastside
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:24 AM   #93
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post

8/28/1971
I was told by Takeda Sensei to open my hand in the way that a Morning Glory ("Asagao") blooms, but I think that this means to open the hand while rotating slightly. I conceived of my Aiki while thinking about this kind of thing.


Best,

Chris
Interesting regarding the rotation.

Thanks

Carl
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