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Old 02-27-2012, 11:40 AM   #76
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Ok Dan, I m done. I sincerely appologise if that was not inteded towards me. It was maybe the way I took it.
I simply put out there my thoughts, there was not any real need for crticism, just your thoughts and oppinions on the conlcusions I have drawn.

If you wish I would be interested in hearing your views, on the five points I made concerning the competativeness vs non-competativeness, which you have not done as far as I can see. only your right and O`sensei would agree with you. Now come on, surely you can see how mad that sounds?

Each point I made runs into the other, and I have tried to convey them in a logical order. From the outset, I wanted thoughts on the mindset that each teaches and the merrits for and against to each approach, and hopefully draw a conclusions from that. And hoping that somewhere along the line we can all move forward toward to a harmonious way of life, free of the contending mind.

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:42 AM   #77
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Nick Regnier wrote: View Post
Oh ok Demetrio,

Do you practice a different Aikido now? (sorry for all folks if we are moving away from the debate)
Currently I practise Judo (when work schedule permits). Regarding Aikido, well, I left because there are prices I'm not going to pay, so let's say "politics".

Regards.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:43 AM   #78
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Nick Regnier wrote: View Post
Dear Andy,

You are welcome. These topics are bound to bring various challenges and opinions and you are so right about raising the issue about being able to break the cycle: avoiding hurting one another because we do not agree. It is sad to know that in this world of today very few things have changed. If only everyone could understand the art of Peace... then there would be truly peace and respect.
It has been a pleasure sharing your views.

Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon
You are most welcome. If you are ever in the sussex area, send me a PM, and maybe we could get together to discuss and maybe do some training together. I applaud you on your openess.

Thank you,

Andy B
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:45 AM   #79
nickregnier1
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Oh I see. Sorry to hear that the price was the reason to change discipline. But I can see that your heart is still with Aikido (right?) as you are logged in in this forum...

Nick

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Old 02-27-2012, 11:47 AM   #80
nickregnier1
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
You are most welcome. If you are ever in the sussex area, send me a PM, and maybe we could get together to discuss and maybe do some training together. I applaud you on your openess.

Thank you,

Andy B
Sure Andy,

Continue doing what your heart tells you! That is how i pursue my Aikido journey. Most definitely, if I am around your area, I will let you know (the same goes for you! if you are in Harrow - North London let me know)
Take care.

Nick
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:58 AM   #81
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Quote:
Nick Regnier wrote: View Post
Sure Andy,

Continue doing what your heart tells you! That is how i pursue my Aikido journey. Most definitely, if I am around your area, I will let you know (the same goes for you! if you are in Harrow - North London let me know)
Take care.

Nick
Thank you, I`m going to check your website out in a while when I get bak from my lunch break.
And I am honoured by your invite.

In Budo/Peace

Andy B
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:59 AM   #82
Garth
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

"To mr Gregory Gargiso, I dont beleive the competative mind is a model and again I repeat the madness of can be seen by reading a history book. One example, of recent events, of the burning of the quran pages in afganistan this week, because somebody may have burned a few pages from a spiritual text the go out and murder other human beings. That my friend is non other than the compettive religious mind, and it is madness. No different to what happened leading up to the disastrous events of world war 2, and nobody I know would call that sane!"

Andrew,
I believe that is fanaticism.
From Wiki pedia
"Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal"

Curious as to why they put that word uncritical in there? Critics and competition have there place, so as to check the zeal . To check extreme beliefs.
Competition tends to check unrealistic beliefs. Some people are fanatical in their belief that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, because they are without any checks to their zeal. Not bashing, just keeping it real.
Are they mutually exclusive? Dont know , dont care. But they do exist and I would love to be above the fray and or train that way and it maybe a goal of mind/mine.
But there are people who COMPETE for hearts and minds , lame as that has been made to sound.
And then there are fanatic kooks, who wont accept any other definition of how to live.
But there is a difference, both exist and when contemplated helps a person choose exactly where he wants to stand

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:29 PM   #83
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Dear nick,
I see we are of the same lineage, and that makes a world of sense
On march 11th, one year to the day of the Japanses Tsunami, I will be in london, partaking in a demo along with the dojo cho of the dojo I belong too, for the relief of the orphans of the march 11th tsunami.
I will PM you the details, it is set up by the Japanese embassy here in the UK, the Japanese and british respective ambassadors will be there supporting this important event.

Andy B
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:41 PM   #84
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
"To mr Gregory Gargiso, I dont beleive the competative mind is a model and again I repeat the madness of can be seen by reading a history book. One example, of recent events, of the burning of the quran pages in afganistan this week, because somebody may have burned a few pages from a spiritual text the go out and murder other human beings. That my friend is non other than the compettive religious mind, and it is madness. No different to what happened leading up to the disastrous events of world war 2, and nobody I know would call that sane!"

Andrew,
I believe that is fanaticism.
From Wiki pedia
"Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal"

Curious as to why they put that word uncritical in there? Critics and competition have there place, so as to check the zeal . To check extreme beliefs.
Competition tends to check unrealistic beliefs. Some people are fanatical in their belief that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, because they are without any checks to their zeal. Not bashing, just keeping it real.
Are they mutually exclusive? Dont know , dont care. But they do exist and I would love to be above the fray and or train that way and it maybe a goal of mind/mine.
But there are people who COMPETE for hearts and minds , lame as that has been made to sound.
And then there are fanatic kooks, who wont accept any other definition of how to live.
But there is a difference, both exist and when contemplated helps a person choose exactly where he wants to stand
Agreed, I simply put the differences as I see them. In my original Post, I did not say either one was better or worse, Indeed I have said elsewhere in this thread that competition does indeed have its place. Again I say, I am bringing to question how we move forward, so the competative mind no matter what form it takes, is kept in check and must be brought into awareness for what it is, in all forms it takes so it no longer destroys us/humanity from the inside, to shine the light of consiousness of the insanity of the contentious/competative mind when left unchecked. more competition will not bring about this change, in my Honest Humble Opinion, I dont have the answer, but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes.

Andy B
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:57 PM   #85
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Concur,
except for "but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes."

This current trend for no winners and losers is just a little disturbing and a crackpot scheme dreamt up by most likely communists.(not saying you, just where it most likely came from)
Am I to assume , that a person who does nothing with his God given talents is on the same level as the person who worked their whole life striving to be better with those talents?
This is feel good mentality, and is ruining everything from Aikido, to our school system, to our country and others.
When I have competed (maybe just in my mind or within or with oneself) at anything and done well, it does not spur me to want more. There is peace at that moment even if brief. A stop and smell the roses moment.
Had I not done so, I would not know the difference between cutting someone's head off for their religious beliefs and beating someone at a game or to the punch.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:08 PM   #86
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Concur,
except for "but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes."

This current trend for no winners and losers is just a little disturbing and a crackpot scheme dreamt up by most likely communists.(not saying you, just where it most likely came from)
Am I to assume , that a person who does nothing with his God given talents is on the same level as the person who worked their whole life striving to be better with those talents?
This is feel good mentality, and is ruining everything from Aikido, to our school system, to our country and others.
When I have competed (maybe just in my mind or within or with oneself) at anything and done well, it does not spur me to want more. There is peace at that moment even if brief. A stop and smell the roses moment.
Had I not done so, I would not know the difference between cutting someone's head off for their religious beliefs and beating someone at a game or to the punch.
Hi Greg, exactly, but when I said more competition begets more competition, makes sense, it is indeed very sientific. It`s the positive feedback theory, only in this case I am leaning on the fence of it being in the negative, because we can all surely see the negativity that is also endemic in society, and for what it is worth, I believe this to be competition running rife and having a good old time with the collective human psyche. I think we have at least reached a kind of understanding.

Andy B
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:18 PM   #87
Marc Abrams
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Agreed, I simply put the differences as I see them. In my original Post, I did not say either one was better or worse, Indeed I have said elsewhere in this thread that competition does indeed have its place. Again I say, I am bringing to question how we move forward, so the competative mind no matter what form it takes, is kept in check and must be brought into awareness for what it is, in all forms it takes so it no longer destroys us/humanity from the inside, to shine the light of consiousness of the insanity of the contentious/competative mind when left unchecked. more competition will not bring about this change, in my Honest Humble Opinion, I dont have the answer, but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes.

Andy B
Andy:

I would suggest that you look at the growing field of evolutionary psychology. Simply start off with exploring the concept of evolution. Flora, animals, etc. all engage is a competitive process. The planet exists in a dynamic equilibrium centered around competition. Eliminating the "competitive mindset" from our consciousness goes against the very nature of how our planet exists. Maybe you might find a more fruitful endeavor in exploring what is it about humans that have taken this natural process and led us (as some may believe) to the brink of our own demise.

Your opinion sounds good in theory, but works against the very order of nature that we exist within. We can no more take the tendency toward competition in us away any more than we can take it away from anything else for that matter. (you name the flora or animal). Instead of trying to create a new "operating system" for us, or anything else for that matter, why don't you look harder and deeper and find some way for us to take a natural process and allow it to exist in dynamic balance with the rest of nature.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:40 PM   #88
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Andy:

I would suggest that you look at the growing field of evolutionary psychology. Simply start off with exploring the concept of evolution. Flora, animals, etc. all engage is a competitive process. The planet exists in a dynamic equilibrium centered around competition. Eliminating the "competitive mindset" from our consciousness goes against the very nature of how our planet exists. Maybe you might find a more fruitful endeavor in exploring what is it about humans that have taken this natural process and led us (as some may believe) to the brink of our own demise.

Your opinion sounds good in theory, but works against the very order of nature that we exist within. We can no more take the tendency toward competition in us away any more than we can take it away from anything else for that matter. (you name the flora or animal). Instead of trying to create a new "operating system" for us, or anything else for that matter, why don't you look harder and deeper and find some way for us to take a natural process and allow it to exist in dynamic balance with the rest of nature.

Marc Abrams
Sorry marc I completely disagree, your talking about natural selection, not the contentious contending self seeking mind in all that is me/ I and mine. Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation. Competition Rules, and anyone that says different is either all airy fairy or living in a dream world. and so you attack them for it, in some form or another.

And in all fairness new theories abound about the mind, is just another thought form and does not address the heart of the matter.

Andy
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #89
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation.
This, people, is what good ole fashioned trolling looks like. Though he did a better job than most as making it sound eloquent.

Last edited by chillzATL : 02-27-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:20 PM   #90
Marc Abrams
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Sorry marc I completely disagree, your talking about natural selection, not the contentious contending self seeking mind in all that is me/ I and mine. Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation. Competition Rules, and anyone that says different is either all airy fairy or living in a dream world. and so you attack them for it, in some form or another.

And in all fairness new theories abound about the mind, is just another thought form and does not address the heart of the matter.

Andy
Andrew:

Natural selection is a process of competition over resources. The "contentious, contending, self-seeking mind...." is simply one cognitive manifestation of natural selection being expressed through our cognition. It has nothing to do with my mindset, the US mindset, or any other mind set for that matter. You appear to be taking it out of context and looking at "competition" in a vacuum and placing your own idiosyncratic perspective upon it. The larger reality is that human cognition is a unique function of the human condition that exists within the world at large. You can no more separate cognition from this gestalt than you can separate the mind from the body.

I am not quite sure what "new theories" you are referring to about the mind. Your comment about "just another though form and does not address the heart of the matter" is logically inconsistent with your premise regarding a "competitive mindset." Nice sounding ideas that don't exist within the functional reality of how life operates on this planet does not really lead to much in terms of advancing our thoughts on some genuine world problems that you might be alluding to.

A more fruitful discussion may be found in exploring how humans manifest "natural selection" in "mindsets", and how those "mindsets" lead to various outcomes.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:22 PM   #91
hughrbeyer
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

"Human nature, Mr. Allnutt, is what we are placed on Earth to rise above." -Rose Sayer, The African Queen.

The problem I have with your argument, Marc, is that there are all sorts of aspects of human nature which really shouldn't be encouraged. Is the competitive drive one of those? Why not?

My problem with your argument, Andrew, is that you assume competition is all kinds of things ("the contentious self-seeking mind" that it doesn't have to be. In fact, the "self-seeking mind" does a whole lot better when it cuts itself off from any external reality check--then it can focus wholly on its own wonderfulness. The good aspect of engaging in competition, or any kind of outward-facing activity, is that it forces the self-seeking mind to recognize and adjust to something outside itself.

"To know thyself is the beginning of wisdom"--but where do we find a mirror to see ourselves in? Only in something outside ourselves that will show us how we look, warts and all.

(P.S. to Andrew--Have you not read Dan H's other posts? Your characterization of his attitude ("I'm right and O-Sensei would agree with me") is a vast simplification of his point of view--but it's correct in essentials. But understand, he's convinced a bunch of very high-level aikidoka that he does have important skills that O-Sensei had and talked about. I'd be among them if I were high-level enough. PM me if you want a quick history of the discussions, not because there's any secret, but to keep from hijacking yet another thread.)
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:26 PM   #92
grondahl
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Since i heard (read) evolutionary psychology. A collection of lectures from a course in Human Behavioral Biology on Stanford. Good stuff, very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIG...8F2368C90DDC3D
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:26 PM   #93
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Andy:

I would suggest that you look at the growing field of evolutionary psychology. Simply start off with exploring the concept of evolution. Flora, animals, etc. all engage is a competitive process. The planet exists in a dynamic equilibrium centered around competition. Eliminating the "competitive mindset" from our consciousness goes against the very nature of how our planet exists. Maybe you might find a more fruitful endeavor in exploring what is it about humans that have taken this natural process and led us (as some may believe) to the brink of our own demise.

Your opinion sounds good in theory, but works against the very order of nature that we exist within. We can no more take the tendency toward competition in us away any more than we can take it away from anything else for that matter. (you name the flora or animal). Instead of trying to create a new "operating system" for us, or anything else for that matter, why don't you look harder and deeper and find some way for us to take a natural process and allow it to exist in dynamic balance with the rest of nature.

Marc Abrams
Your post immediately brought to mind something that happened just yesterday and fits with what you said above, at least in the context of the discussion.

A friend brought his 11mo black lab mix to play with our 3mo shiba inu pup this past weekend. A non-dog person or someone who isn't comfortable letting dogs be dogs would have thought they were trying to kill each other. The larger dog constantly running my shiba pup down, pinning her to the ground with his paws and chin, barreling over her at full speed and my shiba jumping full force into the dogs head, bitting ears and lips, anything she could get hold of. It looked and sounded like a brutal dog fight, but in reality it was nothing more than play and competition. Not competition to establish a winner or a loser, but competition for growth and to establish limits, what they can and can't do. It was perfectly friendly and more importantly, perfectly healthy for both dogs. They would take breaks, sit togehter, explore together and them, bam, dog chaos again, but they parted on perfectly friendly terms with both us and the dogs better for it. That's healthy dog behavior, dogs being dogs. The key word there being healthy. Dogs that, usually from human input in some way, are either violently aggressive or hyper-timid in those situations are not considered healthy minded dogs. It is the process of engaging in that competition that creates healthy minded dogs and it's usually us that screws it up for them in the same way that we screw it up for ourselves, ego, insecurity, jealousy, fear, etc...
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:31 PM   #94
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

"that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation"

Andy,
STRONGLY DISAGREE.
This nation and its collective mindset, I do not remember, did we force Britain after WWII or Iraq after the current war to fly our flag. Or assert or cast them off that they (the British and Iraqis) somehow are lesser ...airy fairies because they could not or would not compete against aggression, dominance, dictatorship, etc.
What was that guy's name ? Neville Chamberlain, now there was an airy fairy with his head in the sand and he probably cost a lot of people their lives by delaying the inevitable.
But history lesson and shots across this nation's bow aside. Letting go of ego is one thing, living with your head in the sand completely different.
In other words, you can train with out any competition or thoughts there of your whole life. Finding out that that you have not been doing it right (again personal or with in oneself/ ) is quite a shock and is either appeasement , rationalization and gets you most likely hurt or dead.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:43 PM   #95
Marc Abrams
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
The problem I have with your argument, Marc, is that there are all sorts of aspects of human nature which really shouldn't be encouraged. Is the competitive drive one of those? Why not?
Such as?

Your statement is overly global. How do certain aspects of "human nature" manifest themselves? And, what are the conditions in which they exist are important to be able to delineate? Without delineation, we are talking so globally,that we can provide no useful responses in order to shape thoughts and behaviors so that they are more functionally effective in the environments in which they are being expressed.

Regards,

marc abrams
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:45 PM   #96
Garth
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

. The key word there being healthy. Dogs that, usually from human input in some way, are either violently aggressive or hyper-timid in those situations are not considered healthy minded dogs. It is the process of engaging in that competition that creates healthy minded dogs and it's usually us that screws it up for them in the same way that we screw it up for ourselves, ego, insecurity, jealousy, fear, etc...

Good good, one caveat, since we are on dogs , how do we explain wolves in Yellowstone that kill elk after elk and do not eat them? See yellowstone wolves if disbelieving.
Are they hyperaggressive? Or is it biological in nature.
Probably a stretch here tho, since we are human and despite what some people believe have bigger brains
So, dogs in a pack suffer all those things you say and not because of us, but we are supposed to be a higher consciousness, and therefore can become enlightened as I think Andy is trying to point out.
Then this all becomes a walk before run arguement. And really how are we supposed to know running if never having walked. Never know enlightment , without something to compare it against or compete against.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:46 PM   #97
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Is what me? not sure of your question.
I am simply bringing into question the princples that we teach in different arts and how they get played out on the collective world stage.

Not a question of right or wrong but a simple statement of what is, and how we go about bringing real change in the medium of martial arts. Competative or non competative, I am simply brining to attention, the insanity of the collective competative mind, because this is even more insane than the individualised state of the contentious mind.

Now we could say that this should be taught in schools at home, or whatever, it just so happens I teach a martial art, in a very respected dojo, who`s dojo Cho Is an official representative, Daihyo of the Dai nippon Butokukai. tenshinkan Dojo Uk. And I was wondering how we bring about real change through Budo!

Andy B

P.s
Sorry to all of my spelling mistakes.
I'd love to have an intelligent and constructive conversation of the subject, but really need to frame what you want to discuss.

Your first sentence in the post states "I am simply bringing into question the princples that we teach in different arts and how they get played out on the collective world stage."

So based on this it sounds like you are wanting to discuss how different arts can contribute to creating a productive society or something. I am game to discuss that...but not really sure what you mean by "how they get played out on the collective world stage". What does that mean? Martial Arts can build character and "men" (non-gender). It can also build communities of people that work and bond together. It can also produce out reach to others. Again, not sure what it means in getting played out of the collective world stage. I think that concept might be a little to macroscopic, vaque, and lack the preciseness necessary to have a constructive conversation.

Your next paragraph or statement says "simple statement of what is, and how we go about bringing real change in the medium of martial arts." By this I now think ou want to discuss how we bring change to martial arts as a whole. Again, what are the problems as you see it that martial arts have that need to be changed. Then maybe we could also discuss that topic as well.

In the same para/statement you say "I am simply brining to attention, the insanity of the collective competative mind, because this is even more insane than the individualised state of the contentious mind."

Sorry, but I don't understand. what is the insanity? wHat is a collective competitive mind? What makes it "more insane" than the individual state of the contentious mind? AND what is the individual state of the contentious mind. I am really not sure what you mean by that.

Last paragraph proposes that we discuss how we bring about "real change in budo". How does this differ from you bring change in martial arts as previously proposed? Is budo in your opinion the same as martilal arts?

If you want to discuss bringing real change in budo, again, what are the problems as you see them in budo and what changes do you propose are made?

Again, I'd love to participate in the conversation, but not sure what is really being discussed.

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Old 02-27-2012, 02:57 PM   #98
hughrbeyer
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

Marc -- Having just finished "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Stephen Pinker, highly recommended, I am over-supplied with examples... but let's just choose one close to the topic.

The honor/shame retributive mindset is apparently built in--it's just about universal in traditional societies and still exists in modern societies. But overcoming this mindset--which was one important result of the Enlightenment--is critical to reducing violence and creating the kind of stable societies we have these days. (And if you don't think we do, read the book.)

That answers your question,but doesn't really address your argument. If you're going to promote competition on the grounds that people are competitive, you need to show that either (1) it's harmless so why not; or (2) it's not harmless but it's worth it because the world is a dangerous place or (3) it's an active good for some reason. You can't just say it's human nature, so that settles it.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:59 PM   #99
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
. The key word there being healthy. Dogs that, usually from human input in some way, are either violently aggressive or hyper-timid in those situations are not considered healthy minded dogs. It is the process of engaging in that competition that creates healthy minded dogs and it's usually us that screws it up for them in the same way that we screw it up for ourselves, ego, insecurity, jealousy, fear, etc...

Good good, one caveat, since we are on dogs , how do we explain wolves in Yellowstone that kill elk after elk and do not eat them? See yellowstone wolves if disbelieving.
Are they hyperaggressive? Or is it biological in nature.
Probably a stretch here tho, since we are human and despite what some people believe have bigger brains
So, dogs in a pack suffer all those things you say and not because of us, but we are supposed to be a higher consciousness, and therefore can become enlightened as I think Andy is trying to point out.
Then this all becomes a walk before run arguement. And really how are we supposed to know running if never having walked. Never know enlightment , without something to compare it against or compete against.
Well, they are territorial and elk are both outside their species and outside their pack. That's just a guess though.

I also got the point he was trying to make about enlightenment and I'm just not sure I agree with it. If one is seeking enlightenment via budo, shouldn't you have to actually experience budo to get it? If part of enlightenment is letting go of ego, isn't it easier to have your ego put to the test a few times to see how it responds than to avoid having it tested only to see it fail you?

Last edited by chillzATL : 02-27-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:18 PM   #100
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Sorry marc I completely disagree, your talking about natural selection, not the contentious contending self seeking mind in all that is me/ I and mine. Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation. Competition Rules, and anyone that says different is either all airy fairy or living in a dream world. and so you attack them for it, in some form or another.

And in all fairness new theories abound about the mind, is just another thought form and does not address the heart of the matter.

Andy
Well I personally take offense to the categorization of the collective mindset of your Nation, meaning the United States as a U.S. citizen. Thanks for the insensitive and unqualified judgement and insult!

That aside, I believe that Westbrook and Ratti addressed four possible outcomes to conflict in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere". Win/Lose, Win/Win, Lose/Win, and Lose/Lose.

I think most of us agree that in practice Win/Win is optimal and what we strive for in all our relationships. Maybe this is where you are going with your discussion, albeit IMO in a very confusing manner.

Since you brought up the U.S and really all Democratic, Free Enterprise economies to include the UK....lets discuss competition in those terms.

In Free Enterprise, competition must exist in order to have a self determining economy at the most simplistic level of the concept. We establish rules to promote fairness, albeit we all know that there are problems there too. Setting those aside, you can have a competitive model of enterprise that is, at least in theory, competitive as defined by businesses competing for your business. The Best product, price, etc will win. Within the exchange of goods and services, money and goods change hands and creates a "Win/Win" situation.

I was in three third world countries last week in Africa and watch with amazement at people competing for business on a very real and foundational level on the street corners. Many would not eat if they did not sell something that day. While they were agressive at hawking to me, they did not assault me, hurt each other, and I noticed that while competing, as you drove down the road, that many of the businesses that sold competing goods where grouped together in the same general area. Guys selling Colas tended to be in the same area, same with guys that did furniture.

Why is this? it is because there is a benefit work together, while at the same time competing for business.

To get back on the Martial track. Martial Strategies/Training or Budo must address all aspects that Westbrook and Ratti define. In Budo we must learn/teach not only to win/win...but to win/lose, lose/win, and lose/lose.

the concept of "Dying Well" in battle is as an important lesson to learn as any. also the concept of Winning. Studying history such as how MacArthur worked to restore respect and dignity to Japan after we defeated the Japanese is just as important as any.

I agree we need to strive towards win/win...it is what I do everyday. However, you must also realize that in reality, not every one will get a Trophy in the real world....and we must prepare ourselves and our Children to deal with that fact.

IMO, THIS is what budo is designed to teach. The full spectrum of possibilities, not some one dimensional utopic view of what we'd really like to see in the world.

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