Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-06-2012, 03:50 PM   #51
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 658
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

I'd understood ma-ai to mean 'proper distance' moreso than 'safe distance'.. i.e., ma-ai to deliver a blow is different from ma-ai to avoid a blow. Ma-ai with swords is different from that with tanto. Ma-ai for iriminage is VERY close to uke. Ma-ai for kotegaeshi is farther away... But gaijin desu and I don't speak Nihongo so good...

An example - a friend of mine described a ma-ai exercise with swords - cutting apples in half from a quick draw in seiza - with the apple held between the chin and the sternum... Ya gotta know your distance for that one or it's your last practice - ever.
W

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 02-06-2012 at 03:54 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:14 PM   #52
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.
Having seen all the various reactions on here to 'martial' I don't think that term has any fixed meaning among martial artists by the look of it. So what do I say?

Aikido is a martial art. I think everyone in the world would agree give or take.

I do Aikido so obviously yes. As to others opinions as to how martial then I leave them with their opinions. C'est la vie.

Transcending martial? Now there is a new comment I've never seen but I think I know where you are coming from by saying it.

Many labels are extant in the annuls of martial arts to do with spiritual levels of all kinds so that tends to rule out transcending martial from that perspective. Take shimmejutsu etc.

Transcending fixed views or fixed ways due to different realizations and thus ways of doing then partly yes.

It's an interesting word.

I merely say what I do, what my views are, what I find, actually the views I share with others of my acquaintance.

I don't think in terms of transcending but using that word in retrospect then all I can say is that from a self developement point of view for me and others we have transcended many old fixed views and conditions so that's true. As far as Aikido goes in action then we have done the same over the years and transcended many fixed views and fixed ways of doing Aikido too so from that perspective yes too.

As far as the spiritual side goes I do and have contested that the understanding of that side helps exponentially in the understanding and doing of it. Nothing new there from me.

As far as me personally then I have outlined my past briefly, I have thus developed my own style of Aikido and those who have done it loved it, found it useful in both personal, life and 'martial' situations.

For me that's all I needed to know. For me that's all I need to know. Then as in life or rather on anyones path a new phenomenon comes along.

Suddenly there are people in a 'computer world' who say they don't know what I'm talking about or telling me what I am talking about, experts on me and my Aikido or else wondering all kinds of things about it. A new, strange phenomenon. As with virtually everything in life for me whether good or bad I find it interesting and that's the only word I can use.

Either way along this little path or project of communicating on a forum I was sure I would find out more about the scene worldwide and more importantly more about myself. The more about myself is one of the main reasons I am still on here actually.

I have one confession to make actually which only happened last week. An epiphany if you like. The students at Aikido were crowded around me with interest as to this latest 'thing' as they are all well aware of Aikiweb and read it often but don't join.

I realized that this 'outside world of Aikido' was there, wanting something from me, but hadn't got a clue why. I'm telling you that's what happened and it hit me like a bolt out of the blue, I didn't know why.

On describing this to the others and the feelings that came with it some of them burst out laughing and I was the only one not getting the joke. So I couldn't help but laugh with them.

I'll tell you at one point during this realization or realization part 1 so to speak my body had started shaking for no apparent reason. Wow. this was interesting and I sat down and went into meditation mode to face what this phenomenon was. The trigger was Aikiweb for some reason. The strong feeling I found myself facing I finally recognised as fear. I did with it what I do in Aikido really, I joined it. There it was like it was looking at me and I was looking at it, that's the only way I can describe it. I joined it in order to see what it was about. As it cleared found out and yet still it didn't quite make sense to me. They want me to show them something and I don't know why was the realization. Followed by what the hell did fear have to do with it.

This definitely gave me something to contemplate and as it cleared more and more all yhe significance fell away and a shiny simplicity took its place. Wow, that was good I thought.

The simplicity was that that big organizational world of Aikido, the one my teacher wanted nothing to do with, the one I wanted nothing to do with was asking me to have something to do with.

It was like a massive shift had happened I didn't understand fully yet felt exceptionally good.

Nothing logical fitted with regards to the fear factor as my mind went over all the incidents and people and weapons and crazy near death experiences I'd been through in the past and handled with Aikido without any such fear. I'd met many who said they were such and such a dan and well too many to mention and never had a problem so this didn't add up.

Thus my students and son and brother in law were laughing. They proceede to try to get me to recognise that last little bit that I appeared not to be seeing. My final piece came through listening to my son. He said he recognised the type of feeling I was describing and said it reminded him of when he first played saxaphone to a massive audience at the royal opera house. That hit home and he said he wished he had a camera with him at that moment. He explained how he had been playing for so many years, everyone knew and heard him, he played at parties and clubs and pubs but that was different, the same different that didn't make sense to me now.

So once again I learned something about myself I was unaware of.

To them, knowing me it made perfect sense. They proceeded to tell me how it's not me to want any big stage, hobnobbing with any 'stars' or people of 'rep' or performing of any kind. It's so not you was their conclusion and that's why they were laughing, because they could see how that would be my button.

Give me a lion to fight, it's much easier. Anyway, we had a good nights training and I even had them doing drills blindfold. All good fun.

So Keith, there's an insight into where I am coming from.

So now, having seen and confronted that button I know only that I will meet different people from this 'outside' world of Aikiweb Aikido and thus it will lead to something on my path. Who knows what. All I know is I will enjoy the moment as usual. I will be myself and still prefer to be the silent center making sure everyone else improves and has a good time.

That's all. I think ha, ha.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 04:25 AM   #53
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.
Oh, because of the word transcend then I must add this.

I believe Ueshibas Aikido transcended that internal stuff. I believe the principles of what I do transcend, go beyond that too.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 06:08 AM   #54
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Oh, because of the word transcend then I must add this.

I believe Ueshibas Aikido transcended that internal stuff. I believe the principles of what I do transcend, go beyond that too.

Regards.G.
FYI
The common understanding of transcending something implies you have a complete and absolute understanding of it.

I am not sure that is what you mean? Unless this is a deliberate attempt to rub people up the wrong way. I am not sure you intend to do this either?
Respectfully,
Keith

Enjoy the journey
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 06:48 AM   #55
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
FYI
The common understanding of transcending something implies you have a complete and absolute understanding of it.

I am not sure that is what you mean? Unless this is a deliberate attempt to rub people up the wrong way. I am not sure you intend to do this either?
Respectfully,
Keith
With regard to Ueshiba then I mean transcended. Your definition is limited above. Complete understanding could be knowing. Transcending implies understanding and going beyond.

The fact some people are 'rubbed up the wrong way' by such comments lies with them, not me. In all spiritual disciplines from yoga, to zen to whatever it is a word that rubs no one up the wrong way.

The spiritual is the core of Aikido, it transcends the physical, full stop.

I apply spiritual principles, quite well actually, and these transcend the usual physical ways.

I am sure others to various extents do too but you will find those that do understand there is no fighting or 'combat' involved. They understand better what Ueshiba meant when he said such things.

Different understanding.

I have said before that an attack is actually not aikido so the person attacking is doing so just so that you can practice Aikido. Attacks are merely part of the practice and yet low and behold the attacker can also learn at the same time. This also fits with statements by Ueshiba which you either understand one way or understand another. I understand that statement of there are no attacks in Aikido. It's not a 'logical' statement, it's a spiritual one. You can call it a philosophical one if you like, in fact you can call it whatever you like, but do you understand it? That's all.

Should you understand it? Maybe, maybe not. I do. There is no more significance to it than that.

Should you agree with me? No. There is no should involved in my communication.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 08:02 AM   #56
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Well, I get where you're coming from, or at least I think I do. I don't see it at all... Best of luck.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 08:56 AM   #57
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,916
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Why not? Your short sharp responses are rather unique I find. You must like it too.

Unique or sheep? Mmmmm. To me every single person in the world is unique, I like their uniqueness.
Sheep look the same to people who don't know, but they are unique too.

On the other side, sometimes people who considers themselves "unique" are totally mainstream but they don't want to see it. Like "rebellious" teens all dressed the same, listening to the same music, same mannierisms...

IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 09:02 AM   #58
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?
Actually we're already back to the 80s. The 70's are so last year.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 09:45 AM   #59
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sheep look the same to people who don't know, but they are unique too.

On the other side, sometimes people who considers themselves "unique" are totally mainstream but they don't want to see it. Like "rebellious" teens all dressed the same, listening to the same music, same mannierisms...

IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?
The fact they 'consider' themselves unique whilst all dressing the same or whatever just shows they miss the truth in what they are saying.

Outdated eh? Mmmm. think I'll get my afro back...

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 09:55 AM   #60
philipsmith
Dojo: Ren Shin Kan
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 313
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
t that big organizational world of Aikido, the one my teacher wanted nothing to do with, the one I wanted nothing to do with was asking me to have something to do with.

Regards.G.
If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?

This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 10:16 AM   #61
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,916
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Actually we're already back to the 80s
Duran Duran were not so bad...

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:04 AM   #62
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sheep look the same to people who don't know, but they are unique too.
On the other side, sometimes people who considers themselves "unique" are totally mainstream but they don't want to see it. Like "rebellious" teens all dressed the same, listening to the same music, same mannierisms...
IMO your approach to aikido is not so unique... only a bit outdated but hey, 70's are back, isn't it?
I disagree
I haven't seen any teacher in Aikido who handles a sword or that has both attacks and responses that look like, Graham. Maybe you guys are more informed then me. I have been on the mats with big name people, watched thousands of hours of video, and watched maybe a hundred kids classes.
I can't for the life of me see any real attack or defense happening anywhere.

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?
This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact
Interesting isn't it.
Example: I have never seen anyone who moves like this with a sword. I don't recognize it as a budo, and I can't get him to explain how he thinks it will work with people... from Budo.
Since ya'll are discussing aikido attacks, I am trying to follow along on why he is talking about attack and defense but doesn't show it in any video and keeps starting threads. Again, his movement seems unique in all of Aikido to me, which is why he clearly states that not only does no one get it, they cannot converse with him when he talks about attacks and responses. Those are his words. I guess this will all remain hypothetical until he actually engages the budo community on its own terms of attack and defense and we find out where his unique theories function within the norms of budo.
One thing is for sure. A suprise will be in store for either party because the methods are dramatically different.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-07-2012 at 11:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:07 AM   #63
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,796
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Duran Duran were not so bad...
don't go there! don't make me bring out Wham! (hmm... the sound of an attack) you need to transcend the 70s and 80s.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:08 AM   #64
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?

This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact
Independent doesn't equal isolated. How many reasons would you like? How many do you have?

Or am I Missing your point?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:17 AM   #65
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I disagree
I haven't seen any teacher in Aikido who handles a sword or that has both attacks and responses that look like, Graham. Maybe you guys are more informed then me. I have been on the mats with big name people, watched thousands of hours of video, and watched maybe a hundred kids classes.
I can't for the life of me see any real attack or defense happening anywhere.

Interesting isn't it.
Example: I have never seen anyone who moves like this with a sword. I don't recognize it as a budo, and I can't get him to explain how he thinks it will work with people... from Budo.
Since ya'll are discussing aikido attacks, I am trying to follow along on why he is talking about attack and defense but doesn't show it in any video and keeps starting threads. Again, his movement seems unique in all of Aikido to me, which is why he clearly states that not only does no one get it, they cannot converse with him when he talks about attacks and responses. Those are his words. I guess this will all remain hypothetical until he actually engages the budo community on its own terms of attack and defense and we find out where his unique theories function within the norms of budo.
One thing is for sure. A suprise will be in store for either party because the methods are dramatically different.
Dan
Not my words.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:39 AM   #66
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

No they are mine.
Your words are that your methods are Ueshiba's, and that they are effective, and that you can defeat an attacker with love.
Neither of which have you shown, and in this thread and many others, you state we don't understand your method. Fair enough. We ask, ...you explain nothing.
I agree with Philip
Quote:
If this is the case why post so much on Aikiweb? Why not stay in happy isolation?
This isn't a criticism by the way just a genuine question - after all YOU initiated the contact
I posted a public video link of you.
Where is there an attack with a sword?
Where is there a defense if there is no attack?
Where does love come into anything to attack better?
Where does love come into anything to defend better?
How does your attack/defense movement relate to a budo?
If it doesn't, why do you wear budo clothes and use weapons?
If it does, why doesn't it function like the types of budo we all seem to know and disagree with you about?
All we are looking for is explanations to your continued threads about your theories.
Use your words______________________.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-07-2012 at 11:53 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:03 PM   #67
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,916
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't go there! don't make me bring out Wham! (hmm... the sound of an attack) you need to transcend the 70s and 80s.
I see your Wham! and raise a Soft Cell :P

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:04 PM   #68
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I see your Wham! and raise a Soft Cell :P
I'm not sure if you guys are trying to make a case against the 80s, but it's not working.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:20 PM   #69
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,916
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if you guys are trying to make a case against the 80s, but it's not working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7NyE8o5fxk

Better now?

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 01:17 PM   #70
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No they are mine.
Your words are that your methods are Ueshiba's, and that they are effective, and that you can defeat an attacker with love.
Neither of which have you shown, and in this thread and many others, you state we don't understand your method. Fair enough. We ask, ...you explain nothing.
I agree with Philip

I posted a public video link of you. Where is there an attack with a sword? Where is there a defense if there is no attack? Where does love come into anything you are doing?
Use your words______________________.

Dan
My words regarding Ueshiba are to do with understanding a lot of what he says. My methods are mine, based on principles he talked about and showed . Not quite how you choose to say it.

They are effective? Yes.

They can defeat an attacker? Yes. Nothing extraordinary there.

The use of love in so doing? Yes. That's new or not to others depending on them. It wasn't to Ueshiba.

I think it's more how you or others state they don't understand rather than me. The response tells me and anyone else whether they understand my communication. It's not rocket science to see if someone understands or not. That may be down to the communicator or the receiver but nonetheless true.

How can you understand my methods, you don't use them. You say you have never experienced them so it's self evident that you wouldn't isn't it? Nothing wrong with that. Must be many methods I haven't experienced, many I wouldn't want to either. No problem.

I explain much. So who knows what you mean there, not me.

Public video link, ooh, like the word public like it means other than it does. It's a youtube video. It was assumed by me that some might know what's going on in it. The clue may be in the title? There again it may be misleading. Isn't zen fun.

It's also fun how you presume to tell me all about it as if it is you in it. You even tell the world about it , as if you know what what being drilled, shown, practiced, demonstrated. It shows me how close or far from that days reality you are.

Where is there an attack with a sword? Well, theres no sword there however there is a bokken. One of those things you learn to cut with. To move and cut through. Oh, and by the way, don't stop moving at the point of cutting.

Method number one; Just learn to cut through even if you feel the person won't get out of the way. Forget all how a 'proper' cut should be according to anything you have learned or read or seen in the movies, just cut through and don't stop your forward motion. A hard lesson for many yet a first one.

If you feel you can follow the person and cut then do so. Straight down cut, shomen.

Point? a)Get person through a barrier to do with 'possible harm' as the responsibility in this exercise lies with the 'nage' to move in such a way he doesn't get hit.
b) Aikido deals with motion. That sword cut for this exercise represents any physical weapon be it a sword, metal bar, wooden plank, heavy hammer fist or whatever travelling from up to down coming at and through you. Once again the solution is harmony, motion.

He who sees only master swordsmen fighting in comparison is missing the 'finger pointing to the moon'

Where is there a defence where there is no attack? Quite a weird question as there is one.

The defence is another matter. Many things shown, all different, all different principles, all for different reasons. Let's see now......

There is a) sen no sen etc. (something I usually call all one thing and use the phrase shin shin toitsu)
b) Motion along the 'irimi' line, (off line)

c) reaching center line before the cut can even complete.

d) the 'complete' irimi line as I call it which actuakly is a zig zag.

e) cutting through the sword with weight underside.

f) cutting through the sword with weight underside and thrusting to the throat as one motion
g) spiritual connection.

h) love

i) relationship of center line to facing sword.

j) spiritually walking into the sword while the body moves off line.

k) Being with, as usual.

and more.

Where does love come into what you are doing? Firstly via a discipline, a major principle extant in my Aikido. A principle that shows there is no 'against' of any kind in Aikido. Therefor there cannot be competition or fight. This simple principle is spiritual, a spiritual principle. The principle is Be with. Not be with in order to or close distance or work anything out, no, spiritually be with. An act of love.

Love is also related to space. Thus awareness of circular space and indeed spherical, filled with love.
A discipline. Airy fairy feeling is not love.

Sharing comes from love. Especially sharing space. Spiritually share everything the 'opponent' is doing, physically, mentally, energy wise, all. Yet another discipline. Aligns with Be With.

Only lesson number one. Shows there is much to learn before you think about any ideas of being some kind of master swordsman.

A lesson given after watching him 'think' he was teaching that other guy anything about the sword.

Principles once again, my way. I do not teach how to use a sword, I teach principles where the sword is used to show certain ones. My view is no different from the zen story of the student told to sweep up every day.

One fine day I might say to someone, 'here's a competent kendo man or some such and say pick up the bokken and see how you get on'

One student has done so and he's no swordsman. None of them are. Funny how he was very effective though.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:08 PM   #71
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Thank you. I appreciate the effort, though nothing is stated about how your theories work.
Considering that everything you just outlined is pretty much a violation of competent swordwork done by those in Budo, it stands to reason that the hundred or so koryu people I know who read these pages would never consider anything you do to be related to an attack with a sword. That was why I stated that there really was no defense- as I couldn't see any attack. No one who has trained weapons will move that way as it is suicide on both sides of the equation. Period. No opinion asked or required.

As you yourself just stated there are other methods you are unfamiliar with. I suggest to you (for the third time) that you open yourself up to exploring them. Among those other methods you don't know...are ways to actually use a weapon.
You would do far better in your apparent interest in talking to us here, to consider that there are men here would literally take you apart in a few seconds with a bokken. This is the chief reason so many of us-who have faced some seriously competent weapons people- and also some of us who are those people, were offering you the advice that these are not attacks nor are they defenses we are familiar with in good Aikido or Budo in general.

Until you have tried these theories out on seriously competent people, you are only speculating and have no credible reason to state otherwise. Go right ahead if you want to, but you are going to continue to get these almost 100% negative responses.

If you want to just assert and speculate and throw it out there that it works in your dojo... fine. God Bless. But, as others are telling you, that model worked fine in closed dojos in the 70's. Today if you are not willing or will not allow testing from outside, you're pretty much going to be dismissed out of hand. It is obvious that you are interesting in talking to and connecting with a community so you are going to discover in the process the standards in a given community.

If you feel you have something to offer then the only way that is going to happen in 2012 is to open the doors and you should seriously consider that there are things you need to learn as well. This is good advice Graham, offered by people trying to help you. Mostly because you seem a friendly fellow and people are trying to help you grow. Find some recognized competent people in the community and go for it.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-07-2012 at 02:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #72
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Dan.
I appreciate good intention. However, assumptions not so.

If I ask for help with something I am sure there would be many only too pleased on this forum to oblige.

If I want to learn a different method or even explore one then I am sure the same applies.

If I need to do or learn or improve any aspect then it will be and always has been a matter of if and when. Not subject to anyone elses opinion unless I have expressed a desire to so do.

Results only tell me when need is applicable, they are my expert who I listen to.

My ability is not much I talk about, especially in life, as it is not my main purpose. My purpose is teaching thus I can say with total confidence that most of any grade of martial artist can learn something from me and go away happy, be they ten times better than me at some things or not.

I learn every day and when I get stuck I find the area, seek out someone in that area, and learn.

As far as weapons go then there are some I may not know much about and some I may, to what level is not a question I even give myself. I don't think that way. My level is where it is and if I find I need to improve it I do if possible.

Now, the sword. Once again I have never talked about my personal competency with one, never shown it, probably never will for as I said I do not train people to be swordsmen as a specific purpose.
If a trained swordsman came to me and said they have a particular aspect of they wanted to improve then I would say show me. I would 'play' the part of the opponent only to discover if I could see some way, some principle that would help them in their quest. I would not do anything else.

I reckon I have practiced with and witnessed one of the best swordsmen around. My opinion. So while you pick your jaw back up off of the floor it merely shows I have some idea of the ways and rituals of the sword by virtue of witness first hand if not by levels of skill.

Once again this person is not some world famous name and doesn't want to be either, never did.

Skills of the sword in action, a real Katana not a bokken, up close and personal. So no need to tell me about 'taking apart in two seconds' or any such statements.

Skills in action. versus who knows, for at the times I witnessed they were different visitors from who knows where that he had agreed to show something.

Other skills in action personally witnessed regarding such sword work you probably wouldn't believe for they were hard enough to believe by the few of us there.

Personal choices. We each choose our way. How much getting out there is getting out there? Been through a cycle of that until I came to a realization there and thus chose that was enough for now, time to focus on my way.

Stepping up to a plate and challenges? Been through a cycle of that too and it took me to all manner of places and situations for real which at the time I considered 'budo' Once again, achieved my goal at the time and brought me to my next realization and thus choice.

Thus I have now my own step up to the plate for anyone and have had it for the last ten years. If you want to learn the spiritual side, the compassionate side, the underlying principles, then step up to the plate with an empty cup. I teach one way, my way. How can a man teach anyone elses way?

In my way there is no superior, there is no belt that equals better than, their is no significance on labels. Their is only ability to help another and each other improve.

There are many ways of keeping in touch with other ways of Aikido other than those you prescribe.

I always bump into someone eventually from another style and thus find out first hand about them. No teacher couldn't I would say. I always perk up and listen to students who bump into similar and and the results of their encounters. I have people known from the past who drop by now and again and similar story. When I want to know then someone invariably turns up.

Only now do I come across an intriguing scene. The world of so called Aikido officialdom appearing to say 'if you communicate with us you must come and show' A new phenomenon. I have met many in life from such and they never said such. It wasn't in my plans. Always openly communicated to any Aikidoka in life and indeed any martial artist and we understood each others ways with no problem.
Always if that other wanted to learn something of mine I gladly showed and vice versa. If wanted. The days of proving long since passed and replaced by respect.

More intriguing for me my own refusal to do so but now I have found what that was all about so that part is solved. Choices my friend. Choices based on purpose, needs and wants.

Those who have a purpose, a need or want to 'get out more' and follow it will learn and find hopefully what they are looking for. Those who don't need to or want to and and are happy with their own purpose extant will likewise learn and find what they are looking for. So simple.

Those who insist on what others should do have a purpose which in my mind befits only control and domination and is misplaced in my opinion.

I'll finish off with an amusing saying I found on facebook but I will change some words for they were a bit rude. This saying fits my view on the matter.

A man has a certain 'appendage' that women don't have,
This apendage is like a religion;
It's something you shouldn't take out and wave around in public,
It's also something you definitely shouldn't shove in peoples faces.

Happy training to you.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #73
Brian Gillaspie
 
Brian Gillaspie's Avatar
Dojo: School of Martial and Meditative Arts
Location: Topeka, KS
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 76
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Having seen all the various reactions on here to 'martial' I don't think that term has any fixed meaning among martial artists by the look of it. So what do I say?

Aikido is a martial art. I think everyone in the world would agree give or take.
I'll agree that 'martial' is a relevant term and people can train however they like but I think there are a lot of 'martial' arts, including some Aikido, that I would say is just a form of art. I am not saying you have to walk off the mat every night with blood on your gi to be considered martial but there are many things I see that I can not even begin to understand how they would be considered as 'martial' ...but maybe I am just stupid to understand what I am seeing
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 04:16 AM   #74
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Brian Gillaspie wrote: View Post
I'll agree that 'martial' is a relevant term and people can train however they like but I think there are a lot of 'martial' arts, including some Aikido, that I would say is just a form of art. I am not saying you have to walk off the mat every night with blood on your gi to be considered martial but there are many things I see that I can not even begin to understand how they would be considered as 'martial' ...but maybe I am just stupid to understand what I am seeing
Deceived by your eyes maybe? How can you tell? In truth you can't. You can only assume.

Most people say that 'when the time comes in real life' is the only true test.

Some people say that it's bigger than that, it's how you handle situations in life, including the one above.

Some people refer to 'war' and thus the test would be in battle only.

So what do you see? You don't see these real situations. You merely see a form of practice.

The bruised and bloodied or nth dan practitioner may meet a situation in life and all discipline flies out of the window, all calmness gone, get's a pasting.

Meanwhile the one you couldn't quite understand, in the same situation, no problem.

Do our eyes deceive? Mostly.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 07:15 AM   #75
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Graham:

People have been remarkably patient with you. You come on to this forum presenting yourself as somebody with knowledge and ability. People with demonstrable knowledge and ability have both questioned your claims and outright dismissed your claims. People have asked that you provide some demonstrable examples ( your videos are woefully lacking in this area if you have not already figured that out yet), such as holding an open seminar so that people can assess for themselves what you have to offer. Let's review some of the areas of concerns:

1) You say that you have understand a lot of what O'Sensei said: Fact 1- You do not speak or read Japanese. Fact 2- Much of the translated works of O'Sensei have not been accurately translated.
Fact 3- Much of what O'Sensei use to talk about was so heavily embedded in his deep religious beliefs, that without a deep understanding of the culture and beliefs, many of his own direct students had trouble figuring out exactly what he was trying to say.

Taking those three facts into account, it is highly improbable that you in fact understand a lot of what O'Sensei said. At best, some aspects of the translated works resonate with YOUR belief systems. To most people on this forum, who do have a much deeper understanding of what O'Sensei said (for example Chris Li) they simply point out the error of your ways, to which you seek to wiggle your way out of by claiming that your idiosyncratic understanding is somehow accurate.

2) You claim that what you do is "effective" and based on O'Sensei's principles:
To highly skilled and experienced Aikido teachers, your videos are uniformly dismissed as not representing O'Sensei's principles and displaying no signs of being any where near effective in any manner, shape of form. You talk mysteriously about having spent 10 years testing yourself. You talk mysteriously about some unspoken weapons skills. You talk your way out of having to demonstrate this to any open audience. The burden of proof is simply on you. You can allow Dan Harden to attend one of your classes, since you say that you are open to such encounters. This forum, for the most part, will respect the feedback that Dan provides us with. Better yet, hold an open seminar. Allow some of the senior Aikidoka from Britain to attend, besides other people, and allow your skills to be observed and felt by a larger audience. To Mark Tennenhouse's credit, at least he had integrity to put his money where his mouth was. You have yet to display any kind of budo integrity in terms of allowing what you say to be felt and observed.

You spend so much of your time discounting the feedback from other people. You spend so much of your time telling people that they simply do not understand the depth of your understanding and depth of abilities. You spend no time verifying a single thing. You complain about the keyboard warrior, yet you seem to be the worst offender of all. You come on this forum and put forth words and then hide behind them, saying that you are beyond the need for verification.

People have asked the legitimate question of why do you post on this forum. It seems to me that you should simply stick to a personal blog. If you put forth ideas and beliefs on this forum, it seems to most sane, rational and reasonable people that you should be able to amply demonstrate what you say to an open audience IN PERSON, as opposed to your words.

Many people are conflicted about you on this forum for a number of reasons. One, is that you appear to be a sincere, nice person, BUT you do come across as either overly sanctimonious and/or deluded in your beliefs and abilities. Another reason, is that there are a number of responsible people who view your ideas as being irresponsible (in terms of saying that what you do is martial and effective, while demonstrating nothing of the kind), misrepresenting Aikido in both is philosophy, practice and application. They post, not to enter into some kind of genuine discussion or face-to-face meeting to flesh these things out (you studiously avoid both of these situations), but to try and provide people with what most consider more accurate information. Another reason, is that people have heard what you say before (70's- & 80's) and have watched the responsible martial artists, with genuine integrity, discover that their previously held notions were simply a stage in their training that they moved beyond.

You have already worn out your welcome with some of the most respected martial artists on this forum. Their attempts to guide you were met with an attitude and response that placed you on the ignore list. Dan Harden's latest attempts to assist you in your understanding of things was very kind and very well attended. Your response to him was typical of how your respond to anybody who does not agree with your view of things. You avoid any real tests, while discounting any real need to do so, while trying to pass off your ideas as somehow valid and reasonable within the world of Aikido and larger world of budo.

Frankly speaking, in absence of you demonstrating in an open manner (lets say holding an open seminar), I can only hope that people simply stop responding to you. It seems to spur you on to writing more and demonstrating nothing. People's response should uniformly be "put up or stop typing." At the end of the day, martial arts is about what you CAN do, as opposed to what you CLAIM that you can do.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 01-31-2014 11:35 PM
When is Aikido a Non-Aikido martial art? Allen Beebe General 51 11-13-2011 12:15 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 20 Peter Goldsbury Columns 22 10-20-2011 10:28 PM
How I Met Aikido rulemaker General 2 06-29-2010 10:02 PM
Steven Seagal Interview ad_adrian General 45 01-15-2010 03:34 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:52 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate