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Old 02-06-2012, 12:53 PM   #26
phitruong
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
http://youtu.be/3CGMWlXosp4
This reminded me so much of this thread...OMG
nope. not that one. this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWlJn...eature=related


"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido attacks.

And this one too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M_36uhUSFI

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #28
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
1. Attacks that provide a clear line and provide nage with energy for interaction are not incorrect. The ability to provide that attack with limitation to the [over]extension of uke and the ability to withdraw or continue the attack in another direction is a direct reflection on uke's competence in martial engagement. While not wrong, I think it is better to advocate that uke's who are limited in their ability to continue an attack should work to improve that deficiency.

2. Strikes in all martial are are generally intended to strike the opponent and solicit a response. The limitation of nage to deal with a stylized attack is a reflection of his competency in martial engagement. Again, saying that aikido people do not have to be competent to deal with stylized attacks from other arts is not wrong, but I would advocate that aikido people should learn to deal with any kind of attack.

3. No. Here I think we have difference. Any attack must posses intent, commitment, power and speed. You can vary the amounts of each, but an attack that lacks these traits would not solicit a response from a competent martial artist. If your attack does not solicit a response then it is not a provocation.

4. I am not sure I know what this means. There is a level of complexity that may confuse observers, much like a magic trick to the unlearned magician. However, to a competent martial artist there should be some expectation for that observer to reverse-engineer the demonstration to ascertain what is going on. I am not sure claiming that if you witness a feat that does not appear to be sound martial technique, then you just don't know what is going on.

Aikido is a specialization art, not doubt about it. I think for hobbyists and passionate enthusiasts you can get through without a martial education and exposure to sister arts (and there educational experiences). However, how could more education be harmful? If you can perform aikido on an incompetent uke, why would you not try to perform aikido on a competent one?

This is not budo as I understand it, and it certainly limits the type of training you can enjoy. This posts almost reads like it is excusing poor uke waza and justifying why nage should feel they are receiving a complete training experience. What training is there in throwing someone who is incapable of stopping me?

The observation I make for "poor attacks" in aikido is that they are indicative of a disjointed, unbalanced movement incapable of soliciting a response from the intended target. "Limp arm" is a symptom of a poor attack.

The problem aikido faces with sister arts is that the distance and timing are different. The ability to respond to attacks from other arts is linked to the ability to adjust our distance and timing. Weapons work is one of the methods aikido people use to understand the necessity to alter our timing and distance for different interactions.

I think the subsequent follow-up post to the initial post uses "bobbing and weaving". A boxer bobs and weaves to create an opening to strike or defend (or perhaps a jab). The inability to accelerate our timing to the speed of a boxer is a reflection on our ability, not a denigration of the boxer's stylized attack.

Another example used in the follow-up post is that of a swordsmen's cut. The inability for aikiken to accelerate our timing to defend against an initial cut and then the second cut is a reflection of our sword skills, not our partner's ability to quickly perform multiple cuts.

If you want to advocate that aikido starts with the basics of dealing with stylized [aikido] attacks, fine. But I think we need to be careful about stating that all you need to deal with in aikido are stylized [aikido] attacks. I use my aikido far more dealing with verbal attacks than I do physical ones. Unless your dojo practice shouting at each other about money, or apologizing to your spouse, or confronting your boss, then I think we need to be saying "aikido is about dealing with any attack." This is budo as I understand it.

http://youtu.be/3CGMWlXosp4
This reminded me so much of this thread...OMG
Hi Jon.
A considered response, thank you.

1) I advocate through is Aikido. As to ukes ability to so do or change direction etc. is a different matter, different subject. That's more to do with after nage has moved which is after the attack is done or commenced. More a next phase I would say.

2) I thought that's what I said. But anyway, yes.

3) Provocation to me is merely a type of attack and could include half hearted taps. So not sure about that. I think we do have a difference there for I say it's motion through continuing on. I say Aikido deals with motion as far as attacks go, fast, slow, whatever. Dealing with a very slow attack from the viewpoint of harmony and harmonizing with can be a fruitful excercise.

4) You kind of answered that one yourself. The eyes only see the physical result, the rest is assumption. The onlooker can only 'rationalize' it according to their experience.

Using the term 'competent martial artist' who can deconstuct, reverse engineer what's going on to me is very 'loose' if that's the right word in my opinion. A competent martial artist in that particular style, yes. Of course there will be exceptions.

Education is harmful? Perish the thought.

Incompetent uke vs. competent uke? Que?????

Personally I see no difference in distance and timing regarding sister arts as correct distance is correct distance and timing is timing.

The distances change to do with weapons or even people with longer limbs but all that's changed really is the circle size, the reach distance.

I don't use the term stylized attacks I use the term motion, motion and direction.

My whole point is to see any attack as such and forget the physical form. Therefore no more stylized anything just a representation of energy or power and direction.

Energy motion, the ways of, no more no less. Ineffective energy motion, dangerous energy motion, makes no difference. You cannot change the laws regarding how energy moves thus these laws, these principles are to be learned.

Verbal attacks, physical attacks, emotional attacks, all part and parcel yes I agree.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:27 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Umm... The loudest criticism of such attacks that I have heard has come from aikido rokudans with experience in other arts. Are you saying those people are ill-informed?

Katherine
Loudness equals what? What about the appreciations?

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:29 PM   #30
DH
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Well.......I'm glad the jokes got off of -JUST- aikido. I could post some real ones from actual classes that are...too me anyway...just as funny. But only the comedians new that they were being funny.

The only thing funnier is seeng some people call themselves sensei and call themselves martial--artists, when all evidence points to the contrary on both counts.
Dan
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:32 PM   #31
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Ma ai is by no means unique to aikido, or even to Japanese arts.

"Keeping ma ai" while waiting for an opening sounds like a good way to get yourself backed into an untenable situation, though.

Katherine
I can see ma ai in operation in many arts and sports. What they call it in each one I wouldn't know.

Ma-ai equals backed up in an untenable situation? Methinks not. As I said, a rarely emphasized thing. Dare I say commonly misunderstood????? Perish the thought.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:45 PM   #32
kewms
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I can see ma ai in operation in many arts and sports. What they call it in each one I wouldn't know.

Ma-ai equals backed up in an untenable situation? Methinks not. As I said, a rarely emphasized thing. Dare I say commonly misunderstood????? Perish the thought.
"Rarely emphasized?" Well, my current teacher only mentions it a few times a week, but I don't know if you could call that "rare."

In any case, if a person approaches within a distance you find uncomfortable, you don't really have many choices.

You can back up, "maintaining ma ai." Which will eventually put you in a bad position.

You can stand your ground, and take some action to respond to their approach. Which isn't "wrong," but doesn't "maintain ma ai," either.

You might consider the closely related concept of "de ai," the "critical interval." At this distance, the parties are no longer "safe," and are effectively forced to either enter or retreat.

I know you weren't talking about weapons, but weapons provide the simplest illustration. A person is walking toward you with a sword held in seigan stance. There is no overt "attack," they're just walking, but they do have three feet of sharpened steel aimed at your throat. You can't just stand there.

What do you do? You can step back: they follow. You can step to the side: they follow. Or you can enter, and in so doing force them into a reaction.

Katherine
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:50 PM   #33
kewms
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Loudness equals what? What about the appreciations?

Regards.G.
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're asking here.

My question was very simple: are the aikido rokudans who criticize the attacks commonly seen in aikido dojos "misinformed?"

Katherine
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:55 PM   #34
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're asking here.

My question was very simple: are the aikido rokudans who criticize the attacks commonly seen in aikido dojos "misinformed?"

Katherine
I think that he's saying that you're only emphasizing the negative, how about the people who praise Aikido attacks? OTOH, I don't think that I've ever heard anyone actually praise attacks in Aikido...

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:57 PM   #35
DH
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Loudness equals what? What about the appreciations?

Regards.G.
None what-so-ever that I have heard...ever.
And the methods you espouse here and other threads like it are just simply not any Budo that Aikido people I know recognize, not too mention many others in different arts.
You seem to be rather unique in your ideas.
I would suggest were you looking for affirmation or validation for your rather unique methods you might best look to newbies. I don't know anyone I would consider competent who agrees with this method of training. Most Aikido teachers I have met are openly derisive or dismiss it altogether.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-06-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:02 PM   #36
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
"Rarely emphasized?" Well, my current teacher only mentions it a few times a week, but I don't know if you could call that "rare."

In any case, if a person approaches within a distance you find uncomfortable, you don't really have many choices.

You can back up, "maintaining ma ai." Which will eventually put you in a bad position.

You can stand your ground, and take some action to respond to their approach. Which isn't "wrong," but doesn't "maintain ma ai," either.

You might consider the closely related concept of "de ai," the "critical interval." At this distance, the parties are no longer "safe," and are effectively forced to either enter or retreat.

I know you weren't talking about weapons, but weapons provide the simplest illustration. A person is walking toward you with a sword held in seigan stance. There is no overt "attack," they're just walking, but they do have three feet of sharpened steel aimed at your throat. You can't just stand there.

What do you do? You can step back: they follow. You can step to the side: they follow. Or you can enter, and in so doing force them into a reaction.

Katherine
De ai? I suppose you could call it such, I call it timing, but see what you mean. Ma ai does not mean back up so I fail to see that.

I can watch a boxer keeping ma ai and in the end get a warning for not fighting. Boxers are very good at keeping ma ai and most times in a circular fashion. All sensible martial artists use it and enter when the 'opening' presents itself or they cause one to.

The opposite of ma ai is not standing your ground so you lose me there also.

What do you do with a swordsman? Depends how good you are at keeping ma ai doesn't it?

Need I say there is physical ma ai, mental ma ai and spiritual ma ai? .

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:11 PM   #37
chillzATL
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Please folks, fewer honest, direct responses and more passive-aggressive shots. You'll get your answers then.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:14 PM   #38
DH
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
De ai? I suppose you could call it such, I call it timing, but see what you mean. Ma ai does not mean back up so I fail to see that.

I can watch a boxer keeping ma ai and in the end get a warning for not fighting. Boxers are very good at keeping ma ai and most times in a circular fashion. All sensible martial artists use it and enter when the 'opening' presents itself or they cause one to.

The opposite of ma ai is not standing your ground so you lose me there also.

What do you do with a swordsman? Depends how good you are at keeping ma ai doesn't it?

Need I say there is physical ma ai, mental ma ai and spiritual ma ai? .

Regards.G.
You are implying that your methods can handle a boxer?
Someone skilled in sword?
MMA?
Is this what you are saying?
Can we get a simply yes or no from you?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-06-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:16 PM   #39
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're asking here.

My question was very simple: are the aikido rokudans who criticize the attacks commonly seen in aikido dojos "misinformed?"

Katherine
It's self evident isn't it? I used the words 'those who' if I remember correctly. Being a generality in as much as there are always some examples that fit with what anyone wants to say. You append it to who you like.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:17 PM   #40
DH
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Please folks, fewer honest, direct responses and more passive-aggressive shots. You'll get your answers then.
Hi Jason
Sorry, I don't know how to do the passive / agressive slights...
But then again, they don't know how to do direct answers.

Dan
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
What do you do with a swordsman?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGg_F7s7xg

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Old 02-06-2012, 02:26 PM   #42
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
None what-so-ever that I have heard...ever.
And the methods you espouse here and other threads like it are just simply not any Budo that Aikido people I know recognize, not too mention many others in different arts.
You seem to be rather unique in your ideas.
I would suggest were you looking for affirmation or validation for your rather unique methods you might best look to newbies. I don't know anyone I would consider competent who agrees with this method of training. Most Aikido teachers I have met are openly derisive or dismiss it altogether.

Dan
Rather unique, I like that.

I look for? No. I share, yes. I am interested in the responses, yes.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:50 PM   #43
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Rather unique, I like that.
Why?

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Old 02-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #44
kewms
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
De ai? I suppose you could call it such, I call it timing, but see what you mean. Ma ai does not mean back up so I fail to see that.

I can watch a boxer keeping ma ai and in the end get a warning for not fighting. Boxers are very good at keeping ma ai and most times in a circular fashion. All sensible martial artists use it and enter when the 'opening' presents itself or they cause one to.

The opposite of ma ai is not standing your ground so you lose me there also.

What do you do with a swordsman? Depends how good you are at keeping ma ai doesn't it?

Need I say there is physical ma ai, mental ma ai and spiritual ma ai? .

Regards.G.
Ma ai is a noun, not a verb. It simply describes the distance at which both parties are "safe:" neither can actually strike the other without moving. As such, it doesn't really have an "opposite." There are smaller intervals, and larger intervals, but *some* interval always exists.

It is true that ma ai doesn't mean "back up." Backing up is just one way to adjust the distance. My point, however, is that it is not always possible to simply "maintain ma ai" indefinitely. The terrain may not allow it, or you may be in a multiple attacker situation, or your movement may be limited by the need to protect another person. Rather than pretending such situations don't exist, please explain how you approach them.

Katherine
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:29 PM   #45
kewms
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I think that he's saying that you're only emphasizing the negative, how about the people who praise Aikido attacks? OTOH, I don't think that I've ever heard anyone actually praise attacks in Aikido...
Exactly. Were he -- or anyone else -- to actually produce such an individual, I would consider the source and think about how to respond. Absent an example... *shrug*.

Katherine
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:59 PM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Ma ai is a noun, not a verb. It simply describes the distance at which both parties are "safe:" neither can actually strike the other without moving. As such, it doesn't really have an "opposite." There are smaller intervals, and larger intervals, but *some* interval always exists.

It is true that ma ai doesn't mean "back up." Backing up is just one way to adjust the distance. My point, however, is that it is not always possible to simply "maintain ma ai" indefinitely. The terrain may not allow it, or you may be in a multiple attacker situation, or your movement may be limited by the need to protect another person. Rather than pretending such situations don't exist, please explain how you approach them.

Katherine
I don't know what you mean. Noun, verb? Keep implies movement. Intervals? Again don't know what you mean. Opposite keeping ma ai to me is not keeping ma ai.

All these maybes. I'm pretending nothing thank you.

The paths ie: eight directions, circles, triangles, aid the ability to keep ma ai in all kind of situations. All part of the art of motion.

As to if a position exists where you cannot keep ma ai the it's obvious it would then depend on your ability to enter well wouldn't it? I don't see where you are going with this, if anywhere.

This only increases my belief that maybe more drills are needed on these aspects by some.

A drill where all you are allowed to do is keep ma ai, no matter what or how the person is attacking and then progress to multiple. Then maybe you will end up with a surprising reality, that it is possible.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:16 PM   #47
graham christian
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Why?
Why not? Your short sharp responses are rather unique I find. You must like it too.

Unique or sheep? Mmmmm. To me every single person in the world is unique, I like their uniqueness.

So, 'they' say this or no one I know says that or rokkus say the other doesn't really mean anything to me.

He's a 'boxer' or he's a tenth dan or she's an Aikikai Sandan, to me means first and foremost he or she is a person no different to me.

My friends and associates give their own views on matters and don't hide behind what someone else says or said.

Unique, a lovely word.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:19 PM   #48
Keith Larman
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.

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Old 02-06-2012, 04:37 PM   #49
kewms
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
As to if a position exists where you cannot keep ma ai the it's obvious it would then depend on your ability to enter well wouldn't it?
I would think so. Happy to see you agree.

I raised the point in the first place because you seemed to claim that "keep ma ai" was a sufficient response for most (if not all) situations, and indeed that doing so is the central insight of aikido. I apologize if I have misinterpreted your position.

Katherine
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:48 PM   #50
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, Graham, but do you consider your practice of Aikido to be a martial art? Or is it something that you feel has transcended martial? Just trying to get a "fix" on where you're coming from.
Keith,
Good Luck with that set of questions!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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