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Old 07-02-2002, 02:23 AM   #1
DavidM
Dojo: Aikido of Tucson
Location: Arizona
Join Date: May 2002
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Eek! To Rough?

During class we are instructed to practice a technique with a partner. Being that my class is over half Yudansha,it's VERY intimidating for me...plus everyone is WAY bigger then me, I'm only 6'and 120lbs but I continue to train. Recently I have encountered one Yudansha, who is about 6'2 and 250, and insists on being very rough with me. Most of the time I don't mind it because I learn better and faster under severe pressure, for my safety really. But there are times when it's totally uncalled for.

I'm new to Aikido, only about 3 months of training.

While practicing Kokyo Nage with this Yudansha, I did the throw incorrect, and he grabbed my Gi and threw me many feet into the air, while I landed flat on my back...and got in my face to yell at me what I did wrong.

I'm not the only one he does this too...so I know he just don't wanna pick on me.

My question is how do I go about resolving this...and also, does anyone else encounter this kinda problem in your dojo?

Thanks
David
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:33 AM   #2
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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perspective

It sounds like your teacher likes you. If he didn't like you he would probably ignore you. At least that's one way of looking at this situation.

Another is this: I've trained with a number of shihan over the years, and I've never seen them act in such a way. Does that tell you something?
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:40 AM   #3
Bronson
 
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Hi David,

Have you asked him to lighten up on the intensity a little? Sounds simple but sometimes it works. This can be a touchy subject depending on how your dojo works. If it continues to be a problem I'd definitely talk with your sensei about it if possible.

If he gets in your face and yells again smile and say your sorry but you couldn't hear him, and could he say it again only louder this time. Keep doing that until everyone is staring at him. Ok, maybe you shouldn't do that but it helps to think about it sometimes

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:42 AM   #4
Bronson
 
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Quote:
I'm not the only one he does this too...so I know he just don't wanna pick on me.
So if everyone he does this to refused to work with him he'd be standing there with no partner....hmmm, would he get the message?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:42 AM   #5
erminio
 
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Re: To Rough?

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidM
During class we are instructed to practice a technique with a partner. Being that my class is over half Yudansha,it's VERY intimidating for me...plus everyone is WAY bigger then me, I'm only 6'and 120lbs but I continue to train. Recently I have encountered one Yudansha, who is about 6'2 and 250, and insists on being very rough with me. Most of the time I don't mind it because I learn better and faster under severe pressure, for my safety really. But there are times when it's totally uncalled for.

I'm new to Aikido, only about 3 months of training.

While practicing Kokyo Nage with this Yudansha, I did the throw incorrect, and he grabbed my Gi and threw me many feet into the air, while I landed flat on my back...and got in my face to yell at me what I did wrong.

I'm not the only one he does this too...so I know he just don't wanna pick on me.

My question is how do I go about resolving this...and also, does anyone else encounter this kinda problem in your dojo?

Thanks
David
I think you're in a bad dojo: you are supposed to learn, not to be a joke for a black belt with behavioural troubles;you should speak with your sensei.

Have a good day

Erminio
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Old 07-02-2002, 07:33 AM   #6
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
If he gets in your face and yells again smile and say your sorry but you couldn't hear him, and could he say it again only louder this time. Keep doing that until everyone is staring at him. Ok, maybe you shouldn't do that but it helps to think about it sometimes

Bronson
Actually, I think that's a very good idea. Also, just refuse to work with the creep. If he demands, turn your back and ignore him. You're taking Aikido for yourself, not him.

By the way; which kokyu nage were you doing? (I assume Katata kosa-tori kokyu-nage irimi tobikome?) That technique's as hard to learn as its name - folks in my dojo call it the '20-year technique'. Since the crucial point in performing it is to relax and guide uke into his fall, I'd like to see how well your 'Rambo-san' performs it.

Last edited by DaveO : 07-02-2002 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 07-02-2002, 07:41 AM   #7
shihonage
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There's a guy like that in every dojo.
That however doesn't make the entire dojo "bad".

I must say there's no real way to deal with this, except to let him know when he's going overboard (hey you almost twisted my arm off !).

On the other hand when you start "talking back" to an individual like that, either by imitating what he's doing to you, or by yelling back at him, the situation will start to progressively escalate into something quite ugly and it will be very hard for you to stop him and especially for him to stop himself.
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Old 07-02-2002, 07:47 AM   #8
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Fire and Water

There are two ways to look as this situation.

One, it is exactly as you describe, a bad situation that you are not ready to accept in either challenge or punishment.

Two, the people in the dojo see something in you that could be a whole lot more than you presently want it to be or show during your practice.

If you are being physically abused, then you have a choice of leaving, or training somewhere else. If you are having trouble adjusting to what seems rough, but is quite normal for throws and technique, maybe you are resisting instead of rolling with the power of your training partner?

In any case, no one is going to explain what is going on until you either step back and re-examine the situation, or get an unbiased opinion from someone watching.

Your view must be tempered by observation.

Funny thing about freedom, you only have it when you don't let someone take it away.

Maybe you need to drop out for a while and watch the class, or check out some other dojo's, get a broader perspective on your situation verses what you have written here.
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Old 07-02-2002, 09:26 AM   #9
Genex
 
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(snip)
Your view must be tempered by observation.
(/snip)

Kick his a$$!
no wait, thats not right he might see that coming, when he's in the parking lot run him over,
dodge this man! (splat)


i'm only kidding btw say ow that hurts could you possible not throw me so hard i think my face imprint will remain in that mat for the duration of this lesson, thank you
pete

like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. - The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy on the Pan-galactic Gargleblaster!
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Old 07-02-2002, 09:34 AM   #10
SeiserL
 
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I all my years of Aikido training, I have only run accross the insecure type of indivual you describe once. Most people wouldn't train with him. Several talked to the Sensei and got permission to simply avoid him. With enough input, the Sensei simply asked him to leave.

Talk to your Sensei. IMHO, it is inappropirate and unacceptable for advanced belts to bash the new people. They should train at your level or slightly above to help you improve, not to show off their insecure egos.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-02-2002, 01:59 PM   #11
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
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Well, if you are not suffering any physical injury (he's not snapping your elbows or knocking you unconcious) a little rough training might be good for you.

Space out your training with the guy so you have time to train uneffected by his scornful demeanor. I think he believes he is helping you, and if you can get through his psyco-physilogical dominance and superior technique there is a lot to learn in this situation. Get a little tougher, don't take it personally, and soon you will be able to return the favor and your training will be harmonious, vigorous, and highly educational.

You are just getting a taste of the more "martial" side of the art from a tough cookie. Be glad he's there, something you learn from his might really save your neck one day.
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Old 07-02-2002, 07:49 PM   #12
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Although I am not one to make assumptions, I assume you are paying for your lessons - go speak to your teacher and explain the problem.

I have no fundamental problem with rough training (fond memories of Kyoksuhinkai ... right), but beginners being abused by seniors is an altogether different issue. The suggestion to give this "senior" some of his own medicine could actually backfire with even worse consequences. If he's not the type that you can talk to, go talk to the boss!

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 07-02-2002, 08:39 PM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: To Rough?

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidM
During class we are instructed to practice a technique with a partner. Being that my class is over half Yudansha,it's VERY intimidating for me...plus everyone is WAY bigger then me, I'm only 6'and 120lbs but I continue to train. Recently I have encountered one Yudansha, who is about 6'2 and 250, and insists on being very rough with me. Most of the time I don't mind it because I learn better and faster under severe pressure, for my safety really. But there are times when it's totally uncalled for.

I'm new to Aikido, only about 3 months of training.

While practicing Kokyo Nage with this Yudansha, I did the throw incorrect, and he grabbed my Gi and threw me many feet into the air, while I landed flat on my back...and got in my face to yell at me what I did wrong.

I'm not the only one he does this too...so I know he just don't wanna pick on me.

My question is how do I go about resolving this...and also, does anyone else encounter this kinda problem in your dojo?

Thanks
David
Are you being injured or in real danger of being injured? Or are you simply scared of this guys who is pushing you too far too fast. If you are being injured you should not train with this man, you should tell the Chief Instructor and he should deal with this person.

However if you not actually sustaining injury (or are not just narrowly avoiding it) then this guy is just power tripping you. Thta's his problrm of course but if you keep training things will change. When I was brand new there was a Black belt who scared the pants off me. He pounded me, unnecessarily I thought, and would never let me throw him without first making me aware that he was doing me a favor by falling. I spent a substantial portion of my time hiding on the other end of the mat from him.

He went away for a bit to have an operation. During his absence I got my shodan and was training hard. He returned and wanted to reestablish the old relationship. We were doing shihonage and I went to throw him. He decided to show me that I still couldn't throw him except that i actually had it. I figured that he was way senior to me and would fall when he was ready so I completed the technique. He was so wedded to his status as my senior that he couldn't just take the fall and I ripped out his elbow and put him off the mat for a few weeks. So in the end all this bad karma this fellow you are describing will come back to him. Only a matter of time. Just take care of yourself and don't get injured in the mean time.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 07-05-2002, 08:56 PM   #14
DavidM
Dojo: Aikido of Tucson
Location: Arizona
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Well it was brought up to me.

One of my Sensei's just happened to be reading this post...and discussed it with another of my Sensei's and he told me that I need to bring it up to him, that it shouldn't be happening. Told me he's gonna start to watch that certain Yudansha and make sure he don't do it again.

Talk about a small world eh?

Thanks
David
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Old 07-05-2002, 09:21 PM   #15
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by DavidM
Well it was brought up to me.

One of my Sensei's just happened to be reading this post...and discussed it with another of my Sensei's and he told me that I need to bring it up to him, that it shouldn't be happening. Told me he's gonna start to watch that certain Yudansha and make sure he don't do it again.

Talk about a small world eh?

Thanks
David
Glad to hear that
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Old 07-05-2002, 10:46 PM   #16
PeterR
 
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This forum is scary - I always write with the assumption that I'm being watched.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-06-2002, 12:48 AM   #17
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
This forum is scary - I always write with the assumption that I'm being watched.
I've had more than a couple of people tell me they have read some of my masterpieces.

I always think "uh oh" and immediately start wondering which one.
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Old 07-06-2002, 06:30 AM   #18
guest1234
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That could probably be said about posting anywhere on the web...talk about someone reading your mail!

Just another reason to be careful about suggesting any forum diasgreements be settled in a 'manly' fashion, on or off the mat...and that the younger members not be too forthcoming about personal info.
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Old 07-06-2002, 07:10 AM   #19
tedehara
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveO


Actually, I think that's a very good idea. Also, just refuse to work with the creep. If he demands, turn your back and ignore him. You're taking Aikido for yourself, not him.

By the way; which kokyu nage were you doing? (I assume Katata kosa-tori kokyu-nage irimi tobikome?) That technique's as hard to learn as its name - folks in my dojo call it the '20-year technique'. Since the crucial point in performing it is to relax and guide uke into his fall, I'd like to see how well your 'Rambo-san' performs it.
Glad to hear something is being done about your situtation.

Dave:
Katata kosa-tori kokyu-nage irimi tobikome also known as hachi-no-ji or figure eight throw is also called "the 20 year throw". Not because it's going to take you 20 years to learn it. But because it took O Sensei 20 years to develop it from it's Daito-ryu Aiki-jitsu form.

I've also heard other people talk about this throw like it will take two decades of training to learn it. Believe me, it shouldn't take that long.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 07-08-2002, 01:01 PM   #20
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
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LOL - OK, thanx for that bit of info, Ted!
Although, I can certainly see how it could be interpreted both ways. I've been working on that throw; for all its difficulty, I enjoy practicing it immensely; to me, it kind of sums up the whole concept of Aikido: Simple yet complex, beautiful, surprising, effective.
Actually, I think I'm doing quite well with it, comparitively speaking; the turning point came when it was pointed out to me that the throw was basically the hitori-waza udi-furi choyaku with a person attatched. (At least, that's how I picture it.)
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