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Old 01-26-2012, 09:39 AM   #201
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
What about the sisters and brothers? What about the previous kittens?
Those are irrelevant to the neutered cat. And if the neutering is done early enough, there will be no "previous kittens." Or if there are previous kittens, if they are not neutered, they will be more catlike than the neutered parent. In a neutered animal, a tremendous amount of the "nature" of the creature is eliminated. They lose many instincts that a natural creature has. Neutered cats are good for sitting on laps and making noise.

You might compare the sister and brother cat to other organizations of aikido, such as yoseikan, yoshinkan, tomiki, etc. Or you could compare them to karate, jujutsu, etc., which have not lost the martial root. They were never neutered and they can still pass on true "catness," whereas the neutered line will produce nothing more. And those who are in that line are simply going to get weaker and pass out of all future influence.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Plus what about the tree?
Let me know if you figure out how to neuter a tree. I think the only thing you can do to a tree is cut the root. Have you ever seen a tree continue to live after its roots have been severed?

I think you'd better give up on this line.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-26-2012, 10:33 AM   #202
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
...... Some people say why, I say why bother. Let him do whatever it is he wants to do. You're never going to change the opinion of someone who constantly asserts that he's already doing whatever it is you're talking about when all evidence points to the contrary.
Quote:
I have met black belts .... who were worse than incompetent. It is possible, after all, for a student to miss the point entirely.
Unfortunately, we hear a lot of preaching today, from just such people.
Best wishes.
David
The hypocrisy of martial artists is evident in all of their words. They consider challenges rude, yet they brag on capabilities of their teachers, their styles and their methods. Results do matter. The one solution to both of your observations is to put people through the standards their teachers went though...put them to the test. Here we are talking about what?
Throwing......people!!!
Like it or not, get it or not, we are all talking about them ending up on the ground and us standing. That...is a measurable result; levels of skill in attacking, levels of skills in resisting, ability to neutralize and control. The idea of letting a fall happen is amateurish, foolish and does not belong in a budo discussion. It is flawed and invented by modern people who are in fact not doing a budo at all, but a quasi-religeous, philosophical and highly cooperative drill-to the extent of the attacker throwing their own center... best called something else and not budo, It will not last one minute into meeting a competent opponent. It would be more honest if that during their reinvention of a new way...those doing this went all the way and also dumped the budo clothing, weapons and language and called it something else other than aikido or budo. Most I meet in Aikido are appalled by them as well.

Your incompetent black belts (who in my view extend from shodan to shihan) have no "voice" in person, on a mat they are nothing special. They "preach" on the internet -because it is the one venue they have a voice in- until they are exposed. Hence they avoid being tested at all costs. Putting them to the test, helps to sort and sift through and eliminate them, so we can spend valuable time with people who do know what they are doing, hence talking about.
Our answers are not always going to be found in the big shots either. Most of the big shot Budo teachers -including Japanese Shihan- who are out their (some now supposedly teaching internal power with little to show) would be in serious trouble being faced on two different levels; a) Being tested for IP/Aiki b) being tested for provable fighting skills identified as aiki instead of normal fighting. Sifting through them and putting them in their place (good or bad) benefits us all as well. Why? So we can move on to others and not waste so much of our time.
I am going to include once again the Ueshiba test. If these people claim to have aiki, then they should feel unusual and be able to do unusual things to a broad range of...NON-COOPERATVE people looking to see them undone. Not students standing their glassy eyed, and all but hypnotized, who attack and their bodies instantly go into ukemi mode! Good God what I wouldn't give to be allowed to do certain tests on some of these teachers. Including truly attacking some of these Japanese big shots and not have it be considered "rude." It would expose the sham and wee would be having a completely different discussion with a host of people who truly think some of these teachers are "on a different level."

Thankfully Budo is still home to a tough process, people who still honor the old ways and are smart enough to sift through the average, everyday masses of budo-ka and do just what Budo people have done for generations; listen to word of mouth from other competent people and go find those who are gifted and have produced vetted results.

Why did that help?
Think of it this way. Why did the greats appear at all? How did men with little or no formal training (there are many examples of this in budo) appear and decimated those in established budo? How could this happen?
It is because the vast majority of people in budo...aren't anything special or particularly gifted. Without an average...you have no greats. Budo, is the home of the average, no more than wallpaper out from among which, stood the greats. How did you get to train with them, or even meet them? It was tough to find them, tough to get an introduction, and even tougher to become a student. IME, one of the good things the internet has truly accomplished for budo is to save smart people from wasting so much of their precious time in sifting through the wallpaper to find the truly gifted and arranging introductions in ways not previously available.

We can all enjoy each other and our efforts. But it is an incredible fallacy to think all efforts are equal. They are not. People today want cheap validation and equality, unearned. No one wants to face the prospects of having strived and sweated and to have given their all, only to arrive at...average. Hence they set about creating new standards and definitions that require no real tests...so they can enjoy their practice. Okay. All is well....until they tell an international community, they both understand and can do things the greats did.
Then and only then, do they open themselves up for comparative scrutiny. As unwelcomed as that is, they bring it on themselves.

I suggest that in the end, we may find the best solution for all parties is to open the doors. Testing, as a community, helps everyone to truly understand the bigger picture, to know where we are each at and maybe to uncover some truths that will benefit us all. It is a vital dynamic; sought by some, avoided by many....and dismissed all together by those making excuses.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-26-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 01-26-2012, 11:38 AM   #203
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Edit:
It is worth considering that when it comes to highly cooperative practice, specifically in regard to its limitations as a training model:
There is a learning curve in most arts that includes cooperation at lower levels. We all have it and have trained it. Worthy of note is it is only...at the lower level of learning. Most move on to active resistence.
One strident argument of the Aiki arts that I have never bought into is the so called "destructive" nature of their stuff were it used on resistenting ukes. That is of course true, but it is only partially true. Teaching better attacks and more active resistence and the sensitivity needed, both to do and to handle each role would seem more logical and benficial to me. Martial arts are best done as a fluid drill and not a static kata, which is part of aikido (one of many of it's potential strengths and an improvement over Daito ryu) but it does not explore more stressful attacks from what I have seen.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-26-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:00 PM   #204
chillzATL
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Edit:
It is worth considering that when it comes to highly cooperative practice, specifically in regard to its limitations as a training model:
There is a learning curve in most arts that includes cooperation at lower levels. We all have it and have trained it. Worthy of note is it is only...at the lower level of learning. Most move on to active resistence.
One strident argument of the Aiki arts that I have never bought into is the so called "destructive" nature of their stuff were it used on resistenting ukes. That is of course true, but it is only partially true. Teaching better attacks and more active resistence and the sensitivity needed, both to do and to handle each role would seem more logical and benficial to me. Martial arts are best done as a fluid drill and not a static kata, which is part of aikido (one of many of it's potential strengths and an improvement over Daito ryu) but it does not explore more stressful attacks from what I have seen.
Dan
This really crosses over to what Ellis was saying about ukemi in the koshi thread. They almost feed each other. You have people that don't learn good ukemi for the sake of protecting themselves. It is, at best, to allow for prettier techniques. So if proper safe falling isn't a concern, why would actually throwing someone to the ground be either?
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #205
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Those are irrelevant to the neutered cat. And if the neutering is done early enough, there will be no "previous kittens." Or if there are previous kittens, if they are not neutered, they will be more catlike than the neutered parent. In a neutered animal, a tremendous amount of the "nature" of the creature is eliminated. They lose many instincts that a natural creature has. Neutered cats are good for sitting on laps and making noise.

You might compare the sister and brother cat to other organizations of aikido, such as yoseikan, yoshinkan, tomiki, etc. Or you could compare them to karate, jujutsu, etc., which have not lost the martial root. They were never neutered and they can still pass on true "catness," whereas the neutered line will produce nothing more. And those who are in that line are simply going to get weaker and pass out of all future influence.

Let me know if you figure out how to neuter a tree. I think the only thing you can do to a tree is cut the root. Have you ever seen a tree continue to live after its roots have been severed?

I think you'd better give up on this line.

Cheers.

David
Nah, you prune the tree and it's roots get stronger.

By the way, with the example you give on cats it sounds like you think Aikido progression is genetic. Ha,ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:38 PM   #206
Marc Abrams
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

The Aiki Expo's provided a remarkable opportunity for "truths" to be discovered. In the world of martial arts, words without the ability to act have no meaning, no virtue, no merit and should be accorded no meaningful place in this world. This debate about whether to throw or not is just another venue where some people talk and when asked to put their words to the test, find every reason to decline the offer. We have proverbial neutered cats who talk about being able to do things well that big figures in the Aikido world, like Tohei Sensei did and decline to prove that they can actually do what they claim! They can wax poetically until the moon turns to cheese and nothing of merit is ever accomplished. To Stanley Pranin's credit, Mark Tennenhouse, progenitor of "Short-Range Aikido" was given a venue to put his words to action. Obviously, he went down in flames, but at least he had the guts to show up and give it a try. That is far more than some other people on this forum are willing to do. Mr. Tennenhouse was not intentionally injured by anybody. He hurt his back by trying something foolish. He was treated with a level of respect that is rarely seen in other martial arts venues.

Jun does have to step in at times when tempers flare. Typically this occurs when people are asked to be held to task for what they say and claim to do. Just imagine what another round of Aiki Expos could accomplish. The first ones woke our world up and for some, placed them in a direction back to truth within budo that no organization can claim responsibility for or hide people from for that matter. It would be wonderful to get together with many of us, even those who we doubt have the ability to do what they claim to do. Wonderful friendships are always made and realities emerge from the multitude of claims of higher truths. This process is happening on smaller scales throughout our Aikido world. It is only for the betterment of our art that this happens. I am trying hard to simply stop engaging in debates with those people who proffer only talk and find every reason to decline ever having to publicly demonstrate some truth behind the words. I relish the opportunity to continue to reach out and meet and train with different people. This process use to lie at the heart of serious martial arts training. Those that are unwilling to publicly demonstrate their claimed truths will only continue to rack up large post numbers while dumbing down the quality of discussions that can be of great benefit to many. Sad to see, but this has become a too familiar pattern on this forum that has chased many experienced and truly knowledgeable martial artists away from discussions here. If we want to be responsible for this forum remaining as a great source of valuable information, I believe that unless we are willing to hold people accountable to put their words into demonstrable actions, we will continue to turn away talented people from being willing to engage in important discussions in this venue. I am not talking about dojo storming. I am simply talking about the respectful, getting-together of people to test alleged truths with the higher goal of helping everybody develop deeper and more meaningful realities in our Aikido community. In the process, we forge new friendships, deepen the ones we have, and help our community raise it's overall level of martial ability.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:42 PM   #207
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nah, you prune the tree and it's roots get stronger.
Yeah...but the question is neutering, not pruning. The only real comparison to neutering in trees is cutting the root. Pruning is like having your fingernails and hair trimmed. Neutering cuts off something that won't grow back.

What's happened in aikido is a denial of its roots and serious attempts to sever its ties not only to Sokaku Takeda, but even its roots in Morihei Ueshiba's power.

Now, the talk is that "power" in its own right is bad. Strength is bad. Intention and will are bad. Only swirling around is good and aikido techniques are only good if they occur more or less accidentally.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
By the way, with the example you give on cats it sounds like you think Aikido progression is genetic. Ha,ha.
Your frustration is showing Graham.

Like I said, you should let this line drop.

Have you ever visited Japan? Ever lived there?

One thing I found is that, regardless of all the talk, strength is revered in Japan. They'll be nice to you just as a social custom, even if you're weak, your technique is incompetent and you clearly don't know what you're doing. If you have good technique, they'll be nicer. But if you are strong, they will admire you. And that includes what I've seen of aikikai. But they tend to keep that in-house and let the rank and file go on believing that you can get the real thing by accident.

And as for a genetic progression in aikido...what do you think aikikai is, ruled as it was by Ueshiba's son (who was less skilled than many of Morihei's direct students) and as it is now by Morihei's grandson? Do you think aikido is in the Ueshiba genes and only his descendants can propagate it? Haven't you ever heard of learning "through the skin"? You can only get that by long-term direct association (in person) with a master. It's direct transmission--the kind of thing Mochizuki and Shioda got directly from Ueshiba. Those guys never trained under Ueshiba's students, but Mochizuki was supervisor of the uchi deshi when he lived at the Hell Gym and many of Ueshiba's students learned from him. In fact, after Mochizuki returned from Mongolia after the war, Morihei sent Kisshomaru to stay with Mochizuki and train with him. So if Morihei had his chosen successor train under Mochizuki, would you rather train with Mochizuki or Kisshomaru?

Do you think someone who never trained extensively and directly with a 1st generation student of Morihei Ueshiba can develop the same kind of aikido? It can't come through words and it can't come through books. It can only come one-on-one. Passing the essence of aikido in that way, then, is rather like passing the DNA code directly from person to person. I'd rather inherit Ueshiba's secrets than his genes.

Cheers.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-26-2012 at 12:49 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2012, 01:07 PM   #208
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah...but the question is neutering, not pruning. The only real comparison to neutering in trees is cutting the root. Pruning is like having your fingernails and hair trimmed. Neutering cuts off something that won't grow back.
Or it might be like cutting off the stamen, which can grow back later if we choose to let them. Some "growers" like to keep their pollen sacks removed from the herd so as to achieve a...er...more heady effect.
And to be clear, I'm not commenting on anyone's aikido specifically; just playing with the metaphor.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-26-2012 at 01:12 PM.

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Old 01-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #209
phitruong
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

cut it out you guys with these neutering stuffs! you folks give the creep. the topic is about throwing, not neutering. of course, if there are techniques that can neuter while throwing, then i would like to know. it could come in handy. wonder what such throw would be like. maybe involving a pull-up at the end of the throw as Ellis suggested in another thread. i meant you can just grab the other bugger's gi pants and pull up with a twist at the end, sort of an atomic wedgie koshinage. just thinking out loud on how to go about doing a neutering koshinage. which got me to think about neuter aikido. would such aikido style only have techniques for the purpose of neutering? and wondering if they have technique like yankyo? wonder what sort of warm-up routines such aikido style practice.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:55 PM   #210
Marc Abrams
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
cut it out you guys with these neutering stuffs! you folks give the creep. the topic is about throwing, not neutering. of course, if there are techniques that can neuter while throwing, then i would like to know. it could come in handy. wonder what such throw would be like. maybe involving a pull-up at the end of the throw as Ellis suggested in another thread. i meant you can just grab the other bugger's gi pants and pull up with a twist at the end, sort of an atomic wedgie koshinage. just thinking out loud on how to go about doing a neutering koshinage. which got me to think about neuter aikido. would such aikido style only have techniques for the purpose of neutering? and wondering if they have technique like yankyo? wonder what sort of warm-up routines such aikido style practice.
Phil:

You are coming dangerously close to discovering the secret technique of yankyourjohn !

Here is a link to the secret training to defend against that deadly technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:02 PM   #211
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

I believe the correct term for an"atomic wedgie throw" is fundoshinage.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:06 PM   #212
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
which got me to think about neuter aikido. would such aikido style only have techniques for the purpose of neutering? and wondering if they have technique like yankyo? wonder what sort of warm-up routines such aikido style practice.
You could ask Ashida Kim about "Monkey Steals the Peach" technique.

Looks legit.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:09 PM   #213
Marc Abrams
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You could ask Ashida Kim about "Monkey Steals the Peach" technique.

Looks legit.
Demetrio:

They cut the worst pictures out! Ashida Kim eating the unwashed peaches.........

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:11 PM   #214
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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This really crosses over to what Ellis was saying about ukemi in the koshi thread. They almost feed each other. You have people that don't learn good ukemi for the sake of protecting themselves. It is, at best, to allow for prettier techniques. So if proper safe falling isn't a concern, why would actually throwing someone to the ground be either?
It crosses over but is a step after that, on to going into a full on resistance model-which Ellis is very experienced in as well. He was only discussing the basics for training in that thread. So I was covering all my bases: cooperative kata to learn safely at the beginning (which is where many get stuck forever) gradual movement into learning to attack better and hence concurrently defend better, onto fluid drills, on to sparring. Ukemi is not the same in those three models. The chances of pulling off those throws is reduced dramatically and your body takes on a different feel when you are in full resistance throughout a drill then if you take ukemi. It changes the dynamic in ways that apparently only those cross train are even aware of.

The folks who still think Ueshiba was discussing harmonizing as uke partly throwing themselves and Nage partly throwing Uke, don't have Ueshiba's power or skill and will never understand his use of control, and how to train it. You are...NEVER...going to see them step onto a mat with those who do.
As Marc said, instead you will hear every excuse imaginable why they won't.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-26-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:37 PM   #215
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The folks who still think Ueshiba was discussing harmonizing as uke partly throwing themselves and Nage partly throwing Uke, don't have Ueshiba's power or skill and will never understand his use of control, and how to train it. You are...NEVER...going to see them step onto a mat with those who do.
As Marc said, instead you will hear every excuse imaginable why they won't.
Dan
Well, Jason's ready to meet you and I'm looking forward to meeting again...

But I'm not sure I'd tell Phi about it....

Unless he agrees to wear boxing gloves!

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:42 PM   #216
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:49 PM   #217
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, Jason's ready to meet you and I'm looking forward to meeting again...
But I'm not sure I'd tell Phi about it....
Unless he agrees to wear boxing gloves!
Cheers.
David
Well none of you guys are exactly practicing the type of bliss bunny Aikido we have been discussing though!!
I don't know what the hell I am going to do, I don't even want to turn on my email anymore. I have:
16 private seminars in the works most don't want newbies coming anymore
8 more I have to plan
6 requests for seminars with new people allowed
All this year, all over world...which I can only do if my normal business stays slow!!!
Dan
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:51 PM   #218
chillzATL
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.
testing and competing have similar goals but are very different. Aikido doesn't need competition, but it certainly needs a healthy dose of honest testing to be everything that it can be. I want to see it be everything it can be...for me.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:51 PM   #219
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Competing?

Where did anyone mention competing?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.
On the other hand, from my perspective, it looks to me like "ordinary" aikido people are all about "winning" every time: they never lose. They never experience what it is to lose, which is a vital lesson for human life.

To me, the "fact" that aikido people "always win" is one of the most corrupting influences in the activity (which at that point can no longer be called an art). In judo, you get humbled a lot and even though you win from time to time, you never forget that you can lose. And that represents death.

If aikido people really understood that they are playing against Death, they might start paying attention to some of the gaping holes in the technique and clean it up a bit.

Testing is also far different from competition. Do you want to drive across a bridge that no one has ever tested?

Testing is vital to real budo and when it's deleted from aikido, aikido ceases to be budo.

Richard Kim told a story about his Sensei, who tested his students (who were up for menkyo kaiden in that art) by laying a plank on the ground and having them walk from end to end. Of course, they all made it very well. Then he took them all up to a mountain pass and laid the plank across a gap above a long, shear drop. None of the students could walk across it then, but the Sensei strolled across as if the plan were still flat on the ground.

Testing of ability is far different from testing for rank.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-26-2012 at 02:58 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:55 PM   #220
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well none of you guys are exactly practicing the type of bliss bunny Aikido we have been discussing though!!
I don't know what the hell I am going to do, I don't even want to turn on my email anymore. I have:
16 private seminars in the works most don't want newbies coming anymore
8 more I have to plan
6 requests for seminars with new people allowed
All this year, all over world...which I can only do if my normal business stays slow!!!
Dan
Well, if you find yourself down this way and want someone to work out with, let us know!

I'm trying to figure out how I can get back up to Boston.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:58 PM   #221
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah...but the question is neutering, not pruning. The only real comparison to neutering in trees is cutting the root. Pruning is like having your fingernails and hair trimmed. Neutering cuts off something that won't grow back.

What's happened in aikido is a denial of its roots and serious attempts to sever its ties not only to Sokaku Takeda, but even its roots in Morihei Ueshiba's power.

Now, the talk is that "power" in its own right is bad. Strength is bad. Intention and will are bad. Only swirling around is good and aikido techniques are only good if they occur more or less accidentally.

Your frustration is showing Graham.

Like I said, you should let this line drop.

Have you ever visited Japan? Ever lived there?

One thing I found is that, regardless of all the talk, strength is revered in Japan. They'll be nice to you just as a social custom, even if you're weak, your technique is incompetent and you clearly don't know what you're doing. If you have good technique, they'll be nicer. But if you are strong, they will admire you. And that includes what I've seen of aikikai. But they tend to keep that in-house and let the rank and file go on believing that you can get the real thing by accident.

And as for a genetic progression in aikido...what do you think aikikai is, ruled as it was by Ueshiba's son (who was less skilled than many of Morihei's direct students) and as it is now by Morihei's grandson? Do you think aikido is in the Ueshiba genes and only his descendants can propagate it? Haven't you ever heard of learning "through the skin"? You can only get that by long-term direct association (in person) with a master. It's direct transmission--the kind of thing Mochizuki and Shioda got directly from Ueshiba. Those guys never trained under Ueshiba's students, but Mochizuki was supervisor of the uchi deshi when he lived at the Hell Gym and many of Ueshiba's students learned from him. In fact, after Mochizuki returned from Mongolia after the war, Morihei sent Kisshomaru to stay with Mochizuki and train with him. So if Morihei had his chosen successor train under Mochizuki, would you rather train with Mochizuki or Kisshomaru?

Do you think someone who never trained extensively and directly with a 1st generation student of Morihei Ueshiba can develop the same kind of aikido? It can't come through words and it can't come through books. It can only come one-on-one. Passing the essence of aikido in that way, then, is rather like passing the DNA code directly from person to person. I'd rather inherit Ueshiba's secrets than his genes.

Cheers.

David
The correct term may be editing. Pruning.

Anyway, thanks for the little history lesson (as if I didn't know already)

Why you're talking about the fellows you mention I don't know.

Why you mention it doesn't come through books etc, I don't know either.

As this thread is about throws I could safely say 'You've thrown me' Unfortunately it wasn't a nice circular one, more of a spiral.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:10 PM   #222
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well none of you guys are exactly practicing the type of bliss bunny Aikido we have been discussing though!!
I don't know what the hell I am going to do, I don't even want to turn on my email anymore. I have:
16 private seminars in the works most don't want newbies coming anymore
8 more I have to plan
6 requests for seminars with new people allowed
All this year, all over world...which I can only do if my normal business stays slow!!!
Dan
Dan,

are our only choices:

1. Hope Dan's normal business picks up so that he has to cancel some of those other dates and can then get something going in the beautiful southeast US of A.

or

2. Hope Dan's normal business stays slow so that he has more time to plan something in the beautiful southeast US of A.

?? please clarify
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:14 PM   #223
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.
True. Competing with is not good Aikido. The winning you talk about is to do with that it seems obvious to me. Competitive winning.

Testing? In that respect also is 'anti Aikido' from my perspective.

Testing for improvement I would say is done every week and for some nearly every day.

RegardsG.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #224
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.
Mary:

Where did I say anything about winning and losing? Winning and losing is important to people who are too insecure with themselves to use testing as means of self-improvement. I am talking about empirical testing, which O'Sensei did and is the essential underpinning of martial arts. Religion seems to be the only major human endeavor where you are not allowed to test and question, NOT martial arts. Aikido is a martial art. If you want to reduce and significantly distort my message (and Dan's) to winning and losing & competition then own up to your own distortions placed upon us, or simply apologize to us for such a gross and inaccurate distortion.

Since when is Aikido suppose to be a shared delusional space? Cooperative practice is a modality of training and does not represent reality (at least not mine). Did you not take tests in your style of Aikido? Testing is not about winning and losing. Testing is about remaining anchored firmly within reality. Martial arts reality explicitly implies some degree of real-life capability. If you cannot execute a technique where the uke has no choice in ukemi, but instead TAKES ukemi, then some sense of a larger reality is missing and is a critical feedback loop in a training regime. Worse than that, is that if you have to find that reality out in a real-life encounter, then you place your own safety and well-being at real risk. Cooperative practice is a critical component in that training regime, and not the training regime in it's entirety. In reality, ukemi is not a choice of the uke.

By the way, I do Shindoryu Karate as well. It has nothing to do with competitions and winning & losing. I hope that clears up some lack of understanding that you display regarding karate. Did you attend any of the Aiki Expo's? Ushiro Sensei (shindoryu karate) was a major instructor at all of them. I guess Stanley Pranin saw some value in his teachings to the Aikido community at large.

As far as I am concerned, the pigeon-holing of the testing of ones' ideas and skill sets as simply competition for winning and losing falls under my longer post's classification of useless excuses for why a person should not have to demonstrate some reality behind alleged truths and perceived abilities. The Aiki Expo's clearly pointed this pattern out, while enabling significant growth to occur within our art. The courage of the attendees and instructors to go beyond myopic approach of remaining within a collusive training environment, enabled genuine bridges of understanding to be built, created new and lasting friendships and opened up the opportunity for us to be able to hellp keep Aikido as a real-life, martial art. O'Sensei did not practice or teach any shared delusional space, nor should we. The training that took place at the Hombu dojo while O'Sensei was alive was not some shared, delusional space either. There was a reason that it was called the Hell Dojo at one point in time. If we are not willing to test things out, then we risk the danger of falling into the comfort zone of a useless, shared delusional space. Aikido is different because of the potential to be effective in a conflict without having to become more violent than the attacker. That reality will never be discovered if people hide behind entirely collusive and cooperative practice.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #225
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.
Aikido was and is all about controlling others.
Exerting his will on others, is what the founder did to the day he died when someone grabbed his wrist. His superior center took control of theirs as he blended with it internally. The harmony he discussed was within himself which then controlled and neutralized others.
If not, there is no harmony as you will be the one controlled. Either way someone is going to get controlled.
It's okay that I don't think you understand what he was doing, and you think I don't. We have agreed to disagree before and I appreciate the polite, although frank manner in which we do.

Since you mentioned me and what I am doing as opposed to you:
Kickboxing, jujutsu, MMA and weapons is a whole different topic.One I am fully capable of discussing with you but I am wholeheartedly uninterested in using on you. Nor do I want to compete.That's not the type of testing we are talking about, Mary.

What we are discussing is demonstrable aiki. I would just touch hands with you between us anywhere on our person, and let you try to move me or stop me from moving and controlling you; gently, nicely, even kindly and laughing and talking while doing it. The very soft nature of it will be self-evident, but kiddo...you will be moved. And that is all there is to it. No rough housing, no competing. Your every effort will be neutralized and brought under my control in accord with the very principles Ueshiba talks about. And then I will explain where it comes from in his writing, what it means in context to the greater picture in Asian arts and then how to start doing it-usually while poking fun at myself and generally having fun.
To me...what we are talking about is deeper than anything in those arts you mentioned, and in what I have seen in modern Aikido (so far). It's aiki, it's a blast and it usually makes people smile or laugh out loud!
It makes discussion of throwing and how and why aiki is a different discussion when it comes to throwing than simple jujutsu principles, take on a whole new meaning.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-26-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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