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Old 01-23-2012, 06:17 PM   #101
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Folks
This is the essence of it.....this is the center of it .........when your movement is so connected within yourself that anything (everything) you do cause shifts, irresistible shifts in the other that are not explainable, that may never rise to the level of awareness. These shifts result in destabilization, imbalances.....and don't require the other to be cooperative in anyway. Isn't this a goal of Aikido? It is of mine.
Gary
Hi Gary
So very true isn't it?
It is the reason the heretofore mistranslated and nontranslated material will be made known. In direct contrast to so much of the poor teaching put out by the Japanese, Ueshiba himself is a beacon; stating that the source of aiki is in connection inside of you. Over and over his caveate to some pretty important commentary on internal principles begin with:
"In this thing called aiki...The mystery aiki is revealed... Aiki is created by..."
Then he proceeds to talk about connecting you to you, inside yourself, the union of opposites as the source of aiki-In yo ho.
The senior Japanese teachers in aikido we all counted on?
Crickets.

Here we read...do we throw? how to throw and what makes a throw.. all spelled out in blazing, intricate, detail without a single word of what is thee...most important practice, in all of aikido...the pracitce that changes everything..everything...according to the guy who created the art.!

No wonder no one gets it including so many of the Japanese Shihan everyone keeps woo wooing about. . At least some of the leadership- including Japanese Shihan- are out there trying to figure out how to do it and teach it.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-23-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:31 PM   #102
hughrbeyer
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

But bringing this back to the point of the thread.... If I "try to throw" uke, inevitably I'll reach out of myself to make them go down. I'll compromise my structure trying to disrupt theirs. If I think I am "doing to uke" rather than "doing with uke" I'm inevitably going to start trying to manipulate them. In fact, "now you're trying to manipulate me" is rather common feedback for me to give partners who have given up on finding the internal connection and are ... just trying to throw.

So I don't think the advice is bad as such. I just think it's been totally misinterpreted. Of course you're imposing your will on the situation. How else do you improve it? But how you improve it is not by running around with your hair on fire but by being the most connected and centered person in the room. Then other people conform to you without even being aware of it.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:46 PM   #103
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
But bringing this back to the point of the thread.... If I "try to throw" uke, inevitably I'll reach out of myself to make them go down. I'll compromise my structure trying to disrupt theirs. If I think I am "doing to uke" rather than "doing with uke" I'm inevitably going to start trying to manipulate them. In fact, "now you're trying to manipulate me" is rather common feedback for me to give partners who have given up on finding the internal connection and are ... just trying to throw.

So I don't think the advice is bad as such. I just think it's been totally misinterpreted. Of course you're imposing your will on the situation. How else do you improve it? But how you improve it is not by running around with your hair on fire but by being the most connected and centered person in the room. Then other people conform to you without even being aware of it.
High Hugh
I'm sorry but that is a fundemental fallicy. If I "try to throw" uke, inevitably I'll reach out of myself to make them go down. I'll compromise my structure trying to disrupt theirs.
There is no need to give up or extend out of...your center to take theirs. It doesn't work that way. Your sphere of influence -when properly trained-is huge. I extend my center- out to the end of a twelve foot spear. As you have seen and felt with a nine foot naginata crushing your sword down; did you think that the naginata guy's center had to be compromised or extended out from him, to do that?
It is the retaining of you center...that takes theirs in a different way than is normally felt or seen.

As I said earlier it is very difficult to have a conversation, when people who think they are doing aiki...are functioning on a foundationally different operating model. They are truly not the same, and it is the reason that internal people doing aiki (well those who are not full of shit anyway) truly are functioning different than you guys.
External movement without aiki-which is the majority of aikido- is fine no problem....just different.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-23-2012 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:28 AM   #104
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Again, who are you to decide?
Anyone one can, this is not value judgement, this is as factual as carpentry. If one takes out the martial out the martial art, something essential is lost. If one is tea intolerant and can't touch or smell the stuff one can't do chado. One could go through the motions of the tea ceremony with say Rooibos, but something essential will be missing ad in no way this will be a "Way".

Anyone can see that.

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Old 01-24-2012, 03:31 AM   #105
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Ive recently been reading a little about Neuroplasticity.
In brief, for many years it was believed that our brain was fixed (ie one part is linked to the movement of one finger, another the elbow, etc.)_I think its called Body mapping. Through research it was proven that this was not the case, the brain is not fixed its more like plasticine/clay (not sure the US equivalent) ie moldable.

Other parts of the brain can be retrained to take over an injured area.
What I found interesting as a martial artist is that our brain not only maps our body parts but also the area in space around us which our limbs move through (explains the feeling of sensing somebody creeping up behind you).

They have also shown that this body mapping of space aroung the body [b]increases when using a tool/B]. So now when Im told or read "the weapon is an extension of you" or as Dan wrote "I extend my center- out to the end of a twelve foot spear", in my mind, western science seems to be agreeing with something thats been accepted in Asia for many years.

I want to add that similarly to the recent accepted research on fascia, intellectually understanding this information absolutely does not mean you can do it.
Sorry for the derail.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:46 AM   #106
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Alex Ferreras wrote: View Post
Ive recently been reading a little about Neuroplasticity.
In brief, for many years it was believed that our brain was fixed (ie one part is linked to the movement of one finger, another the elbow, etc.)_I think its called Body mapping. Through research it was proven that this was not the case, the brain is not fixed its more like plasticine/clay (not sure the US equivalent) ie moldable.

Other parts of the brain can be retrained to take over an injured area.
What I found interesting as a martial artist is that our brain not only maps our body parts but also the area in space around us which our limbs move through (explains the feeling of sensing somebody creeping up behind you).

They have also shown that this body mapping of space aroung the body [b]increases when using a tool/B]. So now when Im told or read "the weapon is an extension of you" or as Dan wrote "I extend my center- out to the end of a twelve foot spear", in my mind, western science seems to be agreeing with something thats been accepted in Asia for many years.

I want to add that similarly to the recent accepted research on fascia, intellectually understanding this information absolutely does not mean you can do it.
Sorry for the derail.
There's an excellent book on how body mapping, the nuero system, proprioception etc works called The Body Has a Mind of Its Own by by Sandra Blakeslee and Matthew Blakeslee. I highly recommend it. It really helps one understand why some of the "aiki" work that seems too soft to do what ot does actually works.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:59 AM   #107
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
High Hugh
I'm sorry but that is a fundemental fallicy. If I "try to throw" uke, inevitably I'll reach out of myself to make them go down. I'll compromise my structure trying to disrupt theirs.
There is no need to give up or extend out of...your center to take theirs. It doesn't work that way. Your sphere of influence -when properly trained-is huge. I extend my center- out to the end of a twelve foot spear. As you have seen and felt with a nine foot naginata crushing your sword down; did you think that the naginata guy's center had to be compromised or extended out from him, to do that?
It is the retaining of you center...that takes theirs in a different way than is normally felt or seen.

As I said earlier it is very difficult to have a conversation, when people who think they are doing aiki...are functioning on a foundationally different operating model. They are truly not the same, and it is the reason that internal people doing aiki (well those who are not full of shit anyway) truly are functioning different than you guys.
External movement without aiki-which is the majority of aikido- is fine no problem....just different.
Dan
I totally agree, Dan, Anytime someone tries to do something they are setting themselves up for failure. We really must just do it. I

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 01-24-2012 at 07:01 AM. Reason: restraint of keyboard

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Old 01-24-2012, 07:09 AM   #108
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There's an excellent book on how body mapping, the nuero system, proprioception etc works called The Body Has a Mind of Its Own by by Sandra Blakeslee and Matthew Blakeslee. I highly recommend it. It really helps one understand why some of the "aiki" work that seems too soft to do what ot does actually works.
Thanks Mr Ledyard, thats one of the books Ive read I just couldnt recall the title. For those interested in this topic there are some really interested free podcasts online by Sandra Blakeslee.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:24 AM   #109
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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I am just kidding I know you think I don't have a clue and that is okay.
Nope. I don't think that at all. And actually I think most of us would get along great in person. Most budo people (well we might find that it is an overwhelming majority) are really nice. I think those who survive what it takes to remain in budo are of a type. Sure there are the oddballs and weirdos, but I am willing to betcha they are extremely small in number. It takes tenacity, humility, perseverance, working with and taking guidance from..others, facing your own failures, over and over seemingly without end, and a host of other indicators, that mold, define and shape the people of budo.

Person to person communicating is completely different. You get a feel, you read people; everyone gets to flesh out views in a much better manner than the net. Case in point you getting a sense that our interactions are based on me thinking you don't have a clue..is totally false. BTW, both you and Ron were -not surprisingly-spoken well of by some mutual friends.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-24-2012 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:27 AM   #110
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Retaining center? Is that something new? I thought it was standard procedure.

Tohei will be smiling.

Throws or projections are natural paths when you know what those natural paths are and therefore there is no exerting will on anyone. Circles.

The power is in the circle already, why interfere with will?

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:36 AM   #111
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Retaining center? Is that something new? I thought it was standard procedure.
Tohei will be smiling.

Throws or projections are natural paths when you know what those natural paths are and therefore there is no exerting will on anyone. Circles.

The power is in the circle already, why interfere with will?

Regards.G.
Tohei was good but limited in his understanding in contrast to the larger picture.
Concepts are all over the place in Budo, Graham. It is watching, and feeling people in person where you and they get to reach an inescapable understanding of just who truly understands what comes out of their mouths and off their keyboards and who doesn't.
Which is why in budo certain people seek out contact /and others avoid it at all costs.
Overall this remains a very vibrant period in budo as so many of us are meeting and training together.
Dan
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:42 AM   #112
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Physics is testable against real world experiments. If your model adequately explains the experimental evidence, then it has value.
And if the results of real world experiments don't match my theories, I'll pull the "spiritual" card and declare said experimental evidence as wrong.

Quote:
But how do you "test" a purely spiritual pursuit?
Define "purely spiritual pursuit".

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-24-2012 at 07:44 AM.

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:00 AM   #113
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Many of the old guard Japanese Shihan were openly derisive of that idea; many times calling it nonsense and specifically stating that it was not aikido.
This is also an important point Endo often makes if I understand him correctly.
He asks, why we should learn something that relies on uke helping us doing it? To where should this practice lead? How will we be able to improve if practicing this way?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Quote:
Morihei Ueshiba explicitly stated in no uncertain terms, that aiki allows you to exert your will on your opponent. And he also constantly talked about control.
That's a new one on me.
Well, but this is the essence of what is to learn and do? Taking the center of the opponent, controlling him this way and "moving" his body using one's own center.

How do you mean this is new to you? What do you practice if not this?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-24-2012 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:04 AM   #114
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Tohei was good but limited in his understanding in contrast to the larger picture.
Concepts are all over the place in Budo, Graham. It is watching, and feeling people in person where you and they get to reach an inescapable understanding of just who truly understands what comes out of their mouths and off their keyboards and who doesn't.
Which is why in budo certain people seek out contact /and others avoid it at all costs.
Overall this remains a very vibrant period in budo as so many of us are meeting and training together.
Dan
No doubt concepts are all over the place, what's new?

Telling me watching and feeling people in person is like telling a fish how to swim.

Tohei limited? Good jokes.

I've never met any budo person who avoids meeting others at all costs so you lose me with such assertions. It's always been a vibrant period for those into it too, it's vibrant so long as you the individual is vibrant and that's about all really I would say.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:06 AM   #115
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

to throw or not to throw. what was the question again? are we not throw the throw? or are we throw not the throw? or are we throw not the not throw? ok, i think i just confused meself. i think i got slam too many times and a few marbles got loose. question, are we suppose to throw up or throw down?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:20 AM   #116
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Many of the old guard Japanese Shihan were openly derisive of that idea; many times calling it nonsense and specifically stating that it was not aikido.
That just about sums it up. They couldn't accept Aikido, Ueshibas Aikido, still holding on to the idea of winning, exerting will, etc. etc.

That's a phase of Aikido training that you describe above, yes. I see many here who think the perfection of such is therefore ultimate Aikido. It's new to many and quite rewarding so who am I to put it down? It's not ultimate or the 'secret' of Aikido though, just part of the journey. Enjoy it.

What's new to me is people believing Ueshiba saying you must exert your will on the opponent. I find that hilarious. Hardly universal or spiritual, more old school.

When you ask how do I do it then? Well let's just say I can do it how you do and you describe, was doing such twenty years ago. Self imposed will works up until it doesn't, then you move to the next phase.

Regards.G.

Last edited by akiy : 01-24-2012 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tags
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:23 AM   #117
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
to throw or not to throw. what was the question again? are we not throw the throw? or are we throw not the throw? or are we throw not the not throw? ok, i think i just confused meself. i think i got slam too many times and a few marbles got loose. question, are we suppose to throw up or throw down?
If you're feeling down then throw up.....

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:23 AM   #118
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
to throw or not to throw. what was the question again? are we not throw the throw? or are we throw not the throw? or are we throw not the not throw? ok, i think i just confused meself. i think i got slam too many times and a few marbles got loose. question, are we suppose to throw up or throw down?



Gee, I guess it depends on the person - when I think of your jokes, I have a tendency to throw up

Greg
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:24 AM   #119
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There's an excellent book on how body mapping, the nuero system, proprioception etc works called The Body Has a Mind of Its Own by by Sandra Blakeslee and Matthew Blakeslee. I highly recommend it. It really helps one understand why some of the "aiki" work that seems too soft to do what ot does actually works.
Very interesting book - somewhat of a 'dry' read, but interesting nonetheless.

Greg
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:31 AM   #120
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There's an excellent book on how body mapping, the nuero system, proprioception etc works called The Body Has a Mind of Its Own by by Sandra Blakeslee and Matthew Blakeslee. I highly recommend it. It really helps one understand why some of the "aiki" work that seems too soft to do what ot does actually works.
Not everybody liked it
How are we, as readers, to know when the science ends and the guessing begins?

Certainly not by looking up the Blakeslee's sources: they don't cite them. Sure, they quote neuroscientists, psychologists, and doctors in the text, but they don't ever explain when a quotation is backed by peer-reviewed research and when it's merely a hunch.
...
Much of the science in The Body Has a Mind of Its Own is rock-solid, but much of it is speculation. This book doesn't give readers enough information to appreciate the difference—that's not good science, and it's certainly not good science writing.
http://quarterlyconversation.com/the...akeslee-review

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:44 AM   #121
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm sorry but that is a fundemental fallicy. If I "try to throw" uke, inevitably I'll reach out of myself to make them go down. I'll compromise my structure trying to disrupt theirs. There is no need to give up or extend out of...your center to take theirs.
Right, I understand that. I can even do it on alternate Thursdays. I was really thinking about how to communicate this to someone who doesn't have the concepts or the body-feel to do it correctly. When I said "inevitably" I really meant "inevitably for a new guy who hasn't got the concepts". (And when I said "I" I really meant "that guy." This English stuffs iz hard.)

So this hypothetical new guy/gal thinks they're supposed to be throwing and puts a bunch of muscle into it and loses their own balance in the process. Telling them "stop trying to throw" at least pulls them back from what they're doing wrong. What you really mean is "stop trying to throw THAT WAY," but that's too complicated.

And then they go off and years later tell people "You're not supposed to try to throw, uke just falls down when the time is right." Or something.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:53 AM   #122
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
[/i][/b]

Gee, I guess it depends on the person - when I think of your jokes, I have a tendency to throw up

Greg
hey, that meant the aikiage stuffs i picked up from howie popkin actually worked over the internet! imagine that, his koshernage actually worked!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:55 AM   #123
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

@ Dan..Thank you....but how did you see what I deleted? Do you have magical mad computer skills?

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Old 01-24-2012, 09:04 AM   #124
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
That just about sums it up. They couldn't accept Aikido, Ueshibas Aikido, still holding on to the idea of winning, exerting will, etc. etc.

That's a phase of Aikido training that you describe above, yes. I see many here who think the perfection of such is therefore ultimate Aikido. It's new to many and quite rewarding so who am I to put it down? It's not ultimate or the 'secret' of Aikido though, just part of the journey. Enjoy it.

What's new to me is people believing Ueshiba saying you must exert your will on the opponent. I find that hilarious. Hardly universal or spiritual, more old school.

When you ask how do I do it then? Well let's just say I can do it how you do and you describe, was doing such twenty years ago. Self imposed will works up until it doesn't, then you move to the next phase.

Regards.G.
You continue to make these claims that you can do what we do (I do) and aikijujutsu people can do and that you understand it. All I have asked, is what the Aikiweb community asked of me, Mike and Ark. Prove it. You have never written anything coherent about it. Or showed up anywhere, or accepted us to test your claims. I think that speaks volumes. You would be wiser not to say these things, because they lead to obvious questions you could avoid.

Credibility
Ueshiba...with his new vision, could and did still move people against their will, and opposite to their line of attack, even harming them occasionally. He also moved connectedly and differently from normal movement. I think the greater aikido community does not understand what Ueshiabs meant by blending and I can point it out in his writing, discuss it, and show it. Again it is the reason the entire discussion of throwing is so skewed in favor of normal movement like judo or jujutsu.

Anyone who makes claims that they can do his aikido. Should feel different and be able to do things that very accomplished budoka consider unusual. Strangely, when I see or feel people who make these claims they cannot even move me (a complete nobody) and they feel like any other person I would find at the mall.

All things being equal, if someone claims they are doing Ueshiba's aikido and they are all but functionally useless and ineffectual...and when they move they sway to and fro, tip, send their own weight outside of their center and in general are just like everyone else... then something is drastically wrong with their logic and self awareness.

Person to person contact makes these things clear. That's why I advocate it with people who disagree. Some seek it out, others avoid it, because their claims of understanding and their voice, will last about one minute (if it takes that long) in a room with everyone watching.
Anyone can offer an opinion of the internet... and everyone gets an "A."
In person....everyone is sized up and graded and everyone knows the truth. With some it doesn't even take that, it is so obvious on video.
Dan

Last edited by akiy : 01-24-2012 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:06 AM   #125
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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@ Dan..Thank you....but how did you see what I deleted? Do you have magical mad computer skills?
Drafting at home...doing a code review, bored out of my mind, Aikiweb running in the background. You can tell when I am working at home. Did I mess up and use something you wanted deleted?
Dan
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