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Old 01-29-2012, 02:48 PM   #301
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Thank you, again, David for posting our links....that is very thoughtful of you.

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Old 01-29-2012, 02:55 PM   #302
sorokod
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Thank you, again, David for posting our links....that is very thoughtful of you.
You are quite welcome, I think these ground the statements.

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Old 01-29-2012, 03:12 PM   #303
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Just a little comment about cooperative training. Even with resistance, no type of training can teach you how to deal with real anger in a real attack; this is the part that collapses most people regardless of their level of expertise and years of training in the dojo - only when you experience real hostilities will you know whether you are a fight or flee type of person - those of the fight type will subconsciously respond with those skills that have been conditioned in them by their training, and those of the flee type will be useless regardless of how much training they have had.

I am not saying you need to go out and get in a fight, but until you do encounter a real attack, you will never know which type you are - it is just the way it is and people need to be honest with themselves so they don't put themselves in a situation expecting their non-realistic attack training to serve them well in a real hostile situation - it may or may not work out the way you think.

Personally, and I may be wrong here, but I believe the majority of those that focus on the love and spiritual aspects of Aikido, just won't have the emotional make up to deal with the anger and will find themselves in the 'flee' group - as I said, just my opinion, and of course there could be exceptions.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 01-29-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 03:38 PM   #304
Mario Tobias
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
I have my own personal interpretation about this statement but just want to "throw" it out there to see what others think.

cheers,
After 300 posts, I realized a small mistake only now. What I really meant was "The goal is not THE throw"

Just to tell you an interesting story (for me that is).

We were in a 3 day seminar led by a 6th dan. The classes were pretty intense. Before the conclusion of the seminar, the sensei told us to form several circles and we would play a "game".

2 people would come up in the middle of the circle and the objective of the game was similar to sumo rules. Whoever hits the mat first or gets pushed off the circle loses. The winner would stay and have another new challenger in the circle. It was a good opportunity to test your techniques but lo and behold during the "game" people, mudansha and yudansha alike, were trying to push and throw each other, no techniques were employed. It looked like whoever got tired first gave up and lost. This would go on and on. You could see Aikido was totally out the door. A relatively pretty simple test imho.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 01-29-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:08 PM   #305
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
, and those of the flee type will be useless regardless of how much training they have had.

Greg
Revised, okay so cooperative training is useless for a "real" fight, How about increasingly focused and specific cooperative training and also sped up?
There has to be a beginning for people never exposed to violence. I have seen people change from encouragement and team bulilding, so why not cooperative training?
Of course they have to be focused on the end, which is ultimately, not given a chance to flee, deal with the violence in an appropriate manner.
As soon as a person enters a boxing gym , having never been in the ring in their life, and does or does not get the snot beat out of them , means they have already changed something or decided to .
MHO

Last edited by Garth : 01-29-2012 at 04:22 PM.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:08 PM   #306
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Just a little comment about cooperative training. Even with resistance, no type of training can teach you how to deal with real anger in a real attack; this is the part that collapses most people regardless of their level of expertise and years of training in the dojo - only when you experience real hostilities will you know whether you are a fight or flee type of person - those of the fight type will subconsciously respond with those skills that have been conditioned in them by their training, and those of the flee type will be useless regardless of how much training they have had.
Sorry but I disagree.

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Old 01-29-2012, 04:32 PM   #307
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Just a little comment about cooperative training. Even with resistance, no type of training can teach you how to deal with real anger in a real attack; this is the part that collapses most people regardless of their level of expertise and years of training in the dojo - only when you experience real hostilities will you know whether you are a fight or flee type of person - those of the fight type will subconsciously respond with those skills that have been conditioned in them by their training, and those of the flee type will be useless regardless of how much training they have had.

I am not saying you need to go out and get in a fight, but until you do encounter a real attack, you will never know which type you are - it is just the way it is and people need to be honest with themselves so they don't put themselves in a situation expecting their non-realistic attack training to serve them well in a real hostile situation - it may or may not work out the way you think.

Personally, and I may be wrong here, but I believe the majority of those that focus on the love and spiritual aspects of Aikido, just won't have the emotional make up to deal with the anger and will find themselves in the 'flee' group - as I said, just my opinion, and of course there could be exceptions.

Greg
I would agree with all of the above with the caveate that the training can be gradual in a dojo setting to continually amp up the attacks offered (be adequately training people how to attack) while training adequate responses. I have lost track of the men who have cried in my dojo out of shear frustration at being continualy beaten and not being capable of issuing an adequate response with weapons and without until they reached a point where they could.
Ultimately I still think that you need to get out and go to places outside of your school. MMA schools are a good choice.
Most people in the martial arts have no real concept or preparedness for both serious and experienced violence. And there is little to nothing I have seen in the martial arts to prepare people for it.

Quote:
I am not saying you need to go out and get in a fight,
I...am...saying you need to get in a fight...repeatedly, or as close to it as you can get. And at the VERY least train tih someone who has. They can impart some vaualbel lessons about what is real and what is fantasy, and deal with higher percentage responses.

a. You will find most of the locks and throws you know won't work on someone who knows how to fight well.
b. a lost of your jujutsu doesn't work well when someone who knows what they are dong is kicking and punching the crap out of you. Case in point: you learn to judiciously approach someone and be mindful that when you are using your two hands to do something; lock, choke, grab to throw...their hands and feet are free to do a lot of damage to your person!
c. Every time you move to throw them- they are moving to set you up by pummeling you, throwing you and mounting you or just maybe knocking you out cold while you are standing there trying your schtick on them AND THEY DO NOT LOSE OR GIVE UP THEIR CENTER IN DOING ANY OF THE ABOVE.

Then of course you can go into LEO and military work with mostly untrained people. I had a guy on the internet going on and on about Martial artists not understanding real force on force (he was a cop). I told him just imagine the case you are making here.
You are openly telling all of us, the trouble you are having handling domestics and punks. And WE...don't get it. Now imagine handling people trained to take you apart.
I've trained a dozen cops in my life and the most stress they have EVER gotten in their lives was in our MMA school back in the 90's.
Dan
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:41 PM   #308
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I...am...saying you need to get in a fight...repeatedly, or as close to it as you can get. And at the VERY least train tih someone who has. They can impart some vaualbel lessons about what is real and what is fantasy, and deal with higher percentage responses.
Exactly , and most Aikido dojos would most likely instantly lose half their membership instantly.
first time someone gets hit in the face
People who consistently have such advice and experience are among the "graybeards" in most dojos.
Been around the block, etc
Not the newly minted Shodans, who are still wet behind the ears and full of the experience of themselves.
Now changing the atmosphere and getting them to share it would be a sea change.!!!!

Last edited by akiy : 01-29-2012 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:24 PM   #309
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Revised, okay so cooperative training is useless for a "real" fight, How about increasingly focused and specific cooperative training and also sped up?
There has to be a beginning for people never exposed to violence. I have seen people change from encouragement and team bulilding, so why not cooperative training?
Of course they have to be focused on the end, which is ultimately, not given a chance to flee, deal with the violence in an appropriate manner.
As soon as a person enters a boxing gym , having never been in the ring in their life, and does or does not get the snot beat out of them , means they have already changed something or decided to .
MHO
Hi Greg, nice name by the way; I like it

I see you have made a significant revision to your first post- no problem with the revision or the first post - However, as retired military, I was going to have some fun with your original military comment - not an issue, I will save that wisdom for a later day

Anyway, in keeping with the theme of this thread, IMO the "The goal not to throw" is closely related to "Fight or Flee" (now that should take care of the thread drift police )

The basis of my point was that in general there are two types of people - those that respond to an attack with a fight back attitude and those that respond with a flee or back off attitude. IMO, I do not see those with the flee attitude being drawn to a martial art or the military - however, as I said, there are exceptions based on the goals of the MA. Can the type of response with an individual change? Yes, I think so, but it can not be totally accomplished by dojo training regardless of the increasing levels of intensity of simulated real attacks; that does not hurt, but is not totally effective. The only true test is with a real hostile incident - a sink or swim environment.

Greg
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:25 PM   #310
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sorry but I disagree.
Hey, Demetrio, no reason to be sorry - you are entitled to your opinion - be proud of it

Greg
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:38 PM   #311
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post

I...am...saying you need to get in a fight...repeatedly, or as close to it as you can get. And at the VERY least train tih someone who has. They can impart some vaualbel lessons about what is real and what is fantasy, and deal with higher percentage responses.
Dan
Well, being the gregarious person that you are, I can see why you would say this - however, I strongly do not recommend someone go out and do that. But with that said, I will say that, IME, the best teacher is experience and there is no substitute! People need to make their own decisions based upon their own conclusions, and be held 100% responsible for their actions. (IOW, I do not want see my name on a lawsuit as a certain percent culpable because some 'idgit' went and got his teeth knocked out because he read one of my posts )

Overall, I think you got a good perspective on this stuff - keep up the good work!

Greg
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:43 PM   #312
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There is no....mutual...anything; terms or practice if you cannot display his power and control.
Sorry, Dan, I'm trying to understand, but I'm having a hard time following: Reading what you described about gradually increasing intensity seems like a case where cooperative training is being practiced. It's not overly-cooperative where anything one person trys gets a pass, but in order to let someone work on something using your body as the "target" strikes me as cooperative in nature. Taking into account the other myriad goals individuals might have, I'm confused how there isn't anything mutual going on if you don't already know how to move like O Sensei.
Aything you would be willing to add would be appreciated!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #313
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Sorry, Dan, I'm trying to understand, but I'm having a hard time following: Reading what you described about gradually increasing intensity seems like a case where cooperative training is being practiced. It's not overly-cooperative where anything one person trys gets a pass, but in order to let someone work on something using your body as the "target" strikes me as cooperative in nature. Taking into account the other myriad goals individuals might have, I'm confused how there isn't anything mutual going on if you don't already know how to move like O Sensei.
Aything you would be willing to add would be appreciated!
Take care,
Matt
I guess it all depends on what you mean by cooperative...

For instance, if I want to be challenged in my training and for my partner to allow me to feel what I am doing, is it cooperative if they fling themselves to the floor the instant I twitch a muscle? I would say that is being very uncooperative actually.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:09 PM   #314
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I guess it all depends on what you mean by cooperative...

For instance, if I want to be challenged in my training and for my partner to allow me to feel what I am doing, is it cooperative if they fling themselves to the floor the instant I twitch a muscle? I would say that is being very uncooperative actually.
I completely agree...that's counterproductive for what I want too. I base cooperation on what the individual goal is. The Aikido training system seems to generally go something like this: you attack me in a way that is on the cusp of my ability so I can advance my ability. We generally know what we're going to work on and while we might strip away this or that "rule" there is generally a form involved to shape the focus. We might practice randori to work on something closer to free-form, but that's based on the purpose. What I see as non-cooperative practice is practice in which aite never lets nage work on something. I think both are valuable...and for highly advance students, the latter is probably a lot more useful.
Having resistance doesn't mean it's non-cooperative, in my understanding of the term; just as having no resistance doesn't mean it's cooperative.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:15 PM   #315
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
There is no....mutual...anything; terms or practice if you cannot display his power and control.
Sorry, Dan, I'm trying to understand, but I'm having a hard time following: Reading what you described about gradually increasing intensity seems like a case where cooperative training is being practiced. It's not overly-cooperative where anything one person trys gets a pass, but in order to let someone work on something using your body as the "target" strikes me as cooperative in nature. Taking into account the other myriad goals individuals might have, I'm confused how there isn't anything mutual going on if you don't already know how to move like O Sensei.
Aything you would be willing to add would be appreciated!
Take care,
Matt
Hi Mat
You had discussed mutual practice as if it were something between all aikido people in the midst of a discussion between Graham and I.
You then quote my reply I wrote to Graham and assigned it to a completely different discussion I was having with the two Gregs.
Huh?

Sigh...lets clean it up. I don't want to keep going over the same ground Let's use bold for the talking points and underline the issues!!

1. Mary and Ron do what they do and are clear and make no outrageous claims. They are usually well balanced in what they say.

2. I make outrageous claims-that I understand what Ueshiba was talking about and doing with aiki... I get called on it all the time to show and I have been judged from shodan to shihan all over the world

3. Graham makes outrageous claims- that he understands what Ueshiba was talking about and doing with aiki yet he has no one from no where stating he feels like anything more than your average joe, and he produces videos showing he moves with a disconnected body

I contend the following- hopefully for the last time
a. If you show up on an international forum and say you know what Ueshiba was doing and talking about-b. you damn well should get called on it.
c. You should be able to define it, discuss it and do it.
d. If you've got nothing to back it up...that's your problem and not the community who calls you on your rhetoric.
e. Being called on it is good for the community and good for you.
I hope that was clear.

And hats off to Graham that even with being challenged on these things, he keeps it in perspective and doesn't take challenges to his knowledge and skills as a personal challenge to him as a person. We could all take a lesson from him in how to respond. I can't tell you how many times I have read a reply from him-where I was contending with him..and even though I totally disagreed, I sat there and said..."Good Job man!!!"
_____________________________________________

My thoughts on the gradual increase of stress in martial arts is a totally different topic

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-29-2012 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:56 PM   #316
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Greg, nice name by the way; I like it

I see you have made a significant revision to your first post- no problem with the revision or the first post - However, as retired military, I was going to have some fun with your original military comment - not an issue, I will save that wisdom for a later day

Anyway, in keeping with the theme of this thread, IMO the "The goal not to throw" is closely related to "Fight or Flee" (now that should take care of the thread drift police )

The basis of my point was that in general there are two types of people - those that respond to an attack with a fight back attitude and those that respond with a flee or back off attitude. IMO, I do not see those with the flee attitude being drawn to a martial art or the military - however, as I said, there are exceptions based on the goals of the MA. Can the type of response with an individual change? Yes, I think so, but it can not be totally accomplished by dojo training regardless of the increasing levels of intensity of simulated real attacks; that does not hurt, but is not totally effective. The only true test is with a real hostile incident - a sink or swim environment.

Greg
Yes it is a good name It actually means vigilant (since Japanese have a problem with R I think or maybe Tozando sold me a bill of goods)and is inscribed that way on my hakama
So I will be keeping an EYE on you Greg
I just forgot to leave the military comment in thats all, after I reread where you said "Cooperative"
So I understand the military is not mostly cooperative training, but you must admit that there is some, used in conjunction with confidence building. Used to be total immersion in the sink or swim atmosphere and I am sure still that way for special service otherwise anyone would be special forces. And I am sure some wound up on permanent KP duty. Combat has certain necessities to it.
But after the tearing down, there is a buildup process as the confidence increases.
I am not saying as Dan likes to say, that drill instructors start walking around saying "oh you are great" when you "actually suck", but you are increasingly allowed to succed as your skills and confidence grows, Otherwise the all volunteer army would have too high a washout rate. No???
Cowardice (Flee /Self/Fear preservation drive whatever you want to call it) can be weeded out if need be and with a combo of techniques mentioned here, over ridden(rewired)
I can at 47 remember vividly the first time I got my clock cleaned by an older kid.
I was taking a purely romantic heroic stance against an older street tuff based on principle (somewhere between 8-10 years old) Completely unaware of the circumstance( and I was always big for my age size wise)(not mentally though). I must tell you that prudence about the circumstance entered into my thought process after that time. Not that I have run away from fights or sought them out afterwoods, just slower to anger that all. Fighting or Fleeing , all though I cant remember doing the other literally, are worlds that some people can and do switch back and forth between.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:40 PM   #317
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Mat
You had discussed mutual practice as if it were something between all aikido people in the midst of a discussion between Graham and I.
You then quote my reply I wrote to Graham and assigned it to a completely different discussion I was having with the two Gregs.
Huh?
I'll make this my last post on this vein of the topic so I don't muddle it up any further (sorry), but I commented on David Orange's remarks to Graham about using different terms; Graham said he liked the idea of mutual interest in "cooperative training;" and then you commented on his remarks that there is "no mutual...etc." I missed the context of your comments to Graham, sorry about that.

Quote:
I contend the following- hopefully for the last time
a. If you show up on an international forum and say you know what Ueshiba was doing and talking about-b. you damn well should get called on it.
c. You should be able to define it, discuss it and do it.
d. If you've got nothing to back it up...that's your problem and not the community who calls you on your rhetoric.
e. Being called on it is good for the community and good for you.
I hope that was clear.

And hats off to Graham that even with being challenged on these things, he keeps it in perspective and doesn't take challenges to his knowledge and skills as a personal challenge to him as a person. We could all take a lesson from him in how to respond. I can't tell you how many times I have read a reply from him-where I was contending with him..and even though I totally disagreed, I sat there and said..."Good Job man!!!"
I absolutely agree! Nicely put!
Captain Myopia signing out.
(Thank you, Dan, and everyone else!)

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:50 PM   #318
Lee Salzman
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Sorry, Dan, I'm trying to understand, but I'm having a hard time following: Reading what you described about gradually increasing intensity seems like a case where cooperative training is being practiced. It's not overly-cooperative where anything one person trys gets a pass, but in order to let someone work on something using your body as the "target" strikes me as cooperative in nature. Taking into account the other myriad goals individuals might have, I'm confused how there isn't anything mutual going on if you don't already know how to move like O Sensei.
Aything you would be willing to add would be appreciated!
Take care,
Matt
I think the idea here is simply this: a connected body (which is not aiki, but presumably is a stepping stone to it) is the most fundamental aspect of cooperation, harmony, love, mutual, yada yada, bla bla. If you can't even make, say, your foot cooperate with your hip or your hand, then how is your body going to even begin to cooperate with another body?

You can't be a hornet's nest of unconscious bad movement habits, or you will take your own body apart in movement, well before anyone else does it to you, or you can even attempt to do it to anyone else. In a sense, every bad disconnected movement habit that comes out as a result of you doing something to them is actually, counter-intuitively, them controlling you. You have to practice erasing that a lot in solo practice, dojo practice won't efficiently fix it by itself.

There was some video of O'Sensei with Terry Dobson where he states something along the lines of "We must put our own houses in order..." So, now, if you haven't, and you talk of harmony, what then?
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:35 PM   #319
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Having resistance doesn't mean it's non-cooperative, in my understanding of the term; just as having no resistance doesn't mean it's cooperative.
Agree. FWIW, for me non-cooperative training is one wherein uke closes an opening once it has been found out so that the center can't be taken. It is the burden of nage to continually look for openings in uke so that a technique can be done. Similar to uke, it is his job to continually close his openings and find weaknesses in nage for a possible reversal.

I'm thinking randori and jiyu waza still fall into cooperative training since nage performs techniques, sure, but is it based on uke's openings? Does nage understand this? You dont know if the technique is valid or not. And uke doesn't put much effort in closing those openings such that nage will have a hard time performing a technique.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 01-29-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:27 PM   #320
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Re: "The goal is not the throw"

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I think the idea here is simply this: a connected body (which is not aiki, but presumably is a stepping stone to it) is the most fundamental aspect of cooperation, harmony, love, mutual, yada yada, bla bla. If you can't even make, say, your foot cooperate with your hip or your hand, then how is your body going to even begin to cooperate with another body?

You can't be a hornet's nest of unconscious bad movement habits, or you will take your own body apart in movement, well before anyone else does it to you, or you can even attempt to do it to anyone else. In a sense, every bad disconnected movement habit that comes out as a result of you doing something to them is actually, counter-intuitively, them controlling you. You have to practice erasing that a lot in solo practice, dojo practice won't efficiently fix it by itself.

There was some video of O'Sensei with Terry Dobson where he states something along the lines of "We must put our own houses in order..." So, now, if you haven't, and you talk of harmony, what then?
That makes a lot of sense to me, thank you, Lee! And in retrospect I don't know why I couldn't pick that up from what Dan was saying. One more reason why it's best for me to read more than write here...or take more time reading, at the very least. The internet is too damned convenient.
My only other comment before I go is that while I personally love that quote, and agree with it, I don't think it's a strict hierarchy or I don't think I would ever leave the house. I am all about focusing on self-improvement and building myself up so I can be of use to the world around me in a positive way, but practicality seems to demand that sometimes I move on to the next step before mastering the one before it.
So to relate this back to the thread OP (rephrased): the goal is not the throw, it's that which the throw is a part: the whole...But each day we should probably begin and end by taking a good hard look at our own home.
Cheers y'all!

p.s. I like that description, Mario! Thank you!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:41 AM   #321
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Doesn't this suppose one person's meaning is applied by another?
Well, except that Mary's comments don't clearly establish that she doesn't mean exactly the same. She has rejected "testing" in the discussion...so it does begin to sound like purely cooperative following of form with a guaranteed fall.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
...I personally like "cooperative practice" because it points to what we're getting at (I believe) in Aikido: mutual beneficence; mutual improvement in every way we can manage.
Thoughts?
Well, I said above that we have to cooperate in many ways just to end up on the mat together. Budo is a social creation for the mutual benefits you describe--whether only for a very small group of members or for society as a whole. No social activity can survive if it is not very much cooperative, but if there is no social tension within the group, something is wrong. It's against human nature, so it can't be a very good group.

Budo cooperates for the purpose of mutually developing martial arts knowledge and ability in the participants. Not all budo is necessarily directly relevant to self defense. Kyudo, for instance, probably has no more than attitude and mental state to contribute to a self defense situation, but it is budo.

Aikido, on the other hand, is a "fighting" art, even if the technique is non-resistance leading into a joint lock or throw. That basic nature is well established. And the basic method of developing that in Ueshiba's time and in all his students up to the late 1940s, was to train the non-resisting technique against a powerful attack and immediate counter attack if the attacker is not instantly controlled.

The resistance is the only way to sharpen the aikido tool of non-resisting control of the attacker.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:39 AM   #322
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I think the idea here is simply this: a connected body (which is not aiki, but presumably is a stepping stone to it) is the most fundamental aspect of cooperation, harmony, love, mutual, yada yada, bla bla. If you can't even make, say, your foot cooperate with your hip or your hand, then how is your body going to even begin to cooperate with another body?

You can't be a hornet's nest of unconscious bad movement habits, or you will take your own body apart in movement, well before anyone else does it to you, or you can even attempt to do it to anyone else. In a sense, every bad disconnected movement habit that comes out as a result of you doing something to them is actually, counter-intuitively, them controlling you. You have to practice erasing that a lot in solo practice, dojo practice won't efficiently fix it by itself.

There was some video of O'Sensei with Terry Dobson where he states something along the lines of "We must put our own houses in order..." So, now, if you haven't, and you talk of harmony, what then?
Completely true Lee
It is step one. All else fails with the failure of this. What does it say then, that we are watching Japanese and foreign "expert" teachers move ... and they are as disconnected as their students! This isn't even kindergarten, it's baby steps and they still can't do it and they are on forums and in seminars talking about Ueshiba's power and aiki?? And now some of them are teaching internals?? Unbelievable.

There is almost no one teaching connection much less more advanced stuff in any meaningful way. I note that certain people always default to established budo, to find this stuff, even when it is contrary to so much personal experience. Even when I see traditional people who have been completely taken apart by methods they do not understand, they go right back to searching...in the traditional arts with Asian teachers.
It's why I prefer to first meet in public so that years from now when they start telling people they got this from Mr Big shot Japanese guy....and they will.... in order to boost his reputation and establish theirs! We will all remember them...and how much they sucked with Mr. Big shot Japanese teacher's lousy advice, and just who and what fixed them.

Dan
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:44 AM   #323
renshin
 
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Talking Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's also what Dan says. And what Ueshiba said, what Mifune said, what Sanpo said. Sugino said it, too. (Did he ever.)
Oh yes, Sugino (Yoshio) most certainly did.

BTW, my teacher tells a beautiful story about Minoru Mochizuki sensei and Yoshio Sugino sensei meeting up when they were both in their 80s. This was in Japan in the 1990s, if I recall the story correctly.

The two legends had been friends since before the war, as they were both students of O-Sensei Ueshiba and Jigoro Kano. They also did Katori Shinto Ryu together.

At this particular time, the two masters decided to do some kata from the omote dachi of the Katori Shinto Ryu. Mochizuki sensei had always been a sturdy guy and Sugino a small and slender type. Still so. They proceeded to do the kata, and you could see the masters challenging each other in a friendly manner.

At one point, they got into a position crossing swords, where Mochizuki was able to push his friend backwards forcefully. The smaller Sugino rushed backwards and fell. All of the onlookers (students of both teachers) looked on in horror. They thought Sugino sensei was surely going to be seriously hurt. As I mentioned, he was well into his eighties. The tiny old man surprised them all - did a beautiful ushiro ukemi and stood to his feet. Sword in hand. And with the biggest grin ever on his face, stroking his long beard, he said: "Let's do that again!"

You are never too old or too wise to accept a challenge - and these masters certainly did not shy away from one

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

Blog: My Life In Budo

Aikido Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
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Old 01-30-2012, 06:26 AM   #324
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

The mere fact that people here have trained with people with "power" and "aiki" and not required hospital visits afterwards means that there is "cooperation" in training going on here.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:23 AM   #325
renshin
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
The mere fact that people here have trained with people with "power" and "aiki" and not required hospital visits afterwards means that there is "cooperation" in training going on here.
There are more ways to manifest power than to hurt someone (physically, that is)

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

Blog: My Life In Budo

Aikido Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
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