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Old 01-26-2012, 02:20 PM   #226
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What Dan and Marc are talking about is the essence of difference for me. If testing and competing with others is important to what you are doing, to me it makes it just like everything else. Why not just do Karate or kick boxing?
Aikido is different because it is not about winning.
It's only as different as the people practicing it make it, but I get the impression you're talking more about mental attitude/affectation (a very good one that leads to a holistic well-being) whereas Dan is talking more about physical attitude/effects. Both are important, but have different points of emphasis and function.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-26-2012 at 02:26 PM.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:55 PM   #227
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It's only as different as the people practicing it make it, but I get the impression you're talking more about mental attitude/affectation (a very good one that leads to a holistic well-being) whereas Dan is talking more about physical attitude/effects.

Both are important, but have different points of emphasis and function.
No...they don't.
You cannot do what I am talking about without serious...very serious mind/body connection, easily involving spirit and a projection more easily experienced at the end of a 12' spear. It is the mind that effects and moves the physical. First defined in the Chinese arts and all but hand copied by Ueshiba in his writing.
Because the type of aikido training we are discussing has a palpable and real effect as opposed the aiki bunnies who can do little, people tend to underscore some sort of imagined difference as we are physical and they are ki bunnies all in their nice meditative space.
It is my view that this does a diservice to an age old practice. When people knew what they were actually talking about and wanted and needed power...they were talking about internal training and the mind controlling ki to produce physical power. Ueshiba continually discussed the power in aiki, not just the spiritual aspect. In fact he said aiki informed his faith.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-26-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #228
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

@Marc...apoligize for what...I would be happy to if I meant to offend but I didn't so if you took offense from me disageeing with I suggest you get a thicker skin.

@ Dan...I think you could spend some time really trying to understand aikido that I speak of....you may be totally right about being able to move me...and you may still not understand what I am trying to say...(rather badly it seems) ;o)

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Old 01-26-2012, 03:27 PM   #229
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
@Marc...apoligize for what...I would be happy to if I meant to offend but I didn't so if you took offense from me disageeing with I suggest you get a thicker skin.

@ Dan...I think you could spend some time really trying to understand aikido that I speak of....you may be totally right about being able to move me...and you may still not understand what I am trying to say...(rather badly it seems) ;o)
Well duh, I can't when you won't s'plain Lucy!!!
I know we disagree. But in all honesty I think I have been doing the majority of the heavy lifting in at least trying to describe how I see things and what I do. I think most of these things can can only be resolved face to face and then in more informed discussions over dinner. But alas, I also realize many people don't want to do that for a host of reasons.
Hey, In light of the oft times mean spirited discource seen in budo debates, may I say once again I appreciate that we can disagree without having to tear each other apart over a hobby.
Dan
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:06 PM   #230
Marc Abrams
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
@Marc...apoligize for what...I would be happy to if I meant to offend but I didn't so if you took offense from me disageeing with I suggest you get a thicker skin.

@ Dan...I think you could spend some time really trying to understand aikido that I speak of....you may be totally right about being able to move me...and you may still not understand what I am trying to say...(rather badly it seems) ;o)
Mary:

My skin is very, very thick. I could care less if you agree or disagree with me. What I take offense to is the deliberate distortion of what I said. If it was unintended, than a simple apology and acknowledgement to that is called for. If it was intended, a simple apology and acknowledgment to that is called for. We can all agree to disagree all day long, but distorting information and creating words and impressions that were never there is simply not good debating, dialogue or anything else positive or constructive for that matter.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:35 PM   #231
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
On the other hand, from my perspective, it looks to me like "ordinary" aikido people are all about "winning" every time: they never lose. They never experience what it is to lose, which is a vital lesson for human life.

To me, the "fact" that aikido people "always win" is one of the most corrupting influences in the activity (which at that point can no longer be called an art). In judo, you get humbled a lot and even though you win from time to time, you never forget that you can lose. And that represents death.
I started to respond to this, then realized that I already have:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19941

Short version: to get better, you have to be willing to fail.

Katherine
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:41 PM   #232
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
cut it out you guys with these neutering stuffs! you folks give the creep. the topic is about throwing, not neutering. of course, if there are techniques that can neuter while throwing, then i would like to know. it could come in handy. wonder what such throw would be like. maybe involving a pull-up at the end of the throw as Ellis suggested in another thread. i meant you can just grab the other bugger's gi pants and pull up with a twist at the end, sort of an atomic wedgie koshinage. just thinking out loud on how to go about doing a neutering koshinage. which got me to think about neuter aikido. would such aikido style only have techniques for the purpose of neutering? and wondering if they have technique like yankyo? wonder what sort of warm-up routines such aikido style practice.
You are warped! - but I luv it!

Greg
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:23 PM   #233
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

There has been a lot of far out metaphors and analogies going on here that I am not even going to dare jump into - IMO, most are pretty much off base from the topic.

However, I would like to comment on the 'testing' point - IMO, testing has absolutely nothing to do with competition, winning, losing, or ranking - it is simply a procedure to see where you are at with something and to find out what is working and what is not - and, it can be performed in a cooperative environment - you just need to set up the parameters of the test with both parties so each knows their role in the procedure. For example, testing your response to a real attack with the intent to grab your arm and throw you to the ground - uke comes in at full speed and full power and nage tests his response. That is not competitive and there is no winner or loser, but it can be real and a good test of your conditioned level of training. Another neat test is to randomly attack someone full force with no notice to see what their initial response is - a good test for awareness and conditioning because there is no time to think; of course, the attacker should back off if the response is not able to protect from the attack

Greg
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:01 PM   #234
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

@ Dan:
There may be no overt reference to winning. It is a feeling I get when I read your posts. Testing in our style is to provide a reference to a dependable feeling. I think I am missing something in your language. We might be saying the same things.

I would really like to have coversations about it without the constant pressure to do what you do. I think Graham does great at trying to relate to you guys, but it seems like you just make fun of him. It seems like you are trying to shut him up. So I don't write much about it anymore.

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Old 01-26-2012, 07:04 PM   #235
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I started to respond to this, then realized that I already have:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19941

Short version: to get better, you have to be willing to fail.
I thnk it's really unhealthy to create a situation for people by which they can never fail because they never have to reach to the depths and pull out the best they have.

And I think it's even worse to promote such people to even shodan--much less sandan, yodan, etc.

I think you have to be willing to fail and also to experience failure when you were giving all you had. That's the kind of thing that makes a person turn inward and face the real truth.

Giving people authority along with the belief that they will always win is just a recipe for disaster. And the sad thing is, the same recipe is taught to strings of students, so the disasters just go on and on.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:16 PM   #236
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Nice article, by the way.

David

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Old 01-26-2012, 10:12 PM   #237
Janet Rosen
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I thnk it's really unhealthy to create a situation for people by which they can never fail because they never have to reach to the depths and pull out the best they have.

And I think it's even worse to promote such people to even shodan--much less sandan, yodan, etc.

I think you have to be willing to fail and also to experience failure when you were giving all you had. That's the kind of thing that makes a person turn inward and face the real truth.

David
Yes. That is not "competition" testing. It is reality testing. It applies WHATever your own personal goals for training are because you get to compare what you do to what you hope or intend to do. If you keep succeeding then you aren't challenging yourself to actually identify your weaknesses and keep learning.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:45 PM   #238
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Yes. That is not "competition" testing. It is reality testing. It applies WHATever your own personal goals for training are because you get to compare what you do to what you hope or intend to do. If you keep succeeding then you aren't challenging yourself to actually identify your weaknesses and keep learning.
Extensive testing is required of anything before we entrust our money to it. How much more so if our lives may depend on it? Why would that even be seen as competition?

Cheers.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2012, 10:51 PM   #239
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
I have my own personal interpretation about this statement but just want to "throw" it out there to see what others think.
George Ledyard's thread on "Gus Learns to Fly" just reminded me of Sokaku Takeda's statement: "Aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance, and win without fighting."

So he didn't go in to throw or to pin. And he was focused on winning, make no mistake--though he knew how to do it without fighting.

And that's worth thinking about.

Regards,

David

Last edited by akiy : 01-26-2012 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-27-2012, 12:12 AM   #240
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No...they don't.
You cannot do what I am talking about without serious...very serious mind/body connection, easily involving spirit and a projection more easily experienced at the end of a 12' spear. It is the mind that effects and moves the physical. First defined in the Chinese arts and all but hand copied by Ueshiba in his writing.
Because the type of aikido training we are discussing has a palpable and real effect as opposed the aiki bunnies who can do little, people tend to underscore some sort of imagined difference as we are physical and they are ki bunnies all in their nice meditative space.
It is my view that this does a diservice to an age old practice. When people knew what they were actually talking about and wanted and needed power...they were talking about internal training and the mind controlling ki to produce physical power. Ueshiba continually discussed the power in aiki, not just the spiritual aspect. In fact he said aiki informed his faith.
Dan
Maybe that was poorly worded then, but nowhere did I say or mean to imply you are less meditative. I didn't even talk about the training. I said (or tried to) that the things you're "talking" about are both valid in their own right; both describe important parts of Aikido. From what little (very little) I saw of your training it was as meditative as anything I've ever seen; in fact there was almost no "getting physical."
When it comes to talking about aikido, it is my impression that you tend to "talk" more about the role of physical potency and that she tends to "talk" more about the role of attitude (in the psychological sense), compared to each other.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:17 AM   #241
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No...they don't.
You cannot do what I am talking about without serious...very serious mind/body connection, easily involving spirit and a projection more easily experienced at the end of a 12' spear. It is the mind that effects and moves the physical. First defined in the Chinese arts and all but hand copied by Ueshiba in his writing.
Because the type of aikido training we are discussing has a palpable and real effect as opposed the aiki bunnies who can do little, people tend to underscore some sort of imagined difference as we are physical and they are ki bunnies all in their nice meditative space.
It is my view that this does a diservice to an age old practice. When people knew what they were actually talking about and wanted and needed power...they were talking about internal training and the mind controlling ki to produce physical power. Ueshiba continually discussed the power in aiki, not just the spiritual aspect. In fact he said aiki informed his faith.
Dan
Maybe that was poorly worded then, but nowhere did I say or mean to imply you are less meditative. I didn't even talk about the training. I said (or tried to) that the things you're "talking" about are both valid in their own right; both important parts of Aikido. From what little (very little) I saw of your training it was as meditative as anything I've ever seen; in fact there was almost no "getting physical."
When it comes to talking about Aikido, it is my impression that you tend to "talk" more about the role of physical potency and that she tends to "talk" more about the role of attitude (in the psychological sense), compared to each other.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:30 AM   #242
phitruong
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You could ask Ashida Kim about "Monkey Steals the Peach" technique.

Looks legit.
now that's a technique worthy of consideration. why couldn't aikido has technique with cool name like that? we only have technique number 1, 2, 3, etc and even more lame such as wrist turn, four corners, entering, ...etc. so lame! why couldn't we have techniques with name like "jade lady plays with ken and chokes out barbie", "buddha attendant warrior pounding the crap out politicians", "immortal points to the lady bathroom", "investment lawyer using a hoe", "in yo mama face" and so on.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:35 AM   #243
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post

They cut the worst pictures out! Ashida Kim eating the unwashed peaches.........
sheesh Marc! i was eating a peach cobbler! now i have to throw on some ice-cream to wash out the taste. you are messing with my diet to keep my girlish figure in order to do a good koshinage!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:09 AM   #244
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
@ Dan:
There may be no overt reference to winning. It is a feeling I get when I read your posts. Testing in our style is to provide a reference to a dependable feeling. I think I am missing something in your language. We might be saying the same things.
We probably are.
It appears from watching and what you write that you guys are already trying to do what I am doing on a certain level. I think the only one who would be surprised ...are you guys. I am fairly certain that what you are striving for with your "correct feeling" model is what we do and would be instantly recognized by you as correct feeling. Honestly from watching your practice on film I think you would be delighted with the more definitive langage and training processes we have. But here is the thing, it isn't a pressure to do what ...I...do. You are your own people.
This constant reference to he/ she/ me/ we is what screws things up. It isn't about us as individuals. It's about what Ueshiba did. Anyone who thinks they are out their blazing a new trail is a fool. That would include me too. Ueshiba defined Aikido. Ueshiba knew and discussed concepts that span generations and cultures.
a. we are either trying to understand the physical technology that these people developed
b. we are reinventing the wheel in very haphazard ways.

Graham
I would like to correct a statement you made about Graham relating to us.
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I think Graham does great at trying to relate to you guys, but it seems like you just make fun of him. It seems like you are trying to shut him up.
Graham does not do any great job in relating to us guys....and I am not making fun of him.
When I read Graham telling us he knows what Ueshiba did, and knows and can do what we are talking about and surpassed it twenty years ago...and then he appears on film doing what he does and moving the way he moves (this in in front of many Aikido teachers here)....well it begs questions. I don't say it...he did. It is easy to avoid this stuff by not making claims you cannot support. It draws attention to you of your own accord.

Posting standards
Turning away from Graham I would observe that, if you know that you feel like any average Joe, and your aiki is not anything extraordinary on an international scale ...what the hell are you thinking appearing on an international forum and saying it is, in front of people who have either been judged to have exactly those qualities or in front of others who have felt and seen those qualities.

One thing is for sure, there is an incredible amount of talk by people who claim they understand what Ueshiba was talking about and doing...And then when you see and feel them, they both move and feel like any other Shodan, Sandan, what have you. I am simply challenging those in the community-including me- who say these things to either put up or shut up, or at least have a better sense of balance about what it is they do.

To me and seemingly ONLY to me, is how evident the understanding is even in this single thread. In the talking points on throwing, most of it has nothing to do with aiki. The cornerstone for aikido's approach to throwing anyone.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-27-2012 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 01-27-2012, 10:12 AM   #245
Mark Freeman
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We probably are.
It appears from watching and what you write that you guys are already trying to do what I am doing on a certain level. I think the only one who would be surprised ...are you guys. I am fairly certain that what you are striving for with your "correct feeling" model is what we do and would be instantly recognized by you as correct feeling. Honestly from watching your practice on film I think you would be delighted with the more definitive langage and training processes we have. But here is the thing, it isn't a pressure to do what ...I...do. You are your own people.
Hi Dan

to Mary

I come from a training paradigm similar to yourself and Ron, in that, a high proportion of my time has been developing 'correct feeling' a la the Tohei line. I thouroughly enjoy continuing to learn and teach this model. My own goal has been, since I started, is to become more co-ordinated in mind and body, and my 'style' of aikido has served me well in this endeavour. After 20 years of practice, I feel that I am making good progress.

I have trained with Dan each time he has been in the UK and will do so again, either when he is here or I come to the US. What I have gained from Dan is invaluable to me. I consider myself to be a good aikido teacher, able to pass on what I have learnt well. The 'stuff' that I have gained from his training, has allowed me to experiment and practice with a level beyond where I already was (which modestly, I thought, was pretty high, as I have an excellent teacher). Where before I was painting with a palette of colours, the added ingredient of this work has given all of the colours more vibrancy and depth. The pictures I paint now are more impressive.

My focus has shifted from what I do to the uke - blend with, lead, follow, throw -almost exclsively to, what I do within myself - my internal set up - mind/intent/dantien(one point) and the movement created internally, how far that extends out from me, and how sophisticated can I get it.. I still do all of the blending, leading etc, but now it is done from such a solid place that the result is truly compelling.

Honestly, to have someone grab both of your wrists, and to see the look on their face as they move in a direction of 'my' choosing, whilst I am standing stock still, is a picture I don't think I'll ever get tired of looking at. To get to this point takes time, effort, patience, focus, work and a good training model. It's fun to learn and fun to do. When Ueshiba said aikido should be practiced in a joyful atmosphere or words very close to that, I'm sure he would be happy with your dojo and mine, and although Dan does not teach aikido, Ueshiba would be happy with the atmosphere in his, he 'may' even say 'this is my aikido' (this will never be known, and will provide laughter and tears for years to come).

regards,

Mark

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Old 01-27-2012, 11:50 AM   #246
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
@ Dan:
There may be no overt reference to winning. It is a feeling I get when I read your posts. Testing in our style is to provide a reference to a dependable feeling. I think I am missing something in your language. We might be saying the same things.

I would really like to have coversations about it without the constant pressure to do what you do. I think Graham does great at trying to relate to you guys, but it seems like you just make fun of him. It seems like you are trying to shut him up. So I don't write much about it anymore.
Thank you. I think so too.

That only makes me understand my Aikido even more. I understand by reading on this forum many different types of Aikido or ways if you like. I understand enough to know which ones I would enjoy and which ones not, which ones I would enjoy and learn something useful from and which ones I would not.

Although it would probably never happen yours is one I would definitely enjoy and learn something useful from.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:37 PM   #247
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

I wish you well Graham. You seem like a decent guy. Everyone should be free to explore and enjoy their practice.

My position is not singular to you even though several want to try and make it so. It's not even my position. It was created here on Aikiweb and Ebudo.
For both clarity and a non-partisan review it calls for anyone (this includes a laundry list of some heavy hitters) who claims to understand what Ueshiba was saying or even just aiki, should -by the very nature of that understanding- possess unusual power and skill.
It will save everyone needless time and energy in reading and sifting through if that power and skill is vetted by people in the Budo community. If upon examination, these people are no different than your average Tom, Dick, and Mary sandan next door..it saves many people some traveling time.

This is beneficial to everyone, is not prejudicial to any one person and should be welcomed. It was what Budo people did for generations, now brought to the internet age. As a process; it is in place with everything from your car mechanic to your local contractor. Though in budo, it appears only a certain type routinely object.
Dan
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:26 AM   #248
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wish you well Graham. You seem like a decent guy. Everyone should be free to explore and enjoy their practice.

My position is not singular to you even though several want to try and make it so. It's not even my position. It was created here on Aikiweb and Ebudo.
For both clarity and a non-partisan review it calls for anyone (this includes a laundry list of some heavy hitters) who claims to understand what Ueshiba was saying or even just aiki, should -by the very nature of that understanding- possess unusual power and skill.
It will save everyone needless time and energy in reading and sifting through if that power and skill is vetted by people in the Budo community. If upon examination, these people are no different than your average Tom, Dick, and Mary sandan next door..it saves many people some traveling time.

This is beneficial to everyone, is not prejudicial to any one person and should be welcomed. It was what Budo people did for generations, now brought to the internet age. As a process; it is in place with everything from your car mechanic to your local contractor. Though in budo, it appears only a certain type routinely object.
Dan
I wish you well too my friend.

Your position is yours, anothers is anothers. I know of no 'heavy hitters' in any budo world for that term to me is egotistical.

I know not of Ebudo either.

I claim to know what I know and relate a lot of it to the teachings of O'Sensei and some of his students and their teachings, thus Aikido. As I have done so for many years yes I do have a certain amount of skills and ability which some may call unusual power and skill. Those who call it that are the ones who create the significance for to me it doesn't matter.

Saving people time and energy as you call it is easy. Realize this is a forum for sharing views and not some stage or laboratory or private club. (or battlefield for that matter)

I fail to see how 'vetted' has anything to do with it. In fact in my experience so called experts vetting is mostly a waste of time. It's good for ego but other than that worthless most of the time.

I fail to understand either any relationship to to effort and travelling time. In your world and many others you may have 'attracting others' to come and do what you do as a reason for posting and thus use it as a promotional tool, that is not my world and not my reason.

Your views on beneficial to everyone belong in your world not mine.

Your analogy of throughout history and budo that has been the way is once again in my view faulty at best, limited.

So my conclusion is this: You can have your views of how things should be and how things should be done and how therefore it would lead to this and that and you may share those views with however many others you like. But trying to foister them on me is a waste of time. I do not live in your 'budo world' nor do I want to. I respect it and let it be.

What good does it do for you or any of your disbelieving friends to know what you claim to about me anyway? How would that benefit you in any way? In my view it is a purposeless pursuit for you claim to be happy doing your way.

Those who claim to be searching for unusual power and claim to want to learn how to control and believe it is all about control are not welcome in my Aikido. Therefore that alone tells you I do not have what you are looking for.

As I have said before it's all about purpose. Those with other purposes can learn somewhere else that befits their purpose. In life it is no different for me than in the dojo. Those of good heart and purpose who ask then I am there, those who ask for other reasons then no.

Enjoy your journey for I have up to now certainly enjoyed mine and will carry on doing so.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-28-2012, 09:19 AM   #249
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Okay Graham
Your words and thoughts remain inconsistent. You have chosen to participate in a community and have entered into discussions of values and results in practice. You have stated repeatedly you have a superior understanding to pre war aiki and talked about power. That was your choice
I never cared until you participated in discussions of what I do -calling me a fraud. In your reply here you again attempt to reduce my efforts in teaching the community to promotional rhetoric.

Okay
Let's discuss throwing and skills and abilities to actually do so using aiki.

In both pre and post war Ueshiba stated his atemi can kill
Let's say I try to punch you in the face while not only retaining my center but it's moving in several different directions in a flash and in the space of two seconds I kick you and punch you four times.
Lets say that each of those kicks or punches have enough power to not only knock you out, but break bones and also eliminate the effective use of any limb you offer to "connect" with me. Now for clarity I have concussed people, or given them whip lash -even from a wrist grab-using about a tenth of my power.

Let's say, every time you move to stop me... I do not follow
Every time you touch me, I stick to whatever body part you send and I hit you agin and again...

Using the understanding of Ueshiba you claim to know...how do you stop me, much less ....how do you throw me? How do you -with the superior understanding you decided to claim here - in love bring a peaceful resolution to this conflict?

So, you have claimed to know what I do and you walked away from it twenty years ago into something superior. That means you can do what I do and now are better. Great.
Describe for us, how I can do these things? What is allowing it to happen what is the actual skill you are going to use to prevent it from happening?

I am interested in how your superior understanding of Ueshiba would stop Ueshibas pre-war form of aiki. I contend you cannot answer and will not answer....and have no ability to even try.
But, this is a discussion of throwing and aiki right? I not only know the answer to both sides, I demonstrate it and teach it under critical review...within the community and out.
Thoughts?
I am all ears.
Dan
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Old 01-28-2012, 09:53 AM   #250
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Okay Graham
Your words and thoughts remain inconsistent. You have chosen to participate in a community and have entered into discussions of values and results in practice. You have stated repeatedly you have a superior understanding to pre war aiki and talked about power. That was your choice
I never cared until you participated in discussions of what I do -calling me a fraud. In your reply here you again attempt to reduce my efforts in teaching the community to promotional rhetoric.

Okay
Let's discuss throwing and skills and abilities to actually do so using aiki.

In both pre and post war Ueshiba stated his atemi can kill
Let's say I try to punch you in the face while not only retaining my center but it's moving in several different directions in a flash and in the space of two seconds I kick you and punch you four times.
Lets say that each of those kicks or punches have enough power to not only knock you out, but break bones and also eliminate the effective use of any limb you offer to "connect" with me. Now for clarity I have concussed people, or given them whip lash -even from a wrist grab-using about a tenth of my power.

Let's say, every time you move to stop me... I do not follow
Every time you touch me, I stick to whatever body part you send and I hit you agin and again...

Using the understanding of Ueshiba you claim to know...how do you stop me, much less ....how do you throw me? How do you -with the superior understanding you decided to claim here - in love bring a peaceful resolution to this conflict?

So, you have claimed to know what I do and you walked away from it twenty years ago into something superior. That means you can do what I do and now are better. Great.
Describe for us, how I can do these things? What is allowing it to happen what is the actual skill you are going to use to prevent it from happening?

I am interested in how your superior understanding of Ueshiba would stop Ueshibas pre-war form of aiki. I contend you cannot answer and will not answer....and have no ability to even try.
But, this is a discussion of throwing and aiki right? I not only know the answer to both sides, I demonstrate it and teach it under critical review...within the community and out.
Thoughts?
I am all ears.
Dan
Dan. Why do you say such things?

1)Superior understanding to pre-war aiki. Never said that.
2) Call you a fraud. Never said that either.
3) Reduce your efforts in teaching the community. Never.
4) Claim that I know what you do and walked away from it twenty years ago. Never happened either.

So these four things are not true. First I would ask you to retract them before any discussion especially 1,2and 4. Point 3 sounds subjective unless you know something I don't.

Apart from that I am willing to discuss any point with you.

Regards.G.
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