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Old 01-17-2012, 11:52 PM   #1
Ellis Amdur
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Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

In one of the other threads, this link was posted, and seems to have passed without comment

Lord have mercy! This is extracts from the Takeshita diary. Notice some of the entries.

1. 1925 - Ueshiba and Inoue demonstrating "Daito-ryu judo" - I truly love this, because it illustrates how Japanese can be a lot more casual about terms that Westerners froth at the mouth over.
2. 1927 - Gejo Kosaburo, as part of Ueshiba's entourage, demonstrating Yagyu Shinkage-ryu (which Ueshiba used with various students to encapsulate principles of aiki, notably Tomiki Kenji pre-war and Hikitsuchi Morio, post-war).
3. 1928 - at this point, there is already a move towards independence from Takeda Sokaku. (whom Takeshita, btw, knew). There were probably far more ramifications to Ueshiba's attempts to be independent than have been written or discussed anywhere.
4. 1930 - Takeshita describes himself teaching Mochizuki!

There are only a few excerpts here - what a rich historical record remains to be translated and studied!

Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-18-2012, 02:45 AM   #2
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

The entry from September 26, 1926 was of interest to me, as it listed "Rear Admiral Kichisaburo Nomura" as being one of the officials who visited the Aiki-Jujutsu practice. In 1941, Admiral Nomura (ret) was the Japanese ambassador to the United States, and had the unenviable task of delivering his country's declaration of war a few hours after the Pearl Harbor attack. One of those funny coincidences of history, I guess..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:12 AM   #3
AsimHanif
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

I've found this a few weeks ago and posted to our dojo blog. Very interesting paper.
http://www.isdy.net/pdf/eng/2008_05.pdf

Our dojo blog is here:
http://potomacaikikai.blogspot.com/

Ellis Sensei. Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful contributions.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:26 AM   #4
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
In one of the other threads, this link was posted, and seems to have passed without comment

Lord have mercy! This is extracts from the Takeshita diary. Notice some of the entries.
I've noticed it some days ago. Lots of interesting people involved.

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Old 01-18-2012, 07:51 AM   #5
fred veer
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Actually the passage that I find most interesting is:

December 15, 1929

The number of techniques in memorandums of Aiki-Jujutsu has reached more than three thousands.

I wonder if this memorandum still exists.

There is the film rendezvous with adventure where O-sensei says that there are more than 3000 techiques in aikido. I was thinking this was exaggeration or a wrong translation. It looks this might not be.

Interesting is also that this corresponds reasonably with the number of daito ryu techniques that Kondo sensei mentions as part of the menkyo kaiden.

This leads to a lot questions and without the memorandum to no answers.
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:20 AM   #6
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
In one of the other threads, this link was posted, and seems to have passed without comment

Lord have mercy! This is extracts from the Takeshita diary. Notice some of the entries.

1. 1925 - Ueshiba and Inoue demonstrating "Daito-ryu judo" - I truly love this, because it illustrates how Japanese can be a lot more casual about terms that Westerners froth at the mouth over.
2. 1927 - Gejo Kosaburo, as part of Ueshiba's entourage, demonstrating Yagyu Shinkage-ryu (which Ueshiba used with various students to encapsulate principles of aiki, notably Tomiki Kenji pre-war and Hikitsuchi Morio, post-war).
3. 1928 - at this point, there is already a move towards independence from Takeda Sokaku. (whom Takeshita, btw, knew). There were probably far more ramifications to Ueshiba's attempts to be independent than have been written or discussed anywhere.
4. 1930 - Takeshita describes himself teaching Mochizuki!

There are only a few excerpts here - what a rich historical record remains to be translated and studied!

Ellis Amdur
The standard (most agreed upon) number of techinques of Daito ryu are over 2,800. That's documented all over the place. All Ueshiba did here again, was to verfiy what he was teaching...Daito ryu.
What I found more fascinating is the list of Ikkajo at 166 when Takeda's own kid has ikkajo at 30. This once again highlights the fact that the scrolls and teaching between schools vary remarkably. Pretty weird for a supposed koryu working from an established...cough...corpus of waza.

I also found it interesting that at the meeting mentioned in 1940 they were discussing granting of a sho and chu mokuroku. These would most likely be the Hiden mokuroku and Goshin yo no te, of Daito ryu. This is later then when Stan discussed him no longer awarding scrolls. I wonder whether it was just the title that was used, or scrolls were actually issued. It does add weight to the previous discussions of the name continually changing; Daito ryu, Aiki-jujutsu, Aiki-budo and again Aoi ryu. We have seen the Daito ryu scrolls with Aikibudo attached. Aoi ryu comes up here yet again, but no clarity is offered as to what it is (Ueshiba claimed it was his family art). Since it is common to put lineage on mokuroku, it would interesting to see a Daito ryu Hiden Mokuroku with aiki being mentioned AND his family art name attached to it.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:55 AM   #7
fred veer
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

dear Mr Harden,

Actually the english translation reads: That includes the explanation of Dai-ikkajo, 166 techniques in all,

If the book, includes the dai-ikkajo, it does not mean all 166 techniques are the dai-ikkajo.

If the 166 techniques are the complete hiden mokuroku (ueshiba version) it still includes dai-ikkajo.

You would need to check the japanese text to determine the exact meaning.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #8
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Quote:
Fred Veer wrote: View Post
dear Mr Harden,
Actually the english translation reads: That includes the explanation of Dai-ikkajo, 166 techniques in all,
If the book, includes the dai-ikkajo, it does not mean all 166 techniques are the dai-ikkajo.
If the 166 techniques are the complete hiden mokuroku (ueshiba version) it still includes dai-ikkajo.
You would need to check the japanese text to determine the exact meaning.
Hello Mr. Veer
Given that he referred to Budo Renshu, as Ikkajo and as only 166 waza, it fails on both counts. It would have to be stated as being the Hiden Mokuroku of 180 techniques in order to be consistent. And of course with the changing back and forth between names and syllabus, I realize he could make it mean whatever he wanted it to mean. We are only talking comparisons.
At any rate, it is consistent with the wide disparity in the art. If you have read a DR mokuroku you would know how vague it is. Other than a listing you can count, you can just about make up anything you want it to mean due to the way it is written. Trying to pin something down goes to a more complete viewing, participation, books, articles, interviews and video of the various schools. What is interesting is the lineage. More than likely something would have had to have been changed on the later mokuroku he handed out with some other arts name on it. I think that would be interesting to see for the record.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-18-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:48 AM   #9
Alfonso
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

this PDF

http://www.isdy.net/pdf/eng/2008_05.pdf

found here:

http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/Aikido+History

has some more , the Aioi-kai is called Ueshibas' support group , Takeshita's own reference. I think maybe K. Ueshiba (Aioi is some sort of family art is his quote) may have been glossing over something more potentially complicated?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:52 AM   #10
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
this PDF

http://www.isdy.net/pdf/eng/2008_05.pdf

found here:

http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/Aikido+History

has some more , the Aioi-kai is called Ueshibas' support group , Takeshita's own reference. I think maybe K. Ueshiba (Aioi is some sort of family art is his quote) may have been glossing over something more potentially complicated?
Thanks
That would explain the confusion. I will have to go over some notes.
Dan
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Old 01-21-2012, 04:04 PM   #11
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

I was reading something recently based on Takeshita's dairy and ran into this commentary
...at the time when Ueshiba caused a sensation in Tokyo, Aiki-bujutsu included real
skills against other martial arts as well as theory.
Many of these exhibitions (including those by Takeda) were done with Judo, and Koryu people. I honestly do not believe that the way Aikido is practiced today that the majority of Aikido-ka or Daito ryu people could pull off anything like them. Well, I don't think they themselves could pull off that same level of "wow factor" in todays environment either.

Ueshiba's theory as we now are seeing was not only deep it was based on classical principles heretofore left unaddressed in most aikido literature though we are finding it in Japan as far back as the mid 1400's.
Dan
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Old 01-21-2012, 04:26 PM   #12
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Just saw that I wrote 180 techniques in post #8 for the hiden mokuroku. Of course I meant the 118.
There is another interesting related article I am looking at defining Ueshiba's training of Judo counters that looks strangely organized like the hiden mokuroku; when grabbed with one hand, when grabbed on sleeve and collar with two hands, etc.

Fumiaki Shishida's review of Takeshita's diary

Also interesting was yet another notation of fees in Takeshita's dairy and authors commentary.
At that time a college grad made about 30-35 yen a month
The Kodokan charged two yen a month
Takeda charged three yen
Two different sources Sugino and Takeshita say Ueshiba charged 30 yen and broke his word to pay Takeda his three yen
Yet oddly enough another source says training at the Kobukan (Ueshiba dojo) was only three yen.
All agree that Ueshiba made a promise when he became a teacher to pay Takeda, three yen per student-not bad considering his travel expenses and length of teaching-then bailed on that promise.
This is still the most likely reason for him chasing Ueshiba down for an answer and for the letter delivered asking why Ueshiba as lying about him. Also the most reasonable explanation for taking over the Asahi dojo and ranking Ueshiba's own student above Ueshiba- an extreme loss of face.

Ueshiba's part in creating his own myth
Kisshomaru quotes Ueshiba in the early twenties just after being given his teaching creds as going on and on about aiki.
Tomiki is quoted as early as 1928 stating that Ueshiba would never publicly discuss where he got his art from, (saying this with a smirk)
The author speculates Ueshiba also covered up training in Yagyu Shinkage ryu because he couldn't stand to be seen as being under yet another teacher. (This also might explain why his swordsmanship sucked in those older films- so does his jo- and looks better later on).
Last and equally interesting is that it appears none of the names chosen when he was trying to form his own art were his own, they were always someone elses choices;
Daito ryu jujutsu-under Takeda to 1922
Daito ryu aiki-jujutsu- 1. in Sep 1922 suggested as the formal name by Deguchi
Daito ryu jujutsu-removed the aiki and went back to jujutsu according to Takeshita
Aioi ryu aiki-jujtusu- 2. Support circle called the Aioi-kai, declared a name change, February 17, 1928.
Aiki bujutsu- 3. Takashita diary June 14, 1929:
Aiki budo- 4. Name appears on several scrolls handed out in the 1930's ad photographed by Aikido Journal
Daito ryu aiki-jujutsu-1932' According to Shioda; the name the art was called when he joined.
Aikido- 1942 Name was invented by a committee as a category to differentiate it from Koryu or Gendai budo being displayed at an Embu. Ueshiba was enamored with it and kept it.

Realize that all this was going on while he was handing out Daito ryu scrolls...(Takeshita mentions voting on the awarding of Sho and chu mokuroku in1940) that Ueshiba attached his own various names to in its various forms over Daito ryu mokuroku.

As I stated earlier, lest people question Ueshiba only, realize that Takeda's son created his own art; Daito ryu Aikibudo and declared himself soke of that, and proceeded to hand out scrolls and rank in both Aikibudo and Daito ryu Aikijujutsu-an art which had no known soke. All while he insisted this is a koryu and unbroken transmission!

Very weird indeed. I will be so bold as to suggest the reader consider that were this an actual koryu with established lineage and mokuroku floating about Japan...NONE of this would have ever occured!

Stanley Pranin is uploading an incredible amount of previously unseen material. I get daily emails. All for $30 a year. It is hands down the best deal for accurate and interesting information on aikido and Daito ryu I have seen. On top of which you can email him, ask questions and get answers!

Dan
_____________________________________________
1.Tomiki said "Master Ueshiba gave us the impression that the name of aiki was established by Takeda and Ueshiba working together or by himself. … He gave us the impression that the term aiki was added into Daito-ryu jujutsu from Ueshiba's age, like Daito-ryu-aiki-jujutsu." [Shishida
(Ed.), 1982, pp.1-2]
a. On the other hand, Kishomaru Ueshiba also strongly suggested in his book of aikido [Ueshiba, K., 1982, p.556] that Ueshiba used the term aiki first and advised Takeda to add it to Daito-ryu jujutsu.
b. Sagawa's father has the use of Aiki in his notes as early as 1913. Aikido Journal interview
c. Sagawa notes the use of aikijujutsu when he was 17 prior to Ueshiba even meeting Takeda. Aikido Journal interview
d. Kodo notes that jujutsu, Aikijujutsu and Aiki-jutsu was used by his own father when he taught him prior to anyone knowing who Ueshiba was AIkido Journal interview

2. We can understand from this that (the Aioi-kai) it became actually independent from the Daito-ryu-jujutsu. However, this declaration was not effective in solving Ueshiba's agony over his betrayal of Sokaku Takeda, Ueshiba's master in the Daito-ryu-jujutsu. Takeda sometimes visited him even after that so as to demand an explanation as to why Ueshiba did not pay the commission of 3 yen per person as agreed to when Takeda qualified Ueshiba in 1922 to teach Daito-ryu-jujutsu on his behalf [Editorial Department of the Aiki News, 2002, 269]. However he did receive 30 yen from each pupil, when the starting salary for a college graduate drew 35 yen around 1928 [Editorial Department of Aiki News, 2006, p.179, p.101]. This was just a problem to be resolved in private, as the name change was a one-sided declaration by the supporters represented by Takeshita. Ueshiba's tactics seemed to be to avoid the master when he visited.

3. Takeshita's dairy "After lunch, I strolled around Akabane and Mita areas. From 5 p.m. we had a konwa-kai, a gathering for a friendly discussion, at Takahashi's dojo or hall. There were about 20 participants. From today we decided and declared that the name of our martial art would be Aiki-bujutsu."

Last edited by DH : 01-21-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:51 PM   #13
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Three small points:
1. I discussed the 3 yen issue with Stan, and one thing he noted is that it was, based on the language in the agreement, pretty confusing who would fall under the 3 yen rubric of students. Would that be all the people in the group classes in Omotokyo? All the "drop ins" in the Aioikai. To be clear, it's a minor curiosity of historical speculation, but it is conceivable, on Ueshiba's side, that were he to pay all the 3 yen fees that might be construed as being owed, he'd be in debt up to his eye-brows for the next century. All of this highlights Dan's general thrust here, that a conversion of koryu style teaching to a modern style, the latter being a work in progress, could have led to myriad complications that neither man could work out. There may have been no way for the two of them to have any book-keeping that would satisfy either.
2. The thing that hit me with the Aioikai. This was created by Takeshita and associates. Takeshita met Sokaku. Admiral Miura was once a student of Sokaku, challenged Ueshiba in some fashion as what he view as a traitor, was managed handily, and became a supporter. You've got a list of army and navy guys, the closest thing to an aristocracy that Japan had at the time. One line of thought that a couple posters touched on (in several threads) can be taken a step further. What if either the initial pressure - or one very strong impetus - for a break with Sokaku came from Takeshita and associates? Ueshiba was referred to as "master," but honestly, I'm familiar enough with the social status involved here that Ueshiba was, to some degree, what he was for Deguchi - a pet tiger. A bujutsu shihan, in Edo, and up through early Showa, had authority in regards to his students in the dojo. But he couldn't tell the daimyo or hatomoto how to run the fief, or a general how to run an army, or a politician hold to run an election or what bribe to take either. These top level military men were bringing Ueshiba in some heady circles. Demonstrating before the emperor (actually representatives, as I recall), no less. Takeda was not, as he'd been slandered, a killer or psychopath, but there is no doubt that he was a difficult guy - sort of reminds me of Ron Paul at times, that grouchy uncle who just doesn't give a damn, and says whatever he feels like Perhaps part of what squeezed Ueshiba was a bunch of generals and admirals and politicians telling him, "Morihei - uh hem, sensei - you gotta lose the old man. He's an embarasment. He cheats at shogi. He nikkyos taxi drivers when he thinks they overcharge him. He's got a naked blade in his belly band and keeps cutting himself. He does make great dumplings, but he eats with his back to the wall and makes everyone taste the food first. You want to keep hanging with us big guys? You gotta lose the old man." What I find interesting is how agonizingly long this break took. Here, in the early 1930's and even before, the Aioikai with Ueshiba has 'broken" with Sokaku. Yet, Sokaku kept visiting the dojo in the 1930's, and Kamata, one of the deshi of the time, stated that one of his greatest impressions of Ueshiba is what a devoted student/disciple he was to the old man when he did come for a visit. And in the Omoto incident in 1935, Sokaku dispatched people to check on Ueshiba well-being. I think Osaka was one of those breaking moments, like a guy whose been thinking about leaving his wife for years, and then, one day, he runs away from Osaka and starts a new life with a floozy in Tokyo (ahem - or something like that - I forget if I was talking about Ueshiba or . . .)
Anyway, I think, therefore, the money was a concrete manifestation of an agonizing love-hate relationship between one man who could only accept things on his own terms, and another who couldn't live by that. (if I ever write an autobiography, I actually went through something very similar, so I have sympathy for both sides - but from the deshi side, if you've got an independent heart, the pressure can be intolerable).
3. Dan, one error you've made re Butokukai and "aikido." Interestingly, the name "aikido" did not apply merely to "Ueshiba-ryu." They had this bigger problem. There were all these schools, with names like jujutsu, aikijutsu, torite, kogusoku, koshi-no-mawari, kenpo, etc. All the koryu grappling systems, each with their own name and own ryu. AND, gendai jujutsu groups as well. And whatever they called that section of the Butokukai would piss the others off. So the word aikido was originally a grab-bag term to hold all the non-judo grappling systems, koryu and gendai.
Which could mean a number of things like:
1. The Butokukai didn't give a damn about the meaning or roots of the word - it just had no "copyright," so it was useful.
2. They were suggesting that every jujutsu school SHOULD have "aiki" (Hahahaha - I couldn't resist that one!).

Ellis Amdur

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 01-21-2012 at 05:54 PM.

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Old 01-21-2012, 06:23 PM   #14
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Hi bud
Another more positive point that spins off on why the long departure
What if;
He was agonized... out of loyalty? We have to consider positives as well as negatives. It is just as possible that while all the guys were saying "Distance yourself from your hard to control old uncle, that they also were advising him to ditch Deguchi...and HE was the hold out? I know I flipped on you, but it is possible.
Ueshiba's nephew was supposedly pissed off about that and in Takeshita's notes it recounts a troubling letter from Ueshiba's nephew.
Ueshiba could very well have been a little bit of the "crazy old master" himself, (I am sure of it) so these world wise men who were taken by him were trying to handle him in a similar fashion that Ueshiba was trying to handle Takeda.

The money issue
It made no sense to me either. If it was 3 yen, and everyone was charging 2-3 yen, then he is stuck and teaching for free. Takeda deserves his cut too, but where does it balance out? Then, I read Takeshita saying Ueshiba charged 30 yen and told Sugino to charge 30 yen? That's unbelievable. At todays rates a college grad averages $4,000 a month. Come on. Something is off there. Even at that rate (30 yen to 3 yen) a tenth of $4k is $400 a month.... for budo?
We think we pay high prices? I just started charging $20.00 a month because utilities are so high and I have to remind people. I want to go teach back then.

The aikido name
Thanks, not a big difference from what I initially read, it was a category that he liked and kept it- I had thought it originally just for his demonstration. In fact if I have time I want to look that up, I was sure that was what I read. Not saying ..it was correct, but that it was what I read.

Overall the work is fine but it is partial and there is too much conjecture. Hell, the author even states he got many of his opinions from reading forums. I was hoping for an expansive dry read.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-21-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:46 PM   #15
DH
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Edit:
Quote:
They had this bigger problem. There were all these schools, with names like jujutsu, aikijutsu, torite, kogusoku, koshi-no-mawari, kenpo, etc. All the koryu grappling systems, each with their own name and own ryu.
What "schools" were named, torite, kogusoku, koshi-no-mawari, kenpo?
Example: we both know that Koshi-no-mawari is a subsection of Takenouchi ryu, Kogusoku a sub-set of YSR... and many others not a school in itself. So I lost your meaning here. Were they doing demonstrations off a section of a ryu's teaching and calling it a ryu?? That would be like them announcing the second set of TSKSR as Gogyo "ryu." Or was it just too damn confusing alltogether?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-21-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:59 PM   #16
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

No, what I mean is the Butokukai actually had sections: the kendo-bu (section), the naginata-bu, etc. And all the old jujutsu ryu-ha were, believe it or not (I do, I do), subsumed in the "aikido-bu."

Cause if they were in the "jujutsu-bu," then Takenouchi-ryu koshi no mawari, the Araki-ryu kenpo/torite-kogusoku/yawara (there were all these factions, each with their own name), the Shosho-ryu,. etc. would feel slighted that their ryu's appellation wasn't chosen.

So they chose a made-up name (that just, by the by, made Ueshiba's group look important - wonder about the back-stage politics on that one), that no one, to that date, had claimed.

Best
Ellis

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Old 01-21-2012, 07:09 PM   #17
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Oh, and I like your positive spin. As I say, I've been through something quite similar - although neither I nor my teacher were important, the dynamics were similar. And because there was no money involved, that's one reason I see this as a symptom rather than a cause. I think I wrote in HIPS that the money was a symbolic manifestation of mutual confusion and sense of betrayal.

Based on my own experience, I can imagine Ueshiba whipsawed. One day, feeling that at last he can breathe, and then the old man shows up, and shames him in front of his own students, his own family, and he wants to kill him, and then come the money demands, and he's been giving away money to people he knows, and he doesn't have it, and should he could the kids in the Omotokyo marching band, and then the old man and he work out, or he's shown something, and bam - he's back in a state of ecstatic disbelief, because just when he thought he had it all, he realized there's another layer, and the money doesn't matter and the verbal abuse doesn't matter, and then his wife quietly asks, if they'll be sleeping in the store-room very long this time, and . . .this goes on for years and years.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Ueshiba skulked out of Osaka, and when the train arrived in Nagoya, he gets off, and starts doing a victory dance on the platform ("Hahahahahah - this time he'll be so pissed off he'll throw ME out. HAHAHAHAHAH!" and his deshi are looking at him funny, so he just waves them back on the train, he goes out and gets drunk, hooks up with a couple of girls (the power of aiki), gets rolled, gets his wallet stolen, shows up a week later, dazed, broke, with a big grin on his face).

And one of the things I am most fascinated, is that Ueshiba continued to go to Osaka, Inoue taught in Osaka, while Takeda was there. They just didn't cross-paths. (Although I could run with that one too).

Best
Ellis

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Old 01-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #18
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Ueshiba skulked out of Osaka, and when the train arrived in Nagoya, he gets off, and starts doing a victory dance on the platform ("Hahahahahah - this time he'll be so pissed off he'll throw ME out. HAHAHAHAHAH!" and his deshi are looking at him funny, so he just waves them back on the train, he goes out and gets drunk, hooks up with a couple of girls (the power of aiki), gets rolled, gets his wallet stolen, shows up a week later, dazed, broke, with a big grin on his face).

Best
Ellis
Elllis,

Perhaps you should take a leaf out of Shiga Naoya's book and write some historical fiction: a biography of Ueshiba that reaches the parts the other biographies wouldn't dare to touch.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 01-21-2012, 10:23 PM   #19
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Elllis,

Perhaps you should take a leaf out of Shiga Naoya's book and write some historical fiction: a biography of Ueshiba that reaches the parts the other biographies wouldn't dare to touch.

Best wishes,

PAG
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:49 AM   #20
fred veer
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

The 3 yen discussion might simply be the result of limited thinking. Takeda taught mainly by workshops and considering his accounts adminstered this very well. When Morihei Ueshiba recieved his teaching licence nobody considered the growth which is possible by changing the instruction method.
The 3 yen for small number of students is a fortune for the large number of students. I would assume this 3 yen is a one time payment for new students similar to the registration of new shodans at the hombu dojo. Takeda merely saw the succes of Ueshiba and read the contract as 3 yen per student. Ueshiba might think his additions to the curriculum and different teaching model entitled him to renegotiate the contract. This takes of course requires agreement on two sides and Takeda does not look like the flexible type. If ueshiba teaches a class of cadets or soldiers for a hourly fee, the 3 yen for 100 students does not work. Ueshiba also cannot ask the army/navy for a 3 yen per student contribution next to his fee. The fee structure would probably work the same for all teachers, no exceptions.

This efffectively makes the contract void as it does not work in the changed circumstances. Does not mean that Takeda can be made to understand it, while Ueshiba's network of high profile backers shields him from any claims that takeda can make. The Osaka incident is the one case where takeda can make his case, but this was a choice of Takuma Hisa based on the superior technical quality of takeda sensei whose techniques worked on anybody, while ueshiba only showed the om his own uke's.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:38 AM   #21
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Well, I think assigning it to "limited thinking" is sort of non starter if you want to have discussion. We're not obtuse. We have limited information and we are trying to get a better grasp through a broader view, from different people who were in contact with them.

A defense from contracts broken or becoming null and void if a situation changes often lose in court and in life. It is the responsibility of the parties to notify and discuss changes or run the risk of being held liable.

As for changes being made
The reason I mentioned the possibility of Ueshiba actually trying to be the loyal one (I am not saying it is true, just considering possibilities) is that he could have easily just said "I'm done with you." to Takeda and also to Deguchi and just walked away.
His break-up with both instead was very strange. Truly weird
With Deguchi: he bails-and pisses off other supporters
With Takeda:
He brags on this "Aiki" always "aiki" whihc he got in 1922
Then as early as 1925 he stops talking about Daito ryu
Yet he continues a relationship with Takeda to 1937
He continues to clearly teach the art's skills
He all but forges his scrolls by using a Daito ryu mokuroku that he now puts any number of names on. Personally I find this act, treacherous and inexplicable.
The reason I mentioned how free wheeling other people were in regards to adding scrolls and changing the syllabus, being general affairs director today and soke tomorrow, and the actions of Takeda's son; creating a different art and going back and forth in ranking people is that it might in fact exonerate Ueshiba. There might actually have been some closely held knowledge about origins and goals of Daito ryu heretofore unexplored or examined.
Dan
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:37 AM   #22
fred veer
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Dear Mr Harden,

I meant limited thinking on the part of Takeda sensei and Ueshiba sensei, the first unable to accept that the contract was not valid in the changed context, the second in his inability to discuss, or maybe even verbalise, the real problem with his teacher.

It is no aspersion on your qualities, which I would like to study more closely if circumstances would ever allow it.

I agree with your views. I think the problem is more in the line of an inability to examine, verbalise and discuss the real issues which is a failing common among many modern day aikidoka's, let alone the more budokas with a late 19th century or earluy 20th century mind set.

What is logical for normal thinking, problem solving oriented people, is impossible by the limited mindset of many, otherwise educated people.
I work at a technical university, even there it is often impossible to address the real issues or get a consensus of the nature of the real problems.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:14 PM   #23
Dan Rubin
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
So they chose a made-up name (that just, by the by, made Ueshiba's group look important - wonder about the back-stage politics on that one), that no one, to that date, had claimed.
According to Stan Pranin's interview with Minoru Hirai (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87), who was O Sensei's representative to the Dai Nihon Butokukai, the naming of the new section did not come easily, and it was the Kodokan's Tatsuo Hisatomi who argued for the name "Aikido", because the name was totally generic and did not refer to anyone's personal art.

So I've wondered how O Sensei could have appropriated "Aikido" for his own use and still been respected by his peers. I've wondered if, instead of declaring "That is what I will call my art," O Sensei really said "That is the term I will use to refer to what I do," or "My students can call my art anything they like, to me it's just aikido."
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:08 PM   #24
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

Well, fwiw - the old jujutsu schools would have (and did) highly resent being put in one basket. Torite is not kogusoku is not yaware is not jujutsu. Some, like Yagyu Shingan-ryu, which would be in this group (yoroi kumiuchi) could easily see themselves as kenjutsu/bojutsu - sogo bujutsu.

So three years later, the Butokukai is suppressed by the Allied occupying forces, and the old koryu men, aside from merely trying to survive, no longer care about something as un-natural as the European Union (which I also hope will be remembered as a bad dream in the not too distant future - right, Greeks and Germans are exactly the same!) - so they ignored it.

And the term aikido, which seemed natural enough to Ueshiba's art, was a free-floating term that no-one was using. Whereas aikibudo, aikibujutsu, whatever are terms that are "suffixes" - appended onto another term - - - - --like - - - -- - - - - - - - Daito-ryu.

Aikido is a stand-alone term like judo or kendo. Perfect for the purpose of cutting a historical connection. Who really thinks of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu or Kito-ryu in regards to judo. Some of judo's most famous kata are actually deblooded (no gokui) wholesale incorporations/thefts from those previous ryu. To be sure, Kano, menkyo in both systems could appropriate them if he liked - but deblooded they are. And this is a subject that has only been recently re-discussed.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-23-2012, 05:50 AM   #25
Amir Krause
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Re: Oh My Gawd - did no one notice this?

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Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
According to Stan Pranin's interview with Minoru Hirai (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87), who was O Sensei's representative to the Dai Nihon Butokukai, the naming of the new section did not come easily, and it was the Kodokan's Tatsuo Hisatomi who argued for the name "Aikido", because the name was totally generic and did not refer to anyone's personal art.

So I've wondered how O Sensei could have appropriated "Aikido" for his own use and still been respected by his peers. I've wondered if, instead of declaring "That is what I will call my art," O Sensei really said "That is the term I will use to refer to what I do," or "My students can call my art anything they like, to me it's just aikido."
Except that according to Minoru Hirai himself, as told to his studnets (in Korindo Aikido), he was not Ueshiba representitive in the Dai Nihon Butokukai, rather it was his next job after working for Ueshiba as "general manager". There are some facts to support this claim:
* Minoru Hirai was a teacher of his own standing, even before he met Ueshiba.
* Minoru Hirai got "senior teaching titles" from the Dai Nihon Butokukai, those titles were assigned to him persoally not to Ueshiba.
* The story of a new department explained above, refering to Aikido as a generic name - nothing specific to do with Ueshiba.
* And finally, why whould the Dai Nihon Butokukai bother with a name for a minor new martial art and invent a department for it, I beleive there were other groups of similar size which formed at the time. Why would Ueshiba be the only one for which the Dai Nihon Butokukai invented a name?

Amir
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